The needs

[(un)seen]

If you find it interesting what I believe are human being needs. Here are my beliefs.

Every child is a natural narcissist. To stay healthy and not go into denial about what happens every child needs to be treated with a lot of respect.
If the child doesn't get what he or she needs and instead are espected to live up to the parents standards (that really is how they were treated themselves in childhood, or the lack of love and respect) then the child will have to deny everything about the true world around him or her and WILL have some sort of problem. Because the body remembers what happened, and KNOWS this is not right.
If the child gets what he or she needs, or another way of putting it, IS allowed to be an Narcissist, every child WILL by itself sooner or later discover the joy of sharing and giving. This is because EVERY human being has the capacity to live and love and not hurt anybody.

Even Adolf Hitler had the capacity to live and love, but because nobody saw him as a child, the parents really created a monster out of him. He did NOT get what he needed, and never had a witness to help give him hope of something better.
Adolf Hitler also was beaten as a child, in the most cruel way.
And that is no excuse, of course NO excuses for torturing and killing people, but this IS the reason why, and NOT because he had some biological error in any way.

Uns

[Ami]

Dear "Seen"
  I can't speak to Hitler. However, your point about every child being an N is profound.It answered a HUGE question that I have been pondering.
  I guess it is O,K, to be an N(as a child). The problem is when you STAY an N---Right?        Love  Ami

[reallyME]

yes.  This is why adults who have narcissistic tendencies and reactions, are said to be stunted at the 2 yr old and 7 yr old stages.  Those things that they needed at those ages, never were given, so, as adults they are back to behaving at those stages again, wondering why it only drives people away and hurts them, and still doesn't get them what they're after.

~RM

[Ami]

SO   is being an N evil?

[(un)seen]

Yes. I absolutely agree with that the adults stay at "stages" or whatever problem there is. The adult will all his or her life look for what he or she missed. Because we all need to be seen and have real love from people and that is ALL we need.

Ami, I am an agnostic. I really don't believe in evil. I believe in love of course. And I believe if you or I were treated bad, (and I believe be both were and Really me also? as children) not (evil ) but bad, the body will remember it in some way, and IT WILL come out, maybe even in form of physical disease and/or maybe in form of a socalled (I don't like the term, I find it stigmatizing) Narcissistic behavior.
The adult will never have the need to be hurting other he or she were seen.

I do believe in being allowed everything in the right circumstanses; being so much of an Narcisissist as one can express, because especially in therapy, every emotion is of value. And of course of every stage in life all feelings are of value.
Feelings will NEVER do anybody any harm if they only were able to come through already in childhood.

I don't know if that answered the question, Ami.

Uns

[changing]

Hi Unseen-

So is N behavior, if not evil, bad? And if Ns continue in their behaviors, are they if not evil, bad?

Love,

Changing

[(un)seen]

Changing

I am not Christian or religious in any way. There may be a God, but I am not taking it into concideration.

I think many cruel things happens to children and adults.

To say that an socalled N is performing evil is for me very stigmatizing.

If it is bad. -It was bad for me, and it felt cruel for me that my parents couldn't really see me nor hear me. I wasn't conscious of it, but I still suffer from this in many ways.
That does NOT mean that I find my parents to be bad or that I think of them as Narcisissists. It is enough for me that I know that MY parents are fully unaware of that THEY were not treated with respect nor with love. And the history goes on and on.

HOWEVEVER. My body remembers that I was not treated right and is storing so much of the rage and sorrow. And that needs to come out. Even if it feels like hatred. My feelings are of the most important value. And every feeling is stored within.

I try and answer after my belief.

Uns

[changing]

Hello Unseen-

I understand and agree.In this context, I don't see a need for any theological judgements- how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, etc. But I too have struggled with the N concept- I have been coerced and destroyed in many ways by an N husband who habitually acts in an N fashion- my instinct is to take care of myself, and think of the NH and his N actions as bad. It is a pathology it's true, but is there mens rea, "bad mind" and intent as well? I tend to think so and vilify and dismiss Ns for my own protection.
Something to think about.
Love,

Changing

[reallyME]

I do believe in God and I will tell you that, although narcissism is sinful, I'm not sure if I can call the people evil per se.  

What I believe, from situations I went through, the abusive people were merely living their lives how they always had.  Nobody really ever drew attention to the fact that their actions were not healthy or right...till i came along.  I am not a silent conformer by a long-shot.  When I see things that are cruel, feel wrong, are wrong, I SPEAK UP.  As I've said before, "whistle blowers" are not well-liked.  We are the ones who shout "HEY EMPORER!  YOU ARE MISSING YOUR CLOTHES!' in the midst of the procession that didn't dare to point it out.

The truth is though, nobody ever DID point it out cause it was safer to walk on eggshells, even in my family.  When I did point it out, i became the "bad guy" the one who was going to rock the boat, tip the applecart and not "leave well-enough alone"

i'm still that way today, but I do believe that the people in my life were just doing what "comes natural" and couldn't figure out for the life of them what MY problem was and why I couldn't just do like everyone else and cooperate.  Try cooperating with unspoken rules though...doesn't work too easily.

~L

[(un)seen]

Nobody needs to be hurt. Neither as children nor as adults. If one is capable of dismmissing someone who is hurting oneself, that can only be good, I believe.

But if one is NOT capable of doing so, there is a reason for that, the history of childhood.
So I believe.

Uns

[isittoolate]

hi all
It is my understanding that everyone has narcissistic traits--EVERYONE. That is the healthy part that makes one take pride in his/her appearance, dress, hair. makeup, comportment etc.

It is only when these traits get out of control that it will lead to worse, to more evil things and if they are too evil, just move their diagnosis over to Psychopath.

For them to get out of control then, goes back to what their childhood was like, as (un)seen says.

I was surprised to hear my therapist tell me yesterday that her upbringing was very similar to mine. She says all parents will make mistakes. She has made mistakes and her sons will make mistakes and so on down the line.  I suppose we have to believe that to a certain point because of the family dynamics involved, with no two people parenting the same and no two people seeing the child's traits the same.

I doubt there is a parenting book out in print that covers EVERY problem.

and I made my mistakes

Love
Izzy

[Bella_French]

This is an interesting and thought provoking topic; thank you for posting it.

I can agree that children could be perceived as somewhat N-ish, in that at certain times in development children require a great deal of attention and self-focus. Where I think they differ from N's, is that (normal) children are undergoing a growth process, and they are not necessarily inheritantly malevolent. N's are the opposite to children in some ways; they have stopped developing emotionally, and the most defining part of their nature is that they have no conscience and are remorselessly cruel. 

Also, although I find the idea interesting of just meeting all a childs needs and they will `figure out' how to respect and interact with other people in a loving way, I think its probably overly idealistic. Of my 12 nephews and nieces, i can think of at least a few of them who need quite a bit of guidance in this area, as well as discipline at times. Especially some of the boys; they can be very rough sometimes, pretending to be ninjas and whatnot. They are not old enough to understand the consequences of their `war' games that they mimic from TV and other boys at school; thats when parents need to step in and guide them.

X Bella

[(un)seen]

Bella and Isitoolate

I am idealistic and it IS possible. People have managed to do it before. Their kids turn out to be wonderful people.

You can find links at What helps under How the children will keep their voices.

I especially recommend the book: the natural child, parenting from the heart by Jan Hunt.
her homesite :http://www.naturalchild.com

of course it isn't easy when most of us had to suffer so much

with love

Uns

this will be the last post for me here

love to everybody!!!

[isittoolate]

(un)seen

On this thread or this Board?
Izzy

[reallyME]

. N's are the opposite to children in some ways; they have stopped developing emotionally, and the most defining part of their nature is that they have no conscience and are remorselessly cruel. 

This brings us to the point about when Ns apologize.  they tend to do so in a roundabout way, and, even if they do utter the words "I'm sorry" it's generally because by hurting you, they've tarnished their image, and not because they genuinely care.  They do not know how to truly love someone, since that part of them never connected in their younger years.  All they can do, is "if something looks broken, "fix" it"  That is why, even if they do apologize, they do not usually stay around to face the repurcussions and work through them.  I call it "bandaid" mentality.