Who I am? & some recent conversations with ex.

[mudpuppy]

Ami,

Hope that I did not butt in on the thread

If nobody butted in on threads we would all just be talking to ourselves. 

mud

[mudpuppy]

remember when y'all used to tell me I was crazy ( I may be paraphrasing that ) and he'd never change

 Yes I do and that's one reason I have tried to temper my remarks somewhat regarding borderline Ns, which I still beieve your ex is.
 Nor do I ever believe (despite a little hyperbole earlier) that change is impossible in any case. Like you I believe with God all things are possible. But absent divine intervention, for those people who are not on the borderline, but pervasively display full scale NPD or psychopathic behaviors, the evidence is overwhelming that in nearly every case they simply do not change and are just not capable of the behavior your ex is. They may theoretically be capable of it (I believe myself that they are, as I believe that NPD still involves volitional behavior) but practically speaking it simply doesn't happen. And as you rightly caution, the risks of attempting to engage with one who is impervious to peaceful overtures, can lead to catastrophic consequences.

Ex stopped abusing me when I stopped allowing it.
He started listening to my truth when I got brave enough to speak it, then shout it, then speak it again.
And he started being kinder and learned humility after I did....

I would that these words applied to all of us, but for most people here;

Ex abused, assassinated the character of, financially harmed, threatened and generally did all he or she could to destroy the lives of those who try to stop allowing the abuse.
He or she listened to the truth and then countered it with an avalanche of the most venal and despicable lies imaginable to anyone who would listen.
And he or she responds to kindness and humility with a good stiff kick in the teeth as they perceive kindness and humilty as weaknesses to be pounced upon.

I asked him to make recompense, to undertake acts of apology and compensation. And I know he feels better for doing them, now he 'gets' what it means.

That is wonderful and I'm glad he chose to make amends, but most people's experience when asking those things is to suddenly find their head inside a distincly hungry and rude lion's mouth.

 Don't get me wrong, I respect and admire your tenacity in sticking it out. And I admire your ex for the very difficult effort he has put in to change. i think that is a wonderful example for those who are struggling with the rare one who actually will put in that effort. My only point was that we all tend to extrapolate our own experiences into generalizations at times; me, you and others. But the cliinical evidence I have seen points to your ex being the rare exception who proves the rule, whereas someone like lighter or Brigid or mum or mia or CB or so many others are stuck with what an Old Testament writer might call a beast of the field; conscienceless predators to whom the kindness and humility of others lead them inexorably to their regular noonday snack. I'm not saying we shouldn't be kind and humble only that (sticking to the animal theme) we should also be wise as serpents while we're being as harmless as doves. And a wise serpent knows that a gimlet eyed galoot coming at him with a big stick probably isn't interested in a game of fetch.

mud

[Certain Hope]

I'm glad he chose to make amends, but most people's experience when asking those things is to suddenly find their head inside a distincly hungry and rude lion's mouth.

Yup.

And a wise serpent knows that a gimlet eyed galoot coming at him with a big stick probably isn't interested in a game of fetch.

Yup Yup.  I had one of those gimlet eyed galoots. Had to nab that big stick and chase him off with it.

(((((((((((((((Write)))))))))))))) 

[mudpuppy]

Had to nab that big stick and chase him off with it.

Should have just bit his femoral artery.

mud

[WRITE]

Mud I can't even remember all your story now about your involvement with NPD but I don't think comparing Ns is any more use than comparing any other behaviour traits really. There's no generalising. Especially with NPD- one of the biggest problems is the inconsistency and the charm then the switch-off....

People are individuals and though they get lumped together because of their similarities they are all different. Good and bad, right and wrong. It's impossible as you say to generalise and yet- people do.

Yes, there are some psycopaths in our world, but no they aren't everywhere. My ex has done some pretty inexplicable and mean things, some destructive things over the years. But I'd be demonising him if I said he was evil or all bad even at the worst of times.

He just doesn't get it often, he's just broken.

It was realising that which made me work on how to communicate and not expect him to think and behave like me.

And I'm not saying anyone else should do what I do/did.

I'm just really happy to see above the clouds with my family. It's been a long time coming.

And I still say- whatever someone else does: it's my personal integrity which counts, that's what I'd have to live with later. I can be pretty mean myself sometimes....

most people's experience when asking those things is to suddenly find their head inside a distincly hungry and rude lion's mouth.

doesn't mean they shouldn't ask though does it?
Or say 'this is what I expect'.
Even if we don't get it, why not assert ourselves anyway?
What's the worst that can happen when someone has already torn up our life and trashed our confidence?

[Certain Hope]

I must say: there is worse which can happen when you declare to NPD that you require peace and no further disruption of that peace. I had to flee my home and get an order of protection. He made it quite clear that he would rule or I would not live.

Hope

[WRITE]

He made it quite clear that he would rule or I would not live.

it's always a difficult one where there's violence CH, because standing up to a violent person often escalates the violence at least in the short term.

But also staying with the violent person means suffering violence or the risk of violence too.

And for a tiny minority, whether they stay or go, they will be murdered, even where there are support services and law enforcement intervention.

I used to think ex would kill me not with violence, which was always an anger outburst and quickly over, but by driving me over the edge with stress. Sometimes I thought my head would explode, or that I was literally losing my ability to think and function. One year that was true too.

I still think it all came to a head the point I said 'do your worst- I don't care any more'.
And I meant it, things couldn't be any worse for me.

He doesn't rule your life now CH? I hope not.

[Certain Hope]

No, he doesn't rule my life anymore, Write... except for a fleeting moment, occasionally, when I wonder whether that's him in a passing vehicle. Very fleeting.

But he did for 2 years after he was gone... through fear.

Maybe he just wanted me to say, do your worst; I don't care anymore.

Yes, actually, I think that's just exactly what he wanted.

Love,
Hope

[Hopalong]

(((((Hope)))))

You must have gone through real terror.
I am so sorry.

He lives in the same town/city? 

Hops

[Certain Hope]

Dear Hops,

Thank you... ((((((((Hops)))))))
...sometimes I think that it didn't take a whole lot to bring me to feel like I was in hell. I was very sensitive.
And sometimes I wonder whether it was foolish of me to be so frightened. But he stalked and dragged me through court for a year following my remarriage, and my husband now - who began as  a "pshaw, he's just an old con-artist" kinda guy - experienced enough of his acid eyes and antics to purchase and install a motion detector light in our yard. And a shotgun. My shotgun. For well over a year, I'd go to the door and cock that gun into the darkness, just to hear the sound echo. That was one of my little steps to curing ptsd.
Husband still locks his vehicle in the driveway, too.
Yes, he still lives in the area, far as we know. Occasionally I check the local county court records online, to see what he's been up to.
There was a ticket this past spring, failure to wear a seatbelt. Showed he's still got my address on his driver's license. Figures.

Anyhow, I'd been through alot with my kids' dad, but never before experienced such a severe threat of immediate physical harm. And I hated knives... which N loved... and he'd used them before to leave me little signs of his dominion over me. (Leaving them at the very edge of the countertop, just as I'd asked him not to do, lest there be an accident, after just such a thing happened to my mother.) He let me know that he'd be thrilled to see just such an accident occur, by deliberately placing them there forever-afterwards, on every occasion when he was displeased with me.
I was in his head, Hops. [SOOOPH - Stay out of other peoples' heads!]
But I was there in that twisted mind, for better or for worse, because that was a matter of survival to me and my kids, and I knew - once he went so far as to let it out that he had the will and power to put a knife into me, not just let it happen by accident, the follow-through may not be far behind. I knew exactly what he wanted me to know - he had my life and my childrens' lives in his hands.
If it weren't for my children, maybe I would have said, "Do your worst, I don't care anymore." And maybe he would have calmed down and straightened up a bit and we would have been able to have the occasional, reasonable meeting of the minds. ::deep shudder:: and BLECH!!
The man is the walking dead and he wanted me to join him in zombie-land.
That's a fact.
That is what NPD does, imo.

I do not believe that NPD is just a label because I do not believe that NPD is a mental illness. It's a choice of will to submit to the death of one's soul, imo.
It's a deliberate decision to become a set of behaviors, not merely be influenced by them. I do not say that ex suffers from NPD like I would say he suffers from diabetes or depression or high cholesterol or anxiety.
He is NPD. That is his identity, not some condition which waxes and wanes.

Dear Write,

You have bi-polar, it does not have you.

I believe that true NPD has its hosts because they welcome it, entirely, inviting it to consume them and willingly choosing to let it be one with them.
Maybe you have been with your ex for so long, and from such a young age, that he does not feel so threatened by you... you don't tug at his mask, unintentionally even, with every breath.
Maybe your ex has mellowed with age and is able now to view you as the one person in his life with whom he can relate without obliterating them.
Maybe.
I do not know.
Ex is able to do that with his mother for the most part, in between the occasional rage and act of sabatoge.
But if your ex is npd, I do believe that you'll see a different aspect, if and when you become seriously involved in another relationship.
Ex would have been perfectly happy to live in my storage shed in the backyard, as long as he had access to regular feeding times... and I mean feeding on my soul, not at the table.

And here I am writing about npd again, not pretty blue fountains.

I think that's because the notion that a person can peacefully co-exist, with such a close connection to pathological npd, is... mind boggling and... rather abhorrent, and... here is the real clincher - it produces guilt. In me, it does.
I felt terrible for him. Tried to get adult protective services to look after him.
That only infuriated him. He hated it that I might consider him unable to help himself and proceded to show me, through the courts, just how adept he was. I didn't even try to get him to pay half the debt... carried it myself, rather than let him think that this was in any way about money issues.
I'm sorry, Write... it simply does not compute to my brain that a person can make a peaceful resolution with NPD. Maybe I need to believe that it's impossible in order to justify my own actions. Because I did love him and want to help him. I couldn't.
((((((((((Write)))))))) thanks for hearing.

Love,
Hope

[lighter]

I hear you both.... CH and Write.

I can't reconcile what I know about my N with your N,  Write. 

All N's are not equal. 

Some feel they are far far superior to other N's.

::clearing throat::

I would wax on about how he must have tendencies and not be completely NPD but.....

you're right.... it is just a label for behaviors.... and I'm no professional, in any case.

That you got through to your N is marvelous for your entire family. 

I'm happy for you. 

I just don't think it could happen for a lot of us and I know the next steps for me in trying with my N......

may be finding myself sleeping with the fishes.....

 or worse. 

I'd have to go into what the most cost effective way to dispose of me would be....hmmmm...

::shaking head::

But I digress...

I duck when cars ride alongside me too, CH.

If my N were to offer me something reasonable I'd run for cover.

I assume anything he says is a lie and maybe a lie wrapped in an enigma..... ::sigh:: you know the drill. 

I lock doors compulsively and my children know what the signs on them mean. 

Yes... I have signage on my doors for the children's benefit.

 And mine.

It's just a normal way of life now and I suppose I'll be doing it for the rest of my life and trying to feel normal about it. 

Sometimes I do. 

I've not been robbed of happiness and a life, just bc I'm living under threat from my N. 

Terrorizing me into submission is his game though......

 He admits it, lol!

Ruling through fear is something my N wants to do, is DRIVEN to do.......

he can bs me for a day or 2 but......

when I'm really aware and paying attention to him....

it takes him about 2 days of not getting his anticipated payoff before he turns into Mr. Hyde. 

Again.

What that means is.....he drops the facade rather quickly and begins trying to rule through fear.   

Again. 

It turned into a macabre good N/BadNn routine that would have been funny had I not been fearing for my life at the time.

At a distance, it's still not funny.... come to think of it,

bc ruling by fear makes sense to him and he doesn't understand that being kind and honoring a promise wou;dn't kill him, lol. 

Lord help him..... I think he, on some level, beleives it would.

Isn't that what all addicts have a hard time reconciling? 

Their fear of loss with the reality? 

The reality of what it would really cost them....

and the impact on their lives.  Hmmmm....

Maybe your N was broken down to the point of seeing beyond his own control needs, Write?

My N only go stronger and committed more crimes and made up more lies and reached his tentacles out farther to control more people or hurt them in order to MAKE me do what he was DEMANDING I do. 

He talked about it honestly..... they really do tell on themselves Mud.

Like any self assured tyrant does...... 
 
Expanding his campagn to hurt people I barely know...... etc etc etc

That's really quite something. 

All that responsibility on my shoulders..... eh?

I did finally just say..... 'do your worst, I don't care.'  (Of course, I had a TPO BEFORE I said it)

'Let me know how that works out for ya' is what I would say to him now.

If he's going to hurt those people..... I can only warn them and hope for the best, try not to look unstable while doing it. 

It's no my fault..... it's his and I'm curiouse to see the accountability chart, at the end of all this.

I'm curiouse to see if I'll be the only one held accountable.... for allowing myself to be victimized. 

That could happen, I know it could.

I've taped recorded so many hours of conversations I'm dizzy.

I've documented everything to the point of feeling.....

feeling.......

odd about it. 

But no one is going to say to me again..... 'why didn't you do __________ if he was doing __________' EVER EVER EVER AGAIN!

Never. 

I'll let everyone know how all this works out for me. 

The only thing I can say for sure, up to this point is,

I couldn't be Ok at playing his game. 

He salted me up and had me for lunch, laughing and shooting me sly looks of giddy glee when the attorney's and court reporter weren't looking.

Sick sick sick little lion and I put my head in his mouth, yes..... that I did. The only reason he sucked on it and didn't chomp it off is bc the court system is involved and he'd go away for a long long time. 

He still waiting.... biding his time, hunting and doing what he always has..... I gess hoping it's not being documented too.   

He still might do some jail time.... be quite surprised if he could help himself, quite frankly.

And that's just the thing...... I DON'T THINK HE CAN HELP HIMSELF.... or he would.

Broken? 

Yes

Beyond repair?

I believe he thinks he's the superior being to all the little people ......

there's no reason for him to change/fix himself if he views change as a lowering of himself.....

becoming a chump....

nice guys finish last and all that.

Healthy red blooded American men PREY on women, in his twisted world. 

And that;'s how he sees it.

S U P E R I O R I T Y

It's his right, neigh.... it's his destiny and his obligation to share himself with the world and take what he is entitled to....

RISK IS LIVING! 

RISKING OTHER PEOPLE IS BIGGER LIVING FOR MORE SUPERIOR BEINGS!

His right to take what he wants.... and what he wants are things he has no right to. 

He wants to take things

and people

and things from people.......

and people are posessions too....

yup yup yup.....



I used to say..... 'no victims, only volunteers'

I think I can now wrap my mind around this adaptation...

'victims as volunteers'

that made my stomach flip to read and I don't have time to ponder it proper now.

Just bc someone abused me......

doesn't mean they get to get away with it and continue doing it just so everyone can avert their eyes....

without guilt?

It doesn't mean I have no rights, does it?

Well,  maybe it does. 

For the courts that are in over their heads and tired of sitting over property disputes in divorce cases, so jaded and unhappy are they....

maybe?

I don't think so. 

We'll.....


just......



have......


to see,



I guess.......

Some day I'll tell you all a story.....


It's comforting to look back over the fates of tyrants,

historicallly speaking......

 ::nodding::

to see how it worked out for them. 

[WRITE]

here I am writing about npd again, not pretty blue fountains.

well you must need to say it or you would just bypass my ramblings!

And no blue water, I thought I told you that, it's just too 'Toilet Duck' 

I'm sorry, Write... it simply does not compute to my brain that a person can make a peaceful resolution with NPD. Maybe I need to believe that it's impossible in order to justify my own actions. Because I did love him and want to help him. I couldn't.
((((((((((Write)))))))) thanks for hearing.

you know the one thing that I know for certain with no doubt is that no one can help someone who isn't ready to be helped. Helping someone has to be a two-way process except for those short-term band-aid ropes of friendship we throw out or catch now and then.

You tried to help and he wasn't ready to be helped.

There's no guilt in that, no shame. He responded in a way which made you fearful for your safety and which compromised your finances.

I said about someone ( church guy ) being inexplicably mean to me recently 'he was pushing me away'. And your ex was pushing you away.

My ex pushed me away until there was a big enough space so he felt okay with us having a relationship again. If he had continued to threaten my safety and security and not knuckled down to make a good family environment for our son I would have had to do what you did.

So don't feel guilty, and thanks, despite your mixed feelings on this, for loving me enough to be glad things have worked out okay for me and for not judging my bipolar.

You've always been very strongly supportive CH and many times helped me see the big picture on something. Thank you.

He still might do some jail time.... be quite surprised if he could help himself, quite frankly.

back in england years ago this was the traditional measure of NPD, the person would be unable to stop themselves getting on the wrong side of the law, usually by adolescence that side would be showing, coupled with violence tendencies, and a person was already being identified as a psycopath.
Now the boundaries of these personality disorders seem to be re-drawn and they call that 'anti-social personality disorder' more and more.
NPD has become more the respectable side of the condition, businessmen being corrupt, people with OCD and sex addictions, people whose grandiosity outstrips their real capabilities.

That's what I mean by 'labels' really, they are quite slippery when trying to define people and individual psychology.

I believe he thinks he's the superior being to all the little people ......

there's no reason for him to change/fix himself if he views change as a lowering of himself.....

becoming a chump....

nice guys finish last and all that.

Healthy red blooded American men PREY on women, in his twisted world. 

And that;'s how he sees it.

S U P E R I O R I T Y

It's his right, neigh.... it's his destiny and his obligation to share himself with the world and take what he is entitled to....

RISK IS LIVING! 

RISKING OTHER PEOPLE IS BIGGER LIVING FOR MORE SUPERIOR BEINGS!

His right to take what he wants.... and what he wants are things he has no right to. 

He wants to take things

and people

and things from people.......

and people are posessions too....

unfortunately Lighter this is a big part of the American Dream and US culture, no that's even too narrow a definition- 'the culture of SUCCESS'.
Success being measured in scalps and money and feeling better than everyone else and feeling good the whole time....

But the US is 'kissup-kickdown' in a way the UK wasn't; I haven't lived in other countries yet.

The difference in my story and yours is two-fold though Lighter.
First, my ex wanted my son and I said take him.
I saw a painting a few weeks later called Solomon's Judgement, two women haggling over a dead ( in this case ) baby, and it seemed like a sign to continue, though my sister said I was 'weak'.

Second, I have had no involvement with courts or solicitors.
I find the whole court system deeply disturbing, my concept of justice is shaken by examining court procedures and the people who work in courts.
Now you and others here are getting some good people and service in this department and so I won't over-generalise, but I do believe that some situations, like courtrooms, give birth to narcissistic behaviour. By which I mean: your truth versus my truth and never the two shall meet reasonably. There's a vested interest in each person totally believing their version and acting their part which to me defies reasonable-ness.

So I have been lucky not to have extra problem-people thrust upon me as so often happens; I have heard people say they felt doubly violated, first the original offence, then the court procedures.

And I could have lost my son, if ex had taken him overseas or out of state. But he stopped fighting me once he had what he wanted, and now I see my son all the time.

I think he thought I was trying to take son from him, in his warped perception. I wasn't, though I was concerned.

The biggest luck for me has been all this illness in many ways, though. If I hadn't completely fallen apart I wouldn't have stuck with the therapy, and wouldn't have said and done a lot of the things which lead to me being here, and wouldn't have come to a place where it was just me and G_d.

You'll get through this Lighter. CH has, and I have. Loads of people here have.

Love to everyone.

[lighter]

Write... I have to believe I'll get through it but.....


the court system is everything you said and more.

My N says it's a game and he who tells the best story wins. 

I admit it..... I'm envious of your short trip around the court system. 

I wish it didn't have to be this hard: /

[Certain Hope]

(((((((Write)))))))  No more toilet duck     Thank you.

(((((((Lighter)))))))  It is worth it.

Love,
Hope

[WRITE]

I'm envious of your short trip around the court system. 

well I was told over and over that I was being a fool and I should 'take him for every penny' and 'make him pay' whilst simultaneously watching several people who were doing this get shafted by the court system as well....

I don't much care about money and power when it comes down to it though, I've been reduced to a place where all we have is ourself and belief. After that anything's possible.

Hang in there, your stuff is going as well as it could and will soon be over L ((((((((((((((((((((((((((((( ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))