Author Topic: Safe People  (Read 32204 times)

Certain Hope

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Re: Safe People
« Reply #30 on: January 31, 2008, 01:29:22 PM »
In my initial post on this thread, I launched directly into the portion of the book about
the interpersonal characteristics of unsafe people, which
should actually have been the second segment. oops.
I think that the first part is still worth reviewing,so... here it is :)


It's noted that unsafe people can be particularly difficult to spot...

"Quite often, unsafe people appear winsome and promising, and their character problems are often subtle.
So how do we know whom to trust?

While there are many different kinds of unsafe people, many of them fall under three categories:
the abandoners,
the critics,
and the irresponsibles.


Abandoners
are people who can start a relationship, but who can't finish it.
They begin with statements about companionship and commitment, but they leave us when we need them most.
Often, abandoners have been abandoned themselves. Sometimes, afraid of true closeness, they prefer shallow aquaintances.
Others are looking for perfect friends, and they leave when the cracks start showing.

Abandoners destroy trust. Those they leave in their wake are apt to say, "I'll never have anyone who will be there for me."
This is a far cry from God's ideal, that we be "rooted and established in love." (Ephesians 3:17)
And those who continually pick abandoners often become depressed, develop compulsive behaviors, or worse.

Critics
are people who take a parental role with everyone they know. They are judgmental, speak the truth without love, and have no room for grace or forgiveness.
They are more concerned with confronting errors than they are with making connections.
For example, they often jump on doctrinal and ethical bandwagons (which are important) and neglect issues of love, compassion,
and forgiveness.
They often confuse weakness with sinfulness, and therefore condemn others when they have problems.

Critics tend to point the finger outside, rather than at themselves. They will sometimes become indignant at the troubles others cause, and
propose solutions like, "think, feel, believe, and act like my group" as the cure-all.
Critics often deeply love truth and righteousness. Because they are clear thinkers, they can be good people to go to for information.
But don't go to them for relationship, for their truth often comes poisoned with judgmentalism.

If you're attracted to critical people, you may find relief in their clarity of thought and purity of vision, but you'll also find yourself
guilt-ridden, compliant, and unable to make mistakes without tremendous anxiety.

Next time... the irresponsibles. (My personal favorite  :|)

Gabben

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Re: Safe People
« Reply #31 on: January 31, 2008, 01:53:56 PM »


While there are many different kinds of unsafe people, many of them fall under three categories:
the abandoners,
the critics,
and the irresponsibles.


Abandoners
are people who can start a relationship, but who can't finish it.
They begin with statements about companionship and commitment, but they leave us when we need them most.
Often, abandoners have been abandoned themselves. Sometimes, afraid of true closeness, they prefer shallow aquaintances.
Others are looking for perfect friends, and they leave when the cracks start showing.


Critics:
are people who take a parental role with everyone they know. They are judgmental, speak the truth without love, and have no room for grace or forgiveness.


They are more concerned with confronting errors than they are with making connections.

Critics often deeply love truth and righteousness. Because they are clear thinkers, they can be good people to go to for information.
But don't go to them for relationship, for their truth often comes poisoned with judgmentalism.

If you're attracted to critical people, you may find relief in their clarity of thought and purity of vision, but you'll also find yourself
guilt-ridden, compliant, and unable to make mistakes without tremendous anxiety.


Hi Carolyn ,

Thank you for this. The parts above are the parts I identify myself with.

As I was reading I was reminded of how much shame I felt when I first had to come to terms with what a critic I was and still am at times in my life. Working through the layers of old anger and hurt...which takes great self care and compassion.

Also, I fit into the abandoner category too. I used to have the hardest time getting close to people, that was what took me into therapy in my early twenties. I used to keep everyone at arms length distance. It was hard for me to open up and trust people because those that were supposed to protect me and love me, my parents, hurt me so deeply when I was abandoned as a child.

It would be fair and loving to say that each and all of us have been "unsafe" at times. Nobody can claim to be the perfect loving mom or sister or person.  We have to admit that we make mistakes and acknowledge the people that we hurt and admit why...because I was frightened or I was jealous etc..  For me, I have had to really stare me in the face, stare...and then see  my behaviors, not what I project or think I am but what am I actually doing?  Then I accept me but usually after a while of beating myself up, although I do that less to myself and find others do it more to me to alleviate their own feelings of shame.

The real difference between the safe and the unsafe is that the usafe can never really acknowledge the pain they caused or admit to their own unsafe behaviors.

It is important that we just keep working to grow and see ourselves and heal the deep wounds in our heart. It is also important for me to practice thinking about others more than myself (with no agenda but to love and serve) and to recognize in me when I am self-seeking and fearful. I am human.

I make mistakes and I have hurt others in my life, many times. But to admit that to myself and God, to admit that to others and acknowledge the pain I have caused them is to feel the forgiveness for myself. And, takes me one more step closer to becoming a more "safe" and loving person.

The day I die is the day I stop healing.

Peace and love,
Lise


« Last Edit: January 31, 2008, 02:06:11 PM by Gabben »

Hermes

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Re: Safe People
« Reply #32 on: January 31, 2008, 02:27:25 PM »
Hello to all:

I was just thinking here that no one can be perfect, or even close to perfect either.  Everyone has faults and failings, and it is human to err (often!).   Sainthood is an impossible goal, and enough to make a person's head reel just thinking of it. 

Speaking of alcohol and drinking.  I know of people who are alcoholics, and you could end up getting a verbal or actual wallop across the face if you even hinted that they might do something about their problem. 

There are many clear thinkers out there who are not critical.  In fact that was the kind of person I approached, personally, back when I could not (in midst of N-trauma) think for myself.  What I did NOT need then was the "there, there, dear" approach.


I found this on a site:
http://www.philosophytalk.org/SaintsandHeroes.htm
""What are moral saints and heroes? Saints and heroes are people that go above and beyond the call of duty. In philosophical jargon, this is called "supererogation". Most moral theories divide actions into three categories: that which is obligatory, that which is forbidden, and that which is optional. Would we have better lives if we were more like the saints and heroes? Ken introduces Susan Wolf, professor at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill. Wolf defines a moral saint as a person that is as morally good as can possibly be. Wolf says that while it would be good for there to be moral saints, she wouldn't want to be too close to them. Wolf distinguishes two kinds of saints: loving saints, people that act out of love for everyone, and dutiful saints, people that act out of feelings of duty or obligation. ""


Gabben

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Re: Safe People
« Reply #33 on: January 31, 2008, 02:52:01 PM »

Speaking of alcohol and drinking.  I know of people who are alcoholics, and you could end up getting a verbal or actual wallop across the face if you even hinted that they might do something about their problem. 


Sure you could get slapped or verbally assaulted but wouldn't you want to take that risk than watch someone you love drink themselves to death or possible kill someone while driving under the influence.

Do you know why people get violent when you confront with the truth?

Because the truth hurts and we automatically defend ourselves when something hurts.

The truth also sticks, it is something we can't shake easily.

Here is a favorite quote of mine:

All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
Arthur Schopenhauer (1788 - 1860)

« Last Edit: January 31, 2008, 03:05:51 PM by Gabben »

Hermes

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Re: Safe People
« Reply #34 on: January 31, 2008, 03:02:03 PM »
Oh yes, Gabben, I would be prepared to take that risk.  Problem is that (aside from the risk of possible assault) there are none so blind as those who will not see.  Talking to a drunk is like talking to the wall.

A good friend of mine's wife is an alcoholic (she is now 70 and I am amazed the drinking hasn't killed her).  He has tried everything, but everything.  He even committed her to a psychiatric centre (private hospital), in a moment of desperation.  Well, she checked herself out the next day, and refused to speak with the resident psychiatrist in there.  Sure, the truth hurts her, but it evidently isn't sticking to her.  I met with this couple recently, and in the short space of a dinner, she got down two bottles of wine all on her own ((not to mention the drinks she had before I even got there). 
She has made an exhibition of herself on many an occasion, but, no, no sign of the truth becoming self-evident to her.
Her husband tried the futile exercise of always searching the house for the bottles, and emptying them out down the sink.  She merely went out and bought more.  I think he has  given up.

A lot of things are easier said than done.  In a perfect world I could rehab a whole raft of people, just by telling them something was going to eventually kill them.  But, well, it just does not work like that.

All the best
Hermes





Gabben

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Re: Safe People
« Reply #35 on: January 31, 2008, 03:08:36 PM »
  Talking to a drunk is like talking to the wall.


Hi Hermes,

Excuse me? I am an ex-drunk.

I am so glad that the people who confronted me did not clasify me as "the wall." I am so glad that people did speak to me, again and again and again....why because they were not afraid or lazy and because they loved me.


Lise

Hermes

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Re: Safe People
« Reply #36 on: January 31, 2008, 03:17:50 PM »
Dear Gabben:

I am sorry Gabben, and I am not classifying you as anything.  How do I know you were an "ex-drunk"?
 I am glad those people dealt with you as they did.  I am merely saying what my experience has been with that particular person I mention.  I am not afraid of speaking to people who have a problem, be it drinking or any other problem. 
I do not have anyone in my immediate family (nor have I had) anyone who had what is called a drink problem.   If I had, I expect I would have spoken to them day in day out.  I am not an expert on alcoholism, by any means, and I repeat my main experience would be the woman I mentioned, because she and her husband have been friends of mine a long time.  He has also done his best, day in day out, to talk to her, and it has all been to no avail.  She has been vituperative and verbally abusive to him when he has done so, but he has still tried.  So what I am saying is that the "talking to" the person evidently does not ALWAYS work. 

Another thing is that while I try to be as helpful as I can to people I meet in real life, I am not cut out to be a crusader.  It has been quite a self-crusade (LOL) just to get mayself back to "self" after the N-trauma.

All the best
Hermes




Gabben

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Re: Safe People
« Reply #37 on: January 31, 2008, 03:35:39 PM »
Dear Gabben:


 I am glad those people dealt with you as they did. 




Ouch - Hermes, are the people who drink objects? Are we supposed to be dealt with?

How about trying to use the word caring for example: "I'm glad that their were people who cared about you."

It is important here on the board to really think about what you write and how it affects others but at the same time not squish your own voice -- it is hard - I have to work on this myself.

Lise

Hermes

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Re: Safe People
« Reply #38 on: January 31, 2008, 03:41:18 PM »
Come on, Gabben, give me a break here!   This is not a class on literary style, and I don't know about you, but I have a 10 hour working day behind me.  Dealing with also means taking care of.  So how about it?

Walking on eggshells is not good on this board, or any other board.  IMO.

All the best
Hermes

Hermes

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Re: Safe People
« Reply #39 on: January 31, 2008, 04:50:06 PM »
Thanks Bella.  I understand what you are saying.  On the other hand, it would be very difficult for me to understand actual alcoholism, drug taking, because I, well, I just can't understand it, not having been there.

Deep pain, that I can understand, because I have been there.  There are all kinds of theories about addictions, mainly because why do some people in deep pain, terrible emotional pain, not go on alcohol or drugs, while others do. 

Good to hear from you.
Hermes

Ami

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Re: Safe People
« Reply #40 on: January 31, 2008, 04:53:34 PM »
I will say that the only time all day when I do not have pain trying to overwhelm me is when I take a beer at night.It is a powerful drug and very, very easy to get hooked on, I would think.
  I think that anyone in pain could get hooked, fairly easily(IMO) .                      Ami
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

Hermes

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Re: Safe People
« Reply #41 on: January 31, 2008, 04:58:59 PM »
I just don't know, Ami.  A beer is such a pleasant drink, and refreshing.
 I know that one could get hooked on alcohol, as witness the statistics out there.   I understand your pain Ami, and I just don't want to say to you that maybe you are entitled to have that glass of beer once a day.  Gosh, I am now so afraid of saying the wrong thing........

Hugs
Hermes

Gabben

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Re: Safe People
« Reply #42 on: January 31, 2008, 05:13:26 PM »
Thanks Bella.  I understand what you are saying.  On the other hand, it would be very difficult for me to understand actual alcoholism, drug taking, because I, well, I just can't understand it, not having been there.


Exactly - if you can't understand then why make so many judgements and hold so many opinions about something you have zero experience with and have zero understanding?


Hermes  -- you seem to come across here on the board as having all knowledge about all subjects. There are many posts and many contributions that you have made to the board which I really appreciate. However, when it comes to drinking and addiction I would study and read a bit more....then make some statements:



Excerpt from Big Book of AA.

We believe, and so suggested a few years ago, that the action of alcohol on these chronic alcoholics is a manifestation of an allergy; that the phenomenon of craving is limited to this class and never occurs in the average temperate drinker. These allergic types can never safely use alcohol in any form at all; and once having formed the habit and found they cannot break it, once having lost their self-confidence, their reliance upon things human, their problems pile up on them and become astonishingly difficult to solve.

Frothy emotional appeal seldom suffices. The message which can interest and hold these alcoholic people must have depth and weight. In nearly all cases, their ideals must be grounded in a power greater than themselves, if they are to re-create their lives.

If any feel that as psychiatrists directing a hospital for alcoholics we appear somewhat sentimental, let them stand with us a while on the firing line, see the tragedies, the despairing wives, the little children; let the solving of these problems become a part of their daily work, and even of their sleeping moments, and the most cyni cal will not wonder that we have accepted and encouraged this movement. We feel, after many years of experience, that we have found nothing which has contributed more to the rehabilitation of these men than the altruistic movement now growing up among them.

Men and women drink essentially because they like the effect produced by alcohol. The sensation is so elusive that, while they admit it is injurious, they cannot after a time differentiate the true from the false. To them, their alcoholic life seems the only normal one. They are restless, irritable and discontented, unless they can again experience the sense of ease and comfort which comes at once by taking a few drinks-drinks which they see others taking with impunity. After they have succumbed to the desire again, as so many do, and the phenomenon of craving develops, they pass through the well-known stages of a spree, emerging remorseful, with a firm resolution not to drink again. This is repeated over and over, and unless this person can experience an entire psychic change there is very little hope of his recovery.


I have gone through an entire psychic - I am a recovered alcoholic.

Lise

Hermes

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Re: Safe People
« Reply #43 on: January 31, 2008, 05:24:03 PM »
Gabben:

Now you are trying my patience, and you are judging me.  First of all I do not have all knowledge about ALL  subjects (and I do not like your tone either, because it sounds to me like sarcasm).  I can understand pain, and I know about alcoholism, but I have not been an alcoholic myself.  That is all I was saying.  
I do not have time to read up even more on addiction and alcoholism, but I have read about it, and have met many many people who have an alcoholic family member.

I would like to have time to study many more aspects of a whole variety of topics.  Unfortunately, at the moment, that is impossible, because I am working a rather long day.

"So many judgements.....................zero experience".   Dear me, Gabben.  You are beginning to sound like sour grapes.  Sorry for the pun....

All the best
Hermes

Certain Hope

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Re: Safe People
« Reply #44 on: January 31, 2008, 05:50:55 PM »


While there are many different kinds of unsafe people, many of them fall under three categories:
the abandoners,
the critics,
and the irresponsibles.


Abandoners
are people who can start a relationship, but who can't finish it.
They begin with statements about companionship and commitment, but they leave us when we need them most.
Often, abandoners have been abandoned themselves. Sometimes, afraid of true closeness, they prefer shallow aquaintances.
Others are looking for perfect friends, and they leave when the cracks start showing.


Critics:
are people who take a parental role with everyone they know. They are judgmental, speak the truth without love, and have no room for grace or forgiveness.


They are more concerned with confronting errors than they are with making connections.

Critics often deeply love truth and righteousness. Because they are clear thinkers, they can be good people to go to for information.
But don't go to them for relationship, for their truth often comes poisoned with judgmentalism.

If you're attracted to critical people, you may find relief in their clarity of thought and purity of vision, but you'll also find yourself
guilt-ridden, compliant, and unable to make mistakes without tremendous anxiety.


Hi Carolyn ,

Thank you for this. The parts above are the parts I identify myself with.

As I was reading I was reminded of how much shame I felt when I first had to come to terms with what a critic I was and still am at times in my life. Working through the layers of old anger and hurt...which takes great self care and compassion.

Also, I fit into the abandoner category too. I used to have the hardest time getting close to people, that was what took me into therapy in my early twenties. I used to keep everyone at arms length distance. It was hard for me to open up and trust people because those that were supposed to protect me and love me, my parents, hurt me so deeply when I was abandoned as a child.

It would be fair and loving to say that each and all of us have been "unsafe" at times. Nobody can claim to be the perfect loving mom or sister or person.  We have to admit that we make mistakes and acknowledge the people that we hurt and admit why...because I was frightened or I was jealous etc..  For me, I have had to really stare me in the face, stare...and then see  my behaviors, not what I project or think I am but what am I actually doing?  Then I accept me but usually after a while of beating myself up, although I do that less to myself and find others do it more to me to alleviate their own feelings of shame.

The real difference between the safe and the unsafe is that the usafe can never really acknowledge the pain they caused or admit to their own unsafe behaviors.

It is important that we just keep working to grow and see ourselves and heal the deep wounds in our heart. It is also important for me to practice thinking about others more than myself (with no agenda but to love and serve) and to recognize in me when I am self-seeking and fearful. I am human.

I make mistakes and I have hurt others in my life, many times. But to admit that to myself and God, to admit that to others and acknowledge the pain I have caused them is to feel the forgiveness for myself. And, takes me one more step closer to becoming a more "safe" and loving person.

The day I die is the day I stop healing.

Peace and love,
Lise




Hi, Lise,

Me, too... critical spirit and abandoner... by default, I think, since I had no idea what emotional intimacy might look like.
I'd try to pay my own penance for these faults and lacks by opening myself up to the absolutely wrong people... and then the entire vicious cycle would begin again.

About this:
It would be fair and loving to say that each and all of us have been "unsafe" at times. Nobody can claim to be the perfect loving mom or sister or person.  We have to admit that we make mistakes and acknowledge the people that we hurt and admit why...because I was frightened or I was jealous etc..  For me, I have had to really stare me in the face, stare...and then see  my behaviors, not what I project or think I am but what am I actually doing? 

Exactly. I agree. It would be fair and loving and just and right and honest and transparent and... true! Beware of anyone who claims to be too innocent, pure, wounded, or w h a t e v e r    to even consider that she/he just may be wrong.

Love and peace to you, as well,
Carolyn