The Difference betweens Words I say and the Feelings I feel

[Zen Boy]

Hi,

I seem to be has lost a 4.5 year marraige to a wonderful woman I adore.  But she wants a divorce because she cannot trust me and has seen a difference, especially recently, between some words I have said to her and others and what I say I really feel.

I am wondering if any of you have found yourself saying one thing, possibly not even conciously thinking about it, but meaning quite another when you were in a painful and anxious phase of life - which is where I was when I was wanting to reach my wife for a few months.  By "wanting to reach my wife" I mean trying to get us to add more intimacy and mutual understanding to our marriage.

Thank you,


Zen Boy

[Portia]

Hello Zen Boy: a bit like: "I hate you, don't leave me?"

[Anonymous]

Zen Boy,

She would divorce you because you are saying contradictory things?? That seems extreme. What is really going on in the marriage?

bunny

[Zen Boy]

Hi,

Thanks for responding - after I posted my note I found out that my wife had been posting here for a couple months...  What irony.

I thought I was on a road to recovery from my caustic and abusive criticisms - which had gotten worse as the last year progressed.  I have had therpaists tell me that I do NOT have a narcisissm disorder but that I need to learn better how to communicate, to be empathic of other's feelings, to listen better and that I HAVE behaved narcissiticly.  I have a strong type A personality.

I understand that I pushed my wife over the edge and the marriage is lost - I am unbelievably sad but it is hugely important to me to avoid making such mistakes in the future.  In fact, starting in November, despite deliberately being flirtatious with other women (an escape?)  and not communicating my true feelings (I think out of fear) to my wife, I had commenced myself to a full-timed course of self improvement.  I went to individual therapy, group therapy and continued/started marriage counseling and still do these things (except the marraige counseling as she has moved on).

But I didn't seem to realize that being flirtatious was inappropriate and that NOT TELLING HER I wanted our marriage to work and that I was committed to it was damaging!  I look back now and think I was lost or on drugs (I do not use drugs).

But despite wanting things to work and desperately looking to improve the intimacy between us, I kept pushing her away.  WHY???  I really did (and do) love and respect her.  But I did NOT tell her how much I wanted our marriage to work.  Instead, I made fatalistic comments like "It will work out if it is meant to be" and crap like that.

I think I was hoping to hear some positive optimistic response from her but only now do I see that she was beaten down by my months of criticism.  And I too felt beaten down by an inability to reach her and I seemed to stay fixated on my caustic approach to get her to respond to me.  I felt like we were butting heads.  Is this just my fault?  What was not working inside me?

Ahhh, we both suffered so much...

Anyway, I ask you all for advice - I cannot make such mistakes again.

Thank you

Zen Boy

[rosencrantz]

Sorry - there's stuff here that's not computing for me.

If you know your wife is using this board, are you trying to make a point for her to read?

You've told us very clearly that you know what to do and that you know what not to do.  What more advice is needed?  You've had the advice, now you need to do the work.

I understand how difficult it can be if you are in a quagmire and with every step you take to get out of the rubbish, you pull yourself back in.  Very confusing, very dispiriting.   I'd guess that fear is the key.

Well, here you are then, here's a bit of advice.  Stay in therapy until you've overcome your fears and stay out of intimate relationships until you've learnt how to treat women as members of the same human race as yourself.  And read some of the books on the booklist here.

From past experience, I'd guess that you've got a couple of years of hard graft ahead of you.  Good luck.
R

[Anonymous]

after I posted my note I found out that my wife had been posting here for a couple months...  What irony.

Zen Boy

Is that freaky    
or intentional   ?

Sorry Zen Boy, you'll have to (at best) forgive me or (at worst) ignore me. But I've got a terribly suspicious mind.  I'm guessin' intentional. If I'm wrong, so arrest me.

Seeing as you know she posts here, and I can make a wild guess who it is    

let's read the clues.
wife been posting for a few months
wife just leaving their marriage after 4 years,
husband is a shocking insensitive womaniser
been in joint therapy
husband with indifferent attitude

what do you want to say to her if she's reading this.

I don't swallow the "I was flirtin' cause I was hurtin'" bullshit by the way. You're married, you made promises, are you aman of your word????

I'll leave the gentle considerate responses to others and I'll say you're a self-centred b**** (by the way, I'm also speakin' to my husband here) who only cares about yourself.
Do you have any idea how you've demeaned and degraded your wife?
You may have an inkling, I hope so?

You're married!!!!   What does that mean to you. You say you're a type A personality. So what. Is that some type of justification?
So's my husband. But if his boss says "stop this such and such behaviour" he stops pronto. He's so ambitious, he wouldn't do anything to jeopordise his career. He can control every passion at work. But I say "stop this pronto" a million times and he ignores me or blames his weakness. It's all to do with priorities and what he values most.

Well, Zen Boy, I'm sorry you're hurtin'. (NOT)
What else did you expect?
Is it that you don't want to lose your doormat?
She didn't leave you! You forced her out!
When you brought these other women into your marriage!
How many times did she cry and hurt
and you just kept on goin' and doin?
How many times did you break her heart??
Huh? Huh? Don't tell me, I can imagine.
Time to grow up Zen Boy!
You want a wife, but do you want a thinking, feeling, human one?

Anyway, ignore me, I'm not your wife, but I'm a wife like your wife and
I only gotta ona morea thinga toa saya toa youa,
Grow up, get real, sort your shit out without hurting others, learn to have a heart and control your passions. And do it for yourself too.    
Or guess what, you're gonna be one lonely, broke, old, SOB later on in life. Doesn't take too many failed marriages to achieve that.

CG

[rosencrantz]

Crikey CG - Are you going to put that to music???  

Well, Zen Boy, I'm sorry you're hurtin'. (NOT)
What else did you expect?
Is it that you don't want to lose your doormat?
She didn't leave you! You forced her out!
When you brought these other women into your marriage!
How many times did she cry and hurt
and you just kept on goin' and doin?
How many times did you break her heart??
Huh? Huh? Don't tell me, I can imagine.
Time to grow up Zen Boy!
You want a wife, but do you want a thinking, feeling, human one?

That's amazing!!!!!  You've got a real beat going there!!!  And you really do have a nose for bullsh** - I go sniff, sniff, a little pong round here I think but you just go straight for it.  You don't even look for a nose peg.  Poooh!
R

[Zen Boy]

To the last two or three people, YES, I admit I was behaved abusively.  I admit I pushed her away and it was not her fault.  I feel ashamed!

And I certainly do not mind the harsh words (I deserve them).  

But can any of you offer me some guidance beyond just therapy and reading, which I have been doing feverishly for months.

I am trying to get some insight from others WHY I would feel great love for my wife, yet, do self-destructive or marriage-destructive things.  I certainly have the input of my therapist, books, etc.  And yes, I've been starting to read the books on this list (though a couple of them seem to have great negative critcism.)

But has anyone out there behaved this way or seen this kind of behavior but in a transient (i.e. non long-term) way?

For what it's worth, my therapist told me today that I do not behave like a N because N's never admit that they are wrong and are slow to make changes.  He admits I f##$d up some things but that I am making noticable progress towards growth in this area and am facing all the issues honestly.


Thank you again for your suggestions,

Zen Boy

[Anonymous]

To the last two or three people, YES, I admit I was behaved abusively.  I admit I pushed her away and it was not her fault.  I feel ashamed!

And I certainly do not mind the harsh words (I deserve them).  

But can any of you offer me some guidance beyond just therapy and reading, which I have been doing feverishly for months.

I am trying to get some insight from others WHY I would feel great love for my wife, yet, do self-destructive or marriage-destructive things.  I certainly have the input of my therapist, books, etc.  And yes, I've been starting to read the books on this list (though a couple of them seem to have great negative critcism.)

But has anyone out there behaved this way or seen this kind of behavior but in a transient (i.e. non long-term) way?

For what it's worth, my therapist told me today that I do not behave like a N because N's never admit that they are wrong and are slow to make changes.  He admits I f##$d up some things but that I am making noticable progress towards growth in this area and am facing all the issues honestly.


Thank you again for your suggestions,

Zen Boy

Zen Boy.

First Zen also means intuition and meditiation?   I don't see alot of that in you. I see a lot of excuses!!!! and but's!!!! I could highlight so many places where you excused yourself in your first 2 posts, but I won't. I'll let those ride for the moment. And man, in that way do you sound so much like my husband.      Barf barf, where's the bucket. But I beleive there's hope for everybody, WHEN THEY GET HONEST, REAL, PAINFULLY HONEST.

I'm not really interested in what your therapist says, by the way. Just my short reading of your style, he hasn't pegged you at all, in my humble opinion. So I definitely don't agree with him!!! And the some of the books having negative criticism, hey baby, get used to it. If the cap fits      ouch ouch

But forget  what I think for the moment!!!

Can I ask you a couple of questions??

How many other women have you had sex with while you've been married and in a relationship with your wife?

How many times?

Did you use condoms?

I don't see a lot of compassion or sensitivity in you, except towards yourself, but then I could be wrong, I guess

My observation, for what it's worth.
You've come onto a site that you know your wife posts to and you know she's gonna read your stuff and recognise you. So I think your playin' a very manipulative sympathy game.  But that's okay.   Let's play.

Honest opinion. I don't think you have behaved abusively. I think you are abusive and selfish. Big difference isn't there. Ouch, did that hurt. Could you say that? One puts distance between you and your actions the other doesn't. Ouch ouch ouch.
It's called lookin' at yourself honestly in the mirror.
It's called ditchin' denial.

Who made you like this? Who so invaded your rights and space that you don't seem to care about other people's rights and space anymore? It's all about you!!! and your own confused form of survival and freedom.

So come on. Truth please??????

How many, how often, and did you do it safely? Remember, only the truth now, otherwise you're choosing the lie, instead of being honest with yourself.

CG

[Anonymous]

Hey Zen boy,

Where to begin?

Let me start by not appologizing for a word I am about to say!

Well, I think it is pretty easy to guess who your wife might be.

I don't believe for a moment you are here by coincidence...  Do you want your W to read your posts?  Do you want to envoke some kind of emotional response in her? Or do you want this, her supportive community to take part in your pittiful manipulation! Are you hoping we will tell her "aww, he is so sorry... He really wants to change..."   Well, you can forget it!

We here are pretty danm familiar with the behavior you are exhibiting right now. Your words are very convincing.  I have no doubt that you actually feel pretty miserable.  But  We, here,  are not easily fooled.

Want some advice?  If you really want to start supporting your wife, find your own online community and stop invading and manipulating her safe space!  Even if you don't "intend" to manipulate her safe space, how do you think your presence here makes her feel?  Probably not happy and safe in dealing with her feelings!

Second, one of the myths about Narcissism is that one can't feel remorse.  In fact, N's can feel remorse.
But here's another suprprise.  You never loved her to begin with! No, you loved yourself.  You projected some fake image on your wife so that she would be exactly what you wanted. You still don't love HER for who SHE is.  You may think you respect her on a conscious level, but you have deep seeded issues with disrespect.  I think you are just devestated, as a Narcissist would be, when his sense of entitlement is rocked.  Your image of yourself is that you are a pretty good guy.  So, your feelings about your loss of entitlement over her are disguised as remorse for hurting her. Because this way you can still feel like a good guy has made mistakes.  You have your conscious motives  and thoughts which keep your positive image of yourself. But selfish motives are guiding your behavior.

You want to repent?  Stop making excuses, stop co-opting her support networks.  Just leave without anymore manipulation.  Keep going to counseling, read books.  Be honest with yourself.  But don't expect anyone connected to her to be a part of your support group or your healing.

[surf14]

Zen Boy;

You asked for insights concerning your behavior; I have just a couple of questions you might want to ask yourself although I think your best avenue for insight is through the therapy you're pursuing.

  In terms of your need to criticize your wife and act harshly towards her and push her away, this has to be coming from poor self esteem.  Look at your relationship with your mother; was she loving and validating?  Most assuredly not.  Did she ,odel to you how to love? If you can't love yourself aren't  you going to be threatened by your feelings of love for your wife?  I'm sure your feelings towards her made you feel vulnerable and caused you to want to strike out at her and hurt her at the same time you felt love for her.  Your behaviors are N-ish in their flavor so maybe going to some of the online information about narcissism  and looking into its origins, how it develops and manifests, might be helpful along with  working  with your therapist  to try to correct this if possible.   If you don't correct this I guarantee you will have a life of unsatisfying and disrupted relationships.  

I'm glad you are trying to understand this but I hope it goes beyond trying to salvage your relationship and is coming from a genuine desire to evolve into a healthier person.  If your motivation is a last ditch attempt at saving the marriage you're still into toxic control which is at the heart of the problem, and it ultimately won't work.  I wish you luck.

Surf

[Guest Today]

Zen Boy,

Here's my two cents:  Change your behavior.  Change how you feel about others (especially your family and those in intimate relationships) and then AFTER your change has been successfully implemented, take credit for the good work.

If you give yourself too much self-congratulation for thinking a constructive thought, for recognizing the problem, you may find that you've stopped too early in the change-process.

It's not enough to say, I know I screwed up.  The burden for change is on YOU.  If you want to be different, then choose to be different.  If you want to act in a new way, then think a new thought.

It's not easy.  It's not easy for anyone on this board to make a real, consistent, effective change.  What this board exists for is support for individuals who have had unique, yet similar experiences.  Yet each person here is responsible for their own changes.

What is it that you want?  It's like the old saying, do you want to be right? or do you want to be happy?

It's up to you Zen Boy.  Do you want to be the type of man your wife could have loved?  Successfully make the change in your SELF and sometime in the future you may be surprised at the unexpected happiness and warmth the world will provide to you.

[Anonymous]

Hey Zen boy,

Where to begin?

Let me start by not appologizing for a word I am about to say!

Well, I think it is pretty easy to guess who your wife might be.

I don't believe for a moment you are here by coincidence...  Do you want your W to read your posts?  Do you want to envoke some kind of emotional response in her? Or do you want this, her supportive community to take part in your pittiful manipulation! Are you hoping we will tell her "aww, he is so sorry... He really wants to change..."   Well, you can forget it!

We here are pretty danm familiar with the behavior you are exhibiting right now. Your words are very convincing.  I have no doubt that you actually feel pretty miserable.  But  We, here,  are not easily fooled.

Want some advice?  If you really want to start supporting your wife, find your own online community and stop invading and manipulating her safe space!  Even if you don't "intend" to manipulate her safe space, how do you think your presence here makes her feel?  Probably not happy and safe in dealing with her feelings!

Second, one of the myths about Narcissism is that one can't feel remorse.  In fact, N's can feel remorse.
But here's another suprprise.  You never loved her to begin with! No, you loved yourself.  You projected some fake image on your wife so that she would be exactly what you wanted. You still don't love HER for who SHE is.  You may think you respect her on a conscious level, but you have deep seeded issues with disrespect.  I think you are just devestated, as a Narcissist would be, when his sense of entitlement is rocked.  Your image of yourself is that you are a pretty good guy.  So, your feelings about your loss of entitlement over her are disguised as remorse for hurting her. Because this way you can still feel like a good guy has made mistakes.  You have your conscious motives  and thoughts which keep your positive image of yourself. But selfish motives are guiding your behavior.

You want to repent?  Stop making excuses, stop co-opting her support networks.  Just leave without anymore manipulation.  Keep going to counseling, read books.  Be honest with yourself.  But don't expect anyone connected to her to be a part of your support group or your healing.

Here Here! Touche! Spot On! Bravo! Applause Applause Applause!
CG

[Anonymous]

You can start with honesty.

Think about joining an abuser's recovery program.

Think about finding a new counselor who works with Narcissists and abusersr.

Give your wife a fair settlement in the divorce

Don't try to win her back.  Don't try to explain yourself.  

Be glad she saved herself.  

Respect her space and her requests.

Good luck

[lynn]

You can start with honesty.

Think about joining an abuser's recovery program.

Think about finding a new counselor who works with Narcissists and abusersr.

Give your wife a fair settlement in the divorce

Don't try to win her back. Don't try to explain yourself.

Be glad she saved herself.

This is right on target.  I agree completely.

lynn