Author Topic: Safe People  (Read 32171 times)

Hermes

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Re: Safe People
« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2008, 05:31:11 PM »
Hello Bella.  I agree with your posts on this particular topic.  So, you are Australian.  I am Irish, living between Ireland and Continental Europe. 

I agree, we sometimes have to make a cultural leap. 
We don't talk about religion here, one way or the other, and I have no idea even what my friends and acquaintances believe in.  It is their business.

 But what matter the belief, I say, if the person is a good person.

All the best
Hermes




Certain Hope

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Re: Safe People
« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2008, 08:42:31 AM »
Here's the next installment... with thanks again, Bella... you are indeed, to me, a safe human being :)

6.  Unsafe people stay in parent/child roles, instead of relating as equals.

Safe people respect our right to make decisions and adult choices.
Unsafe people resist our adult functioning.
They don't agree with our right to an opinion, a value, or a decision.
Unsafe people react to our adultness by withdrawing from it.

Safe individuals love to see us grow up and mature...

Your closest relationships are, at all times, actively working either for or against your growth.
In the list below, the first two ways of relating hinder your growth and the last one encourages it:

I feel like a kid around them.
I feel like I have to be their parent.

I feel equal with them.

The first two are fairly self-explanatory. Taking a closer look at what it means to feel equal with another human being...

You know you're around a safe, adult person by the following characteristics:


She is not threatened by your differences.
She has standards, values, and convictions she's worked out for herself.
At the same time, she doesn't have a "right way" and a "wrong way" for everything.
She functions at least on the same level of maturity as her same-age peers.
She appreciates mystery and the unknown.
She encourages me to develop my own values.


And the final note, specifically for Christians...
Remember that we want our efforts to be approved by God (2 Timothy 2:15), not people.
Find people who want the same goals for you.

7. Unsafe people are unstable over time, instead of being consistent.

Here are some traits to look for in your relationships:

Are they living up to their commitments to me?
Are they here for me only when I'm here? (Right in front of them, in their face, with an emergency, for instance.)
Do they tell me no, when they don't have time? (they should!)
Do they make promises they can't keep?
Am I the last in a string of broken relationships?
Do others warn me about their pattern of relating?

And a word to Christians:
Love is abiding, timeless, and unchanging, just like its Author.
Find people who love you, and love you well over time, like He does.
Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, and today, and forever.   Hebrews 13:8


more to come....



Hopalong

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Re: Safe People
« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2008, 10:26:09 AM »
Hi Bella,
I once ran away from Al-Anon when I realized that no matter what the big book said (God as you understand him) each meeting closed with people holding hands, saying the Lords Prayer. I knew that excluded many people who might come, including me, and I thought that was wrong.

Have you checked out any sites like this?
http://www.smartrecovery.org/resources/faq.htm#Q.%20How%20is%20SMART%20Recovery®%20different%20from%20traditional%20Twelve%20Step%20programs

There are a lot of forums, too...

xo
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Leah

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Re: Safe People
« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2008, 10:50:06 AM »

In my view, that is wrong, to get people to say The Lord's Prayer, assuming that they know him, as their father, when they may not

Freedom of choice, always, is paramount, to any recovery, or healing.

Leah
Jun 2006 voiceless seeking

April 2008 - "The Gaslight Effect" How to Spot & Survive by Dr. Robin Stern - freedom of understanding!

The Truth About Abuse VIDEO

Leah

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Re: Safe People
« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2008, 07:41:02 PM »

((((( Bella )))))

Truly, I don't like the Christian 12-Step books and tapes, either.  (long story)

Hugs back to you,

Love, Leah
Jun 2006 voiceless seeking

April 2008 - "The Gaslight Effect" How to Spot & Survive by Dr. Robin Stern - freedom of understanding!

The Truth About Abuse VIDEO

Certain Hope

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Re: Safe People
« Reply #20 on: January 29, 2008, 07:51:12 PM »
(((((((((((( Bella )))))))))))))  I understand... especially about a few things going on and feeling extra emotional... never any need to explain to a fellow emotionally charged sister... wow, it can get to be overwhelming. There are many topics I wouldn't even begin to touch, some days... lol.  Anyhow, bunches of love to you... all is well.

Carolyn

Certain Hope

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Re: Safe People
« Reply #21 on: January 29, 2008, 10:08:37 PM »
The latest installment, condensed, as always... lol. This is the last of the portion detailing interpersonal traits of unsafe folks.

8. Unsafe people are a negative influence on us, rather than a positive one.

Safety breeds safety. And safe people make us better people for being around them.
An unsafe person may make you feel good - yet wound you emotionally. She may make you act better,
but hurt your character. And you may think you're being treated well, but she may be hindering your growth.
We cannot fail to be influenced, for better or worse, by the people in whom we invest. It will always show...
(just like fruit on a vine).


Ask yourself these questions about the people with whom you relate:

As a result of spending time with this person, am I -

more loving or more detached?
more honest or more compliant?
more forgiving or more idealistic?
more mutual or more childish?

And for Christians -
 Safe people are not perfect, but they help us progress toward Christlike character in the four major areas of spiritual growth.

9. Unsafe people gossip, instead of keeping secrets.

 'Nuf said, I think.

Carolyn

Iphi

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Re: Safe People
« Reply #22 on: January 29, 2008, 10:40:57 PM »
CH - I read Safe People late last year and thought it was really good, though I don't come from the Christian counseling orientation.  I thought it was such a good, helpful book and I really appreciate you sharing these excerpts. 

I particularly liked a part that I think was in Safe People (I read another at the same time) where Cloud said that to take risks and make the most of your life you need a deep pool of association of safe people so that failure would not be devastating.  You can't take the big risks to accomplish big things if that deep web of safe people, like a net for a trapeze artist, isn't there.  As much as sometimes we are the trapeze artists, we also form the strands in the safety net for others to support their reaching for their best lives.  Anyway, that touched me deeply.
Character, which has nothing to do with intellect or skill, can evolve only by increasing our capacity to love, and to become lovable. - Joan Grant

Shy

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Re: Safe People
« Reply #23 on: January 30, 2008, 02:01:27 AM »
Post deleted.

Yamen, Shy, Watcher, Observer—and various other names.  I have asked you to post under one name.  You are one person with one view of the world.  I, and many others, would appreciate hearing that view.  Your pretending to be many people all of whom share the same view, however, is not allowed on this board.  E-mail me.

Richard 
« Last Edit: February 01, 2008, 01:37:22 PM by voicel2 »

Gabben

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Re: Safe People
« Reply #24 on: January 30, 2008, 01:04:01 PM »

Being confronted on character issues isn't pleasant. It hurts our self-image. It humbles us.
But it doesn't harm us. Loving confrontations protect us from our blindness and self-destructiveness.

There is a major difference between confronters and strokers.
Confronters risk our leaving them to tell us a needed truth.
They jeopardize comfort to give us honest love.
Strokers, in contrast, lull us to sleep by idealizing our specialness.
As long as you feel good, they're happy.
This is more addictive, than loving. And it certainly isn't safe.

We all need praise... but praise affirms the truth! Strokers, however, avoid the truth by exclusively praising.

Beware of people who only tell you your good points, justifying it by a desire to be "positive".
They aren't loving you enough to tell you when your attitude or behavior is driving your life over a cliff,
even though you desperately need to know it.


Thank you for this Carolyn,

This helped to affirm for me about my drinking enabler. This was woman who I knew from my church who introduced me to my N saint therapist. This woman, enabler as I will call her, was wealthy and in her 50's, she latched on to me at a time in my life when I was hurting, vulnerable, needy, experiencing memories.

I got sober first when I was 17 and stayed sober in AA throughout my twenties.  But when I was in my early thirties I began to drink again to numb the pain that was surfacing from my childhood, it was another level of deeper memories. By this time in my life, at 32, I had already spent what felt like 4 intense years in couch therapy and another 8 years previous with a MFCC.  I was tired of therapy and healing.  Unconsciously I returned to the bottle at a time when my deepest and most painful wounds were just about to surface. That was also when I returned to the Catholic church and met this enabler church going woman.

She used to provide alcohol for me, keeping her house a constant open door for me. Never did it occur to me to really question her motives, she went to church, seemed friendly enough and had a charming and engaging personality.

At first, the only condition for her friendship was that I just hang out with her and keep her company.  Then I had to walk her dog, who I really loved but it eventually became a chore. Then I had to start running errands for her. Slowly I got pulled in. However, I was no saint. Just like she was using me, exploiting me,  I was using her for alcohol and a non-confrontational unlimited drunk safe place to drink and hang out.

As my drinking progressed, and my misery from the hang overs as well as my guilt set in, I started to try to stop but enabler would say things like "it is OK -- God loves you no matter what and he knows how much you like to drink, just drink." She drank a lot too and her money pit seemed endless. She flaunted it and spent it on people to buy her friends. Underneath she felt really unworthy and suffered from very low self-esteem.

Many times, lovingly, I tired to tell her about her low self-image as well I would confront her about her exploitation. One of her favorite comments was "I am a giving friend therefore I am entitled to demand that my friends give back to me," can you believe it? I called her on that one once, telling her about unconditional giving and that if she is going to give she better not expect anything in return. Since I am not a taker I could not just keep taking from her, I had to give to her and help her but I felt trapped. I could not pull away enough to get sober -- The vicious cycle in our friendship went on for over two years.

But I eventually did pull away, I got sober, returning to my old ex-drunk AA friends, as we call each other. They loved me and helped pull me away from the toxic enabler from my church.

The bottom line was that she never once said "I think you are drinking too much" or, "I do not think it is a good idea that you drive home, you have had too much to drink." On the contrary, she allowed me to drive home drunk so many times I can't even count.

When I got about 9 months sober I confronted her and asked her why she never tried to tell me that I was drinking too much. She just sat there silently and fearfully - for a woman who loved to talk, she had nothing to say.

That was one of the last times that I ever really spoke with her.

Lise
« Last Edit: January 30, 2008, 01:11:31 PM by Gabben »

Gabben

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Re: Safe People
« Reply #25 on: January 30, 2008, 05:43:56 PM »


I have a different view on enabling, because I blame only myself for my decisions. Noone ever made me drink. People accepted me, some didn't. Some did the sames things as me, and made it seem like fun. But it as always me making those decisions.

X bella


Hi Bella,

My story is NOT about blaming someone else because they MADE me drink ....not even...I take full responsibility for my choice to drink. That was in the story.  However, people do enable us...making it easier for us to drink and easier for us to not have to face ourselves.

That is what this woman did for me, she made it easy. But when the pain was too much it was no longer easy. I never asked her to not help me not drink, nor did I ever think that cutting her out of my life was the solution either because I knew that I was the one who had to do it, I had to help me and she was not going to help, especially when push came to shove.  Even if she tried to help it was not going to be enough. But if you want to really help a drinker hit their bottom faster than you do not make it easy for them to drink, does that make sense?

When I did get sober I realized what she was doing, enabling, and I knew that I could not enable her so I spoke up. What about her next victim, and she finds them, what if she let's them drive home drunk one night and they kill someone? That is the kind of enabling I am talking about here, is that clear now?

Hmmmm...I think that you are missing the point of the story and what enabling means, in summary, she was not a safe person and she made it easy for me to drink, however, she was not the blame.

I just don't want to enable you here...peace and hugs (((bella)))

Lise
« Last Edit: January 30, 2008, 05:53:24 PM by Gabben »

Gabben

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Re: Safe People
« Reply #26 on: January 30, 2008, 06:22:26 PM »
Hi Bella,

Thanks,

And as you can see, I have changed the habit. It was one of the hardest things I had to conquer in my life and I do not want to be accused of blaming or have my light diminished because someone here wants to point out that at one point, in my past, I chose an enabler.

Peace,
Lise
« Last Edit: January 30, 2008, 06:24:13 PM by Gabben »

Gabben

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Re: Safe People
« Reply #27 on: January 30, 2008, 06:52:46 PM »
Hi Bella,

Thanks,

And as you can see, I have changed the habit. It was one of the hardest things I had to conquer in my life and I do not want to be accused of blaming or have my light diminished because someone here wants to point out that at one point, in my past, I chose an enabler.

Peace,
Lise


I do not feel that  I have diminished you in any way Gabben by stating that i have different attitude towards enabling.  I am sorry that you feel that way when an alternate view to your own is expressed though.

Bella



Hi Bella,

No - we have the same view...that is clear.

here is a line from my original story:

"I was no saint. Just like she was using me, exploiting me,  I was using her for alcohol and a non-confrontational unlimited drunk safe place to drink and hang out."

As you can see the story is NOT about me blaming her for my drinking...it is about telling a story of what enabling and unsafe people look like.

You were accusing me of blaming her for my drinking. That was never the case.

It is not about you having a different view it is about you missing the point of the story.

Hugs ((bella))

Lise

Gabben

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Re: Safe People
« Reply #28 on: January 30, 2008, 07:17:03 PM »
Hi Bella,

Thanks much. I can understand why you would think that way from the story but as the saying goes, "friends don't let friends drive drunk."  Also, she knew that I was out of control, when we love someone, if we really do, we speak up. I was never asking her that question while we WERE friends, I only reflected on it after I got sober. It would be a natural question to ask a friend. "hey did you notice that I was drinking too much and too drunk to drive at times?" her answer "yes!" then I normally I ask, "why then did you not say something?"

We still disagree here but the fact is she WAS an enabler and I AM NOW sober.


Peace and thank you for all of the good insight and good stuff you did point out, blessings to you Bella.

Lise
« Last Edit: January 31, 2008, 07:16:53 PM by Gabben »

Certain Hope

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Re: Safe People
« Reply #29 on: January 30, 2008, 07:38:51 PM »
Hey - wow - I may never catch up till this weekend, but just checking in on this thread... : )

Hi, Iphi,

I haven't gotten to this part yet, but I agree - it's very touching...
"where Cloud said that to take risks and make the most of your life you need a deep pool of association of safe people so that failure would not be devastating.  You can't take the big risks to accomplish big things if that deep web of safe people, like a net for a trapeze artist, isn't there.  As much as sometimes we are the trapeze artists, we also form the strands in the safety net for others to support their reaching for their best lives.

My pastor often cautions us to not reveal our highest dreams and expectations to just anyone, lest they get nipped in the bud by nay-sayers. (He calls them the "we be not ablers" ... lol. Wise words, I think.

It's good to read you, dear Iphi... thanks for posting!

Hello, Shy,

Thank you for posting, too... it's a pleasure to meet you. I agree... this is a great book for simple, practical relationship info.

For years, I've been around the loop with that vicious circle of idealizing/demonizing... and not just as the target of it.
I've actually done it myself, in a way... quieter, much more withdrawn, and yet basically the same thing.
 With me, I think it was because I always figured everyone else had life so well sorted... and I was the only odd-one-out.
So when someone who seemed to have it all together was decent to me, I'd sell out to them in a heartbeat.
Then, when it quickly became clear that they were less than ideal, I'd scratch them off my list. (Well, some of them... sadly, not always the right ones.)

Later in life, when I began to find a bit of my voice, I was so starved for emotional connection that I'd gush too much and - of all things - attract people
who were very much like I used to be. Then - when I could not devote myself to them 100 percent - I was the awful one.
Ugh.

So - it is definitely time to be out of that loop! Sorry, I'm exhausted and this is quite babbly, but I hope you get what I'm trying to say.

Again, great to have you posting. Thanks!


Lise - I haven't read all of the exchanges between you and Bella, but it sounds like you've got it pretty well sorted...  : )

Since I quit drinking 3 years ago, I've experienced some serious anger at my parents for always encouraging that destructive habit and never
questioning whether or not it was harming me. I guess I'm ready to give up that resentment at last, since I understand better that it never occurred to them
that masking emotions (and reality!) was a bad thing. In many ways, it's all they've ever known... and they're clearly not interested in what I have to say about
life without alcohol, so... yeah, definitely not safe people. Sure wish it didn't take half a lifetime to learn this stuff, but hey - at least we're learning - still! - and not stuck in any permanent ruts!

Love to y'all,
Carolyn

P.S. ((((((Bella))))))