Female Narcisists and a Narcisistic teenaged daughter

[Kims Man]

It's curious to me that most of what I've read states that most Narcisists are male.  My ex-wife is a narcisist,  her mom also,  and one of my daughters. They all demonstrate remarkable examples of most of the narcisistic behaviors I've read about.  I thought this was unusual,  being females,  but also thought that being in the position of "mother" gave them more power,  influence and control in their families,  especially with regard to the children.  I see from this board,  that there seem to be quite a few narcisistic women,  and that it may not be as unusual as I had thought. I wonder if narcisism is more insideous and hidden with females?  My extended family has no clue partly because I also hid my wife's behaviors because it was embarrassing to me.  (not so much that her behaviors were embarrassing,  but my tolerance of them was embarrassing.)

I'm discouraged to see narcisistic behaviors in one of my teenaged daughters.  Her Mom is her idol and beyond reproach by anyone,  regardless of the fact that her Mom is just as harsh and abusive towards her as anyone else.  I divorced her Mom,  after enduring almost 20 years of an emotionless,  affection barron and loveless marriage.  When I moved out,  my daughter stopped talking with me.  I guess that was the greatest offense possible.  How could I not love and idealize her idol?  Couple that with her sense of absolute rightness and religeous self righteousness and I haven't been able to get her to talk with me except to pass the telephone to someone else.  

Have any of you dealt with a narcisistic child?  Is a parent who's not their idol just a source of narcisistic supply?  Can a father be just a "thing" to a narcisistic daughter?  I read something about narcisists not caring about being loved.  (or having a loving relationship) And I wondered how that was possible,  til I saw it explained that some narcisists see other people as things,  just sources of narcisistic supply.  Pick some "thing" around you,  such as your television.  Do you care if your television loves you?  I wonder if a father can be no more than a "thing" like a television to a narcisistic daughter.  I have no idea how to deal with her or have a relationship with her and she seems to not care about having a relationship with me either.  (or with her television.)

[rosencrantz]

My understanding is that there are a lot more men who are narcissists.  But statistics can lie and maybe women just don't get diagnosed as such - or perhaps it's the politics of it all.  Diagnosis isn't a fine art.

http://www.sntp.net/references/normal.htm

And most people who are narcissists don't get diagnosed anyway - it's the victims who need the help!!  (A victim twice over!!)

But I think adolescents are another kettle of fish entirely.  I think narcissism might be part of the normal developmental process.  (Anyone know a teenager who isn't egocentric and self-absorbed??!) And any child who's lived with an nMother whilst growing up is going to be in a bad state one way or another - eg cut off from feelings, self-harming, etc etc...???  

Plus, an Nmother requires everyone to relate solely to her - so you don't stand a chance if you're not even in the house!!!  I never asked to speak to my father when I phoned and always asked immediately for my mother if my father answered.  I was so well trained.  So well trained that she could then reproach me for not being nice enough to my father.  Groan!

However, I am also wondering how you supported and defended your daughter during her childhood and early adolescence if, as you say, you hid her mother's behaviour from the outside world?  If you did nothing, perhaps your leaving was the ultimate betrayal?  If YOU found youself in the lion's cage, how would YOU feel about the lion tamer leaving???

The children are the real victims.  Adults choose their relationships.  Children don't.

R

[claudiacat]

I don't believe that narcissists don't care about being loved.  In fact, in the information I've read, the reason they are narcissistic in the first place oft is because they were victims of narcissists themselves, and the cycle goes on and on.  

I believe they are desperately in need of love, but have no way of understanding true intimacy and love as "normal" people do because it was never shown to them.  So they act out in ways that control, manipulate and intimidate, in hopes of getting the love they have truly never experienced.  But they are unable to be loved, in the way they really want.  (Too deep?)  Anyway, this my perception of the Ns in my family. Perhaps that is why I am able to be patient with my mother even after my "N" awareness.  I feel sorry for her, that she has never been able to experience love.  This helps me separate my rage from her.

[Tinkergirl]

Kim's Man....

You are right on all fronts.  I can speak from the point of view as a daughter of an N mother, whose father left, and I was headed exactly down the path of being an N myself due to my mother's influence over me (and absence of anyone to stand up to the N mother, especially a dad).  Although I despised her, I emulated her behavior because the same-sex parent has the strongest influence on the child....especially teenagers...and like the other poster replied, if you "hid" her behavior or made excuses for it while your daughter was younger, she may act out against you for leaving her with the mother's mess.  Also, she is still a child and only wants to be loved and she probably fears losing her mother's love, no matter how twisted it may be.

It wasn't until I was 18, freshman in college, where I started to gain my own perspective of my own life and wrote my father a nasty note....repeating all the terrible things my mother made me believe.  My father jumped in his car and drove 18 hours the day he got the letter, got a hotel room, and we stayed there for days until we hashed it all out.  That was over a decade ago, and now I live near him, share my time with him, his grandchildren with him, and i couldn't love him more.  we escaped the N's wrath, and i don't begrudge him one bit for leaving me as a child.

There are millions of N women who are never diagnosed...i think it has become part of our culture (US anyway) that women are cold, self-centered, loveless...especially wives.  You did the right thing to save yourself, but now you must wait until your daughter is ready to come to you.  Continue to be available to her, always be honest with her, but don't put her in the middle or badmouth her mother.  Focus on redirecting her from becoming a full-blown N by writing her letters if she won't take your calls.  Finally, you should also prepare yourself for the possibility that she will never realize that being an N like her mother is hurtful, or wrong.  I know many women who ended up "just like mom" and continue the generations of abuse.  But don't ever give up on her...she is and always will be your child.  Just loving her and telling her you love her is the best you can do until she does reach out for you.  Don't mean to preach, this is just my experience.  Take care of yourself and good luck.

[Nic]

Thanks all of you in this particular discussion!
Rob! You could be my twin, I swear sometimes you blow me away! As I read your post it was like ticking off a check list.  I was taught the same things you were.
As in all dysfuntional families it is very important to the parents that the real mess stay within the family itself.  Growing up in this kind of family is like going to dysfunctional boot camp.  I can recall feeling like I was a freak in training.
I am an adopted child, and can remember very early on, as young as four years of age, that some of my parents' reactions to stuff was way off.  I could not relate to them at all on many issues.  Some people think the way we are is genetically determined.  If that's true, then I'm glad i'm adopted!!  Seriously, for N parents, like you say, it is absolutely crucial that the child "thing" be absolutely loyal.  Loyal to the parents and their way of seeing and perceiving the world.Their "voice" not the child's.

I love people, that's the way i am.  As an adopted child it felt very strange to me that my parents did not like that about me at all, "especially mother", she despised that about me.  As a child, how was I to know?  She would physically remove me from other people's presence whenever she felt i was talking too much, showing others affection or just simply enjoying myself.  I would get the common rebukes and put downs, such as 'One never talks to strangers that way" , "One never disturbs strangers like that"  I mean I was cut-off  not only from expressing myself, but cut off literally from having contact with other people unless my parents, especially my mother approved.  Of course her rebukes were" in my best interest"
I loved people so much that often on holiday i'd latch on to all sorts of people and literally enjoy them so much I'd fall in love with them.  Sometimes entire families..  Now that drives an Nmom crazy!!! I would take down their phone numbers and promise to call or write if they gave me their address.  I would invest this affection freely..and my parents hated it. " Holiday friends are not like real friends Nic"
They hated it because they had low self esteem, because they wanted me for themselves, because they were sick.  I do agree  with previous posts, that  Nparents desperately want and need to be loved.  They themselves are caught in a cycle of downward spiraling toxic emotions they can only respond to by using basic emotions.  What I like to call stone age responses  or "survival emotions".  My parents for example are stuck in the stone age emotionally.  I've been ranting at them all my life about how wonderful it would be for them to get help and change. To no avail.  They're comfortable in the stone age and as far as I'm concerned they can surround themselves with as many dinosaurs as they want.

I love the way you answer how people can be "things" to narcissists Rob.  I'm a thing for my parents.  They were married ten years before they decided to adopt two boys.  We have both felt like appendages on many occasions.  I've always maintained that I was just another attempt for them to be normal or to look good to others.  Imagine how hard it must be for a narcissist not to have kids when every one else does?  I was a lot of fun for them until I got a personality of my own..i can hear my mother say: " Honey, something's wrong with Nic..he said "NO" to me!" and my dad answering, " Don't worry dear, if it's broken we can always get another one..do ya still have the receipt?"
Honestly, yes I think I was an object to them.  Two cars, Two houses, Two incomes, Two kids ( boys! at my mother's insistance, and besides she could choose! why risk it with a girl?)
Oh and yes, absolutely ditto on using other people to carry messages to and fro within our own family.  Indirect communication as a tactic not to get yourself involved.  I would add that paranoia is also a very essential ingredient for an N parent.  And absolutely yes to blaming.  Why take responsibility for your life when you can adopt two kids to blame everything on!
I honestly would have loved for my parents to have been able to fix themselves, at least gain some insight into their own mess instead of blaming my brother and I for it all. They're blaming me mostly these days, my brother's in the good books when i'm in the bad books and vice versa..divide and rule you know! But for whatever reason it didn't happen, what a waste of time for them.
I ,like you Rob, could have been such a grand mess.  But somehow, the adopted child that I was did not and will not continue the cycle.  Unfortunately not the same can be said for my brother, who, although adopted is passing on the torch to his wife, his son and his daughter.

Why have you and I been spared then Rob?  I think God had something to do with that don't you?
Kind regards,
Nic

[Alan]

I read that 1% of the population is N and of that 75% are men.  My ex is an N and she has trained her daughter well to the point the kid was the emotional center of the house.  I had no control.   And I have seen this kid manipulate both of us. Mom semi deserted the daughter when she started to get her N Supply from me.  The kid said I controlled her mother, not letting her think for herself.  I didn't do anything except engage in conversation and Mom just did her attach thing.  

The kid has N tendancies, concerned for her looks, relates nothing gained in study, just disses people she doesn't like, never liked me bec I was "different", but it was actually Mom, along with her inappropriate behavior (walking around topless with me and a 13 y/o in the house).  When mom cold shoulder'd me, she went right back to the kid, whom also never liked my daughter (my kid is sane and balanced).  

Mom is an alky,  and this summer she asked me if it was OK if she could have a friend over and consume some wine coolers. Mom literally takes the viewpoint that if she's going to drink, she might as well do it at home.  My answer was it's your daughter and it's your call.  The kid is 16.  The apple never fell from the tree.