Fell into a trap from the WORD TWISTER

[CC]

Boy, did I fall in the the N trap tonite.   My husband and I were having an argument, about something irrelavent but emotionally charged on both sides. My mother happened to call in the middle of it.  My H answered the phone, and she said, I was calling to tell CC that O.C. is on tonite, do you watch that?  He said no, she said well can I speak to CC? he said "she's not here, she's out shopping" (because we were in the middle of this argument and he knows that's not a good time for me to talk to my mom).  So she said "well, I'll talk to her later" and he said "okay" and they hung up simultaneously.  Mind you, I could hear the whole thing because my mom's voice is so loud.

WELL didn't I get a phone call two hours later with this message on my cell phone:  "I don't think I'll call the house ever again.  Your H was very rude to me on the phone" and proceeded to repeat this version of the same conversation:

Mom - "Hello [husband's name], Its B.  I'm calling to let CC know about O.C. being on, do you watch that?"

H - "No way, I don't watch that stuff" - (in a disgusted tone)

Mom - oh, well is CC there?

H - "No, she's out shopping" (& Hung up on her )

NOW, granted, my husband's telephone etiquette was a little lacking on this particular day, due to the nature of what was going on when the phone rang.   But do you see the word twister at work?  

So at this point I was furious, because I have listened to this message and I know differently.  So I , against my better judgement, called quickly back to defend my poor husband, and to fight yet another personal attack by the queen that I really have a lousy husband.

I begin to tell her that I happen to know my husband was not outright rude, that I was sitting right there, and yes, stupid me, told her we were in the middle of an argument but that I heard the whole conversation and had told him to tell her or anyone else that called that I wasn't home.  Boy did I play into that, now she has even more ammunition against him because we were fighting (she has speculated many times that she thinks he is aggressive and has even asked me if he was violent!!!).

Didn't she begin to get sarcastic - because now she knows I caught her in an exaggeration for her own manipulation.  Her defenses rose, and she became childish - screaming, OH, I FORGOT, YOUR HUSBAND IS PERFECT, HE WAS VERY POLITE, AND SAID HELLO MRS. SO AND SO HOW ARE YOU TODAY, ETC. ETC. and on and on. she hung up on me.  Then I called her back, now in a rage.  I told her that she expected too much from him, under the circumstances that were going on when she called.  She proceeded to argue with me about how he should have said this, that, and the other thing. "He needs to learn phone etiquette" AND she used the line, and I QUOTE :  I AM THE MOTHER.   As if THE MOTHER is a godlike thing, the queen.

I basically ended the conversation with, the bottom line is mother, that you cannot accept people for who they are.  You would handle it one way, I would handle it one way, and H handles it his way.  He was not rude, he just wasn't particularly chatty.  (And it makes her crazy that he doesn't kiss her ** when she calls like everyone else does).  She said "let's not fight" and said she had to go and hung up.

The irony is that he likes her more than I do.  He always has a kind word about her when I am angry about her manipulations.  "She's old and lonely" he says.  "Let her be, its all she has and it makes her happy".  He finds her entertaining.  I wish I could see the humor.  I know she will go on this week thinking what an **hole my hubby is and how I am blinded by foolish love.  

I fell into it alright.  I got overly defensive, she pushed my buttons.  This man is the only person who loves me unconditionally (the argument my H and I were having when she called is ironic proof, but I won't go into it now), and I can't seem to hold back from defending him mercilessly when she attacks.  She may have even been right, maybe he should have faked a little more politeness and at least said, "thanks B, it's nice to hear from you.  I'll let her know you called".  (But now am I just second guessing myself because of her??? typical N victim???)

I really wanted to take the advice I learned yesterday from this forum - ignore ignore ignore.  I just couldn't let it go.  I feel crazy right now.  Am I right?  Is she right? Does it matter? Should I have my husband call and apologize?  he would, if I asked him to.  That's how polite he can be.  Oh, what a tangled web.  I'm sooooo tired.

[mary]

I like the line ignore, ignore, ignore.  Ignore her and drive her crazy.  Has fighting ever really done any good with an N?  It is just attention and any attention...good or bad is N Supply.  

Take a deep breath and think how you have this wonderful man that loves you as you are...unconditionally!

[rosencrantz]

CC - I can't believe you got yourself hooked up in this.  C'mon CC, this is YOU talking!!! (I feel like I'm trying to yank you up out of a great big HOLE.)

YOU DON'T HAVE TO CONVINCE HER OF ANYTHING!

You don't have to convince her that your husband is a good guy, that she is illogical, that she is wrong, that you are right.  You  KNOW all this.

You are FIGHTING her.  You said you needed to think about why you are fighting...

(I'm still fighting for my right to BREATHE!)

You were already raring for a fight because you hadn't recovered from the last one.  Enter a fight with your mother and you KNOW you'll lose.  Maybe there was some truth in the things she was saying (there's always SOME truth otherwise there'd be no buttons!!) but she gives it a twist because she thinks the world is out to persecute her.

Are you still in 'should' mode?  She shouldn't think this way, she shouldn't do this to me...

Well, she does and she always will.  Every time you speak to her, that's just what she'll do.

I was reading books about bullying just before I finally alighted on NPD.  How to handle a bully - cos that's how I experience my mother.  The light dawned after nearly 50 years - like a light bulb being turned on above my head.  They are bullies.

With the added N twist that they drive you insane and take the light out of your eyes.

When you're in the middle of a conversation and you're too far down the line to simply ignore them, just say YES!  It won't hurt as much as you think!!!!

Yes mother, he was a bit abrupt - sorry about that.  (Mollified mother)

If we want to have contact with them and survive, we have to put own ego on one side; and not do anything to put the flame under theirs.

An Nmother is always upset when her needs are not met instantly.  They panic.  And then fuel is created to add to the fire...

"She's not here, shopping is more important than you are" (Strike one!); "I was here but my argument was more important than you are" (Strike two!); and we lied to you (Strike three  Boooooom!)

If you get involved in apologies, then you're adding fuel to the fire so I wouldn't bother.

Onwards and upwards, CC.

You know, there's something of the masochist in the child of an N.  We know we can get battered by an N - so why do we offer ourselves up for the sacrifice??  (Because that's the way love is expressed between us and love/punishment are all mixed up together)

And...oh, deeear.  I've just received another note from my mother and fifty of my buttons are jangling away already.  Gotta go!!
R

[CC]

dear fellow survivors,

thanks for your responses, and especially to Rosencrantz for her "snap out of it" slap in the face wake up call.  I needed that.  I was definitely having a weak moment.  Rob, I know what you mean, but I think catching them in the lie is only temporarily satisfying, because like you even said, then they just fabricate another exaggeration to cover up the first, and you are getting caught up in the cat and mouse game.  We just end up hurt again in the end, and exhausted.

I think the way to have gone was with R's suggestion, "your right mom, he was a little abrupt.. and diffused the situation."  Hindsight always 20/20.  Anyway, sure enough, my H is calling her today to smooth things over, whether its right or wrong.  In a way, I am glad, because it leaves me out of it, and it becomes about him and her, which is what it should have been in the first place.

[CC]

I really have to laugh, because here is the follow up on the situation from yesterday's argument.

My H called my mom during his lunch break, and apologized for being "abrupt" on the phone yesterday, saying words to the affect that he didn't realize he came across that way and would never intentionally offend her.

So Nmother called me a few minutes later, saying "Your H called me and see, I TOLD you he was rude, he agreed with me - YOU, CC,  have a tendency to EXAGGERATE things".  HA HA HA!  How about that for projection?  Luckily, I was in a better frame of mind, and simply said, "okay mom, I'm glad you worked it out.  I would appreciate it if you wouldn't put me in the middle next time, if you have a problem with my H, speak with him directly about it. " And now I am the wonderful daughter again because my husband provided her with her daily N supply.  She said she loved me before she hung up.  Only because she got what she wanted.  

I asked him about it tonite and he said he never told her he agreed he was rude.    

[Neko]

Hehe - you know, something similar to that very exchange is why my husband refuses to answer the phone after a certain time of day - because that's when my parents wake up on their side of the globe

It was nice to hear this story, because one of my survival tactics from childhood was to fight back, say what I thought - but this tactic is a stumbling block once you no longer live with your parents! Whenever I fall into the habit of arguing my position, I always feel drained, then annoyed with myself because I got "hooked" again. It's never gotten me anywhere as an adult.

Ignore and do what you would anyway - excellent advice in that other thread. I'll go carve that into a stone tablet and lug it around with me everywhere so I never forget

[rosencrantz]

I saw myself in you CC - I was giving myself the advice I gave you!!  (No slap in the face - my hands were too busy hauling you out of that  hole as I perceived it!  I saw no hysteria!).  Your mother sounds like a clone of mine!!

Well, I took my own advice, and answered all the criticisms and implied criticisms in my mother's note with as much truth and fact as I could find.  I didn't push back, I didn't imply a request for appreciation, I didn't 'punish' back, I didn't say 'no' - but I did 'tell the truth' and was as accurate as I could be.  I felt serene afterwards.  No buttons jangling.  My boat was still in calm waters. A semi-miracle! A 'normal' interaction.  Not perfect, but a big step forward.  I'm now sitting in a stupefied limbo!

My reward is sufficient calm that I'm a step closer to getting back to a normal life again.  A further step away from parasitic symbiosis.
R

[CC]

I can imagine the anxiety you initially felt opening that letter, I've experienced it many times. Like you said, all the buttons are jangling. What will it say?  Am I in trouble? (yes, even as a grown woman I have felt this) What have I done wrong now?  The trembling, the panic, the tightness in the throat.  

Very proud of your confidence in how you addressed that, rosencrantz.  "one giant step for mankind" !!!! You are working so hard. It is so rewarding, when we are strong, and we head them off at the pass.  Yet it is so difficult, because it goes against all behavior that we have learned (reacted) for so many years.  I guess it gets easier the more we practice it. I was doing so well for a while, until this last incident.  

Don't be afraid to share details if you feel they are pertinent, we can all benefit from specific examples and learn from healthy behaviors that are effective for others.  Do tell! If not this last letter, in the future.  Always interested to see the parallels in specific behaviors..

Oops time for therapy. More later..

[rosencrantz]

Yeah - one little nugget

"Why don't you... like a proper (daughter) would.  I'm sure your father wouldn't approve (of what you're doing to me)"

My father died earlier this year so that was a gem of twisted button pressing.  

I just said what I thought Dad would approve of without disputing her own version of what he might not approve of.  On reflection although it was good, it wasn't perfect (ooops - I'm not supposed to be setting myself up against the concept of perfection any more, am I!)

This afternoon I've been reading 'Trapped in the Mirror' - There's a chapter towards the end of the book about how to handle these narcissistic parents - it's really good.  I wasn't ready for it before but now it's speaking volumes to me.   I'd summarise it here but I realise I've got yellow highlighter two or three times on every page!!!

Here are a couple of quotes...

"Children of narcissists are confused about what is fair to self and parent.  They need to develop such judgement...The narcissistic parent is needy, which makes his child feel guilty for witholding.  But the child should not surrender to pressure that he go beyond his means and reason."

"Like all grownups, the parent must fix himself.  Narcissism is a sickness and a weakness...you...can bypass rage to feel compassion and regret.  But his problems require expert help."

"Hearing your viewpoint and giving it weight makes her feel demolished.  This is the narcissistic illness.  And why she must be lonely"

And also why my grief overwhelms me.  It is too late.  I cannot 'be me' AND save her.  It's one or the other.  Torn as I am, my husband and son dictate the only truly honourable choice.  I will save me.  
R

[CC]

And also why my grief overwhelms me. It is too late. I cannot 'be me' AND save her. It's one or the other. Torn as I am, my husband and son dictate the only truly honourable choice. I will save me.  

Oh, R, so moved to tears by your words.  I feel like you have expressed the very grief that I am feeling.  What a bitter pill to swallow, and I am really coming to the same realization just now.  Thank you for sharing your pain.  

In my therapy session this morning, we just discussed my need to let go of my need for her approval, and that it is especially difficult when I see my mother regularly.  I thought I had, but I am still in the clutches of that neediness.   I don't know how to shake it.  I can intellectualize the concept, but actual feeling that I don't need it is uncontrollable, and sometimes my actions (like this trap I fell into) show it.

I've been getting better at saying things to her like, "I know YOU don't like it, but I do and don't need you to approve" and following through, so maybe through these actions I will eventually really feel that way.  I've heard that tactic works with a lot of things.  If you practice it enough, you will begin to believe it.  I hope it works.

I probably should check into that book.

[rosencrantz]

I think, CC, that if you actually 'tell' her, then you'll find yourself being wound up and shot down in flames - every time!!  Is it worth getting a  battering?  Is there another way?

Remember :  

Hearing your viewpoint and giving it weight makes her feel demolished

And she can't afford to feel 'demolished' so she will rage or manipulate or capsize in some way to prevent you becoming 'you'.

As far as I am able to understand it, they just never will be able to acknowledge us, our feelings, our thoughts, our 'space' in the world as separate sentient beings.

The last time I spoke to my mother (just before I discovered the answers which lay in the concept of NPD), I really wanted her 'just' to acknowlege that I'd actually had a responsibility to myself (and to her!) to take a couple of days off (ie not be in telephone contact with her) in order to get back to 'coping' with things.  That's 'all'.  (The fact that she had manipulated the world and his dog in order to force me to phone and it hadn't worked was just by the by...)

She was able to say that, of course, she understood (because she's a reasonable and caring person) ... and then in the middle of her sentence she went into what I'd now call a narcissistic rage...without pause, suddenly, there's a change of tone and the words 'I'd treat a dog better than the way you treat me' - said in this 'voice' which I find absolutely terrifying (in a 'rabbit caught in the headlights' kind of way) and which I just can't find words to describe. And then she was 'off'.  Plunged into some kind of crazy whirlpool of accusation and hysteria.  

I should perhaps add that I'd spent a total of three hours on the phone that day and in retrospect, believe that she'd manipulated me the whole day long, from 10am until 9pm - like a fish on the end of a line, reel it in and let it out, until it's worn out so you can reel it in and land it.  (So there's the added shock that my  mother needed so much to punish me that she'd put that much effort into it!!)

But I realised at the end of that day that nothing I could say or do would ever reach her. If I held up a mirror to reflect back to her the reality, it damaged her; if I held up my own truth, she belittled it; if I attempted to reach her with love, she tried to destroy it.  What else is left??????  

This is who I am, this is how I live in the world, these are the ways I have found to communicate with 'the other' in the world.  Am I so innately destructive that just 'being' damages another human being??  I think I am not but it appears that, in relation to her, it is so.  And, on the other hand, if I get in the way of all that she does in terms of blindly belittling and destroying, then I'm setting my 'self' up for destruction.

Sigh!  I don't know where I'm getting to here - just - again - that we don't 'exist' for someone like this.  We get in the way of their damaging effect just by 'being there'.  And if we actually get them to focus on us by seeking THEIR attention, then we get the full force of it.  

You can never say 'look at me' to a narcissist and expect to escape intact.  But that 'knowledge' is what sets us free...

This is where I'm getting to : the concept of NPD doesn't just put a label on something, it gives us the key - we just (were it that easy!) have to find the door, stick the key in the lock - and open it!

They won't change - which means that we have to grieve for the parent who never was and give up trying to get their permission to live, to be, to have given enough, to have a mind of our own, to have priorities of our own, to be forgiven, and just to have a peaceful life.  Stop fighting them for it - just take it, it's ours to have and keep!!!  It's ALREADY ours!

One thing, tho - my mother constantly tries to manipulate me by referring to my father.  But SHE doesn't know what I know - that he expressed his love for me and made me know that there was nothing to forgive.  It's the one area of my life (surprisingly) where I have no buttons.  Fancy there being someone in this world who didn't need me to feel guilt or shame!  

So maybe the key is to find every button you possess and find a way of zapping it.  When you don't feel guilt, shame, pain or anxiety about anything, and you can love yourself completely and irrevocably, THEN you can have a relationship with your mother.  In the context of what our nParents have done to us in the course of our lifetime, they'll be a long time waiting.  

[Anonymous]

just got in from out of town this weekend and read your post, rosen.  Indeed, more words of wisdom.  I agree, to verbalize to the mothers "I don't need your approval" is probably not wise.  However, for the time being, it helps me try to convince myself until I actually believe it!!  I might add, that every time I say it, she says nothing, although it is probably not very kind because it essentially says "I don't need you anymore so butt out".  I guess it is also a futile attempt of thinking that if I say I don't need her approval she will stop saying things that push my buttons.  Not an effective plan, but again, a temporary insanity prevention on my part.

I related to your story about arguing with your mom on the phone for three hours and then allowing it to interfere with the rest of your day (unwittingly or not) just after your realization.  

We can distract ourselves with all sorts of activities, and the lingering effects of the manipulations remain with us regardless.  This is when I particularly notice physical symptoms.  Often it takes the form of a tightness in the upper shoulders and neck, as if mom is "pinching" you with her claws.  Have you experienced that?

Your description of how she manipulated everyone to get you on the phone that day was so interesting.  She couldn't stand to see you distance yourself, and felt out of control.  It was uncomfortable for her, so she squirmed and scrambled to get the control back, and found a way so she could feel "normal" again.  Its like watching an addict try to get their fix..
just like when my mom called back after our argument to say "see, someone else said I was right".

[CC]

It's me CC above, I forgot to log in sorry!!