Safe People

[Certain Hope]

Leah and Lise,

I'm glad you two were able to come to healthy terms and I can rejoice with you in that!

Leah, I would like to be on healthy terms with you, too, and yet I'm not sure that's possible in light of my current feelings.

I don't know whether it was proper/safe for you to imply on the board here that I had somehow slandered Gabben in a pm to you.
At least I feel that's what you did... that you implied something very negative about me, not to mention calling me a liar and then backpeddling about it, ignoring my setting straight of the facts.

On the other hand, I do know that I was quite uncertain myself about Gabben/Lise some months ago and therefore chose not to interact with her on the board. I wish that I could say without a shadow of the doubt that I did not speak of my uncertainty, but I can't.

Nonetheless, I don't feel good about what I see as your insinuations, Leah. There's something to it, I feel, almost as though you're trying to undercut me... I don't know. Just quite uncomfortable and unsettled.

You presumed alot about me here, just as you accused Lise of doing re: mind reading, fortune telling, etc, etc., but you have not acknowledged my statements in correction of those presumptions.

For the reasons above, I must continue to consider you an unsafe person where I am concerned, at least... because that is the prudent thing to do, I believe.

Lise,

I'm sorry that I was not in a place to appreciate your ways, your style and approach, until now. Please accept my sincere apologies for misunderstanding you and especially for possibly sharing my misunderstanding with another. I never want to be responsible for colouring anyone's view of another human being and I'm committing to guarding my tongue in that regard.
As the fear which previously consumed me is dissipated, it's replaced by love...  and I long for the day when that love stretches to encompass a wider field. For now, I absolutely must guard my heart.

Carolyn

P.S.  Just saw your last post, Lise... thank you. This is still an important topic and although I value all the rest which has taken place here, I surely don't want to lose sight of it.

[Leah]

Leah, I would like to be on healthy terms with you, too, and yet I'm not sure that's possible in light of my current feelings.

Dear Carolyn,

I respect that those are your feelings, and as such, your ownership.

Please know that at this time, I cannot feel "safe" as you call it, with you, as I have felt "unsafe" with you for some time, as you have blown, hot and cold, with me.

I only have to go back, and look at postings, and your PM's -- which help me see the full color picture, of truth.

Whereas, Lise, is very much, open, what you see is what you get, of which, now, in the light, I can feel safe with.

With serenity, there is nothing that I can do, or could do, to change the way in which you feel, and own those feelings, toward me, and my postings, which have been my life work, and my life journey, only.

Hypercompetitiveness thread, was not personal to you, Carolyn.

And again, I am grateful, for your thread "Buzz Off!"

which truly helped me, regarding my parents.

In my prayers, as always,

Love in Christ,

Leah

[Certain Hope]

Thank you for respecting that these are my feelings, Leah, and that I must own them.

I respect that your feelings are your own, as well, including where it concerns this alleged blowing hot and cold with you which you feel I've done.

The full color picture of truth in my pm's and postings alike is that I am a human being, not a clone of someone's idealized image or a member of anyone's foo upon whom to revisit old issues. In other words, I am just me... not thoroughly known to myself, as yet, but certainly on the road to deeper understanding.

I don't have a life's work, Leah. I only have my daily learning and activities which build on the one foundation I was given in my rebirth.
I did not think or feel that your hypercompetitiveness thread was personal to me, Leah.
I disagreed with your views as you expressed them there.
That is all.
On the contrary, I feel that you are very competitive... and that is not necessarily a bad thing, unless it's denied.
I didn't dare tell you that at the time, but now I do. Yes, I think and feel that you are quite competitive and I am not interested in any such competition.

My feelings and opinions and views are in a state of flux, as I continue to grow. Thank you for saying truthfully, now, that you have not felt safe with me for some time, Leah. I did not know that. I just figured you didn't care one way or the other how I felt, when you didn't respond to my post on your hypercompetitive thread, when I told you that I didn't feel good about your words to me.

So I see some misunderstandings, and some denials, some twistings, and lots of presumptions, still...
and yet I wish you love, as well, in Christ.

Carolyn

[Gabben]

Dear Carolyn,

Something crossed my mind as I was sitting here at my desk, which was that you have done some wonderful growing, reaching and soul searching in the last couple of months -- it shows.

It has been a warm pleasure to read your posts and to get to know you better. My heart tells me that you are honest, sincere, down to earth, warm, kind and compassionate for you know suffering. Sorry, if I make you blush.

But what really shines through is that you are courageous.

It takes tremendous courage to admit some of the things that you admitted here on the board. But I know that the reason that you have courage is because you have genuine faith...it ultimately comes down to us and God, no one else?

God protects His faithful.


You know as well as I do the following scripture:

MATTHEW 7:21; "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.


Or another way to put it is: Faith without works is dead.

With love,
Lise

[Leah]

Dear Carolyn,

I am not defensive.

I only know that for a long time, I was openly declared on the board, by yourself, as your dear sister, then I wasn't.

But, was puzzled, as to why I was no longer your dear sister, until I realized, that I spoke up for myself, in light of scripture.

That is okay, and the Lord will do his work, with you, and also, continually, with me also.

I am not competitive, however, I am not a baby Christian either, and sorry, but, I have read my Bible, too, just like you have.

That's where your thoughts of competitveness crept in, I believe.

But, not for me, you told me that you could not help yourself, and, I believed you, and that's okay with me.

I think in light of our Christian walk, we ought to leave this for now, hopefully, wisdom and grace, will breathe life and light.

Love in Christ,

Love from Leah x

[Certain Hope]

Leah,

I have no idea what you're talking about.

You spoke up for yourself about what?

What is it that you think you spoke up about, in light of Scripture, which supposedly brought about this change in me?

I do not recall any such incident.

And what does this mean?:  But, not for me, you told me that you could not help yourself, and, I believed you, and that's okay with me.

I told you that I could not help myself? When? About what?

Leah, seriously, how can you put out these vague references, as though there were actual events and words spoken with these meanings which you've attached to them, and then say that this should be left now.

I do not want to try to get the last word here, and yet I do want you to know that I have not the slightest clue what you're talking about. You seem to be assigning all sorts of motivations to me based on some things/events of which I'm not even aware!

Maybe that is my crime in your eyes. Is that it? I am not aware enough of you and I should be able to interpret the slightest nuances of everything going through your thoughts and feelings? How could I possibly manage that? It's impossible.
And yet I come right out and say that I don't like the way I feel after you post to me... and you have nothing at all to say.
But I'm the cold one?

This doesn't make sense, Leah. I will let it go, but not without saying that much - I absolutely disagree with your spin on this.

Carolyn



Lise,

Words cannot express... thank you. Made me cry.

With Love,
Carolyn

P.S. on edit

Leah, I also did not say that you were defensive, and yet you begin your post here with the words: 

Dear Carolyn,

I am not defensive.

... as though you were responding to something I never said. Honestly, I feel that you are having conversations with yourself in your mind and it doesn't matter what I say or don't say.

[Leah]

Dear Carolyn,

I have let it go.

Love, leah

[Certain Hope]

Leah,

One possibility which you may or may not wish to consider is this:

You may think that you've let it go, but truly you have only put it on hold, where it can brew and simmer... not within me, but within yourself.

You will also hear from me again if you try to put words into my mouth which I never said, and thoughts into my mind which are not my own.

Working out my own salvation here,
with love,
Carolyn

P.S. on edit - Just realized something. If the issue here is that you really don't feel safe with me, Leah, then I can allow for the possibility that that may be why you're unable/unwilling to answer all of the many questions I've put to you. In that event, the benefit of the doubt should be given, I suppose, and I should be more concerned about your feelings than my own intention.  And so... indeed, I have let this go.

[Certain Hope]

And now, the third way in which sins against us may have affected our development:


3) We were not seen as whole people, with both good and bad traits.

(I would add here that, consequently, we were not taught to or allowed to see ourselves and others as whole people either, hence the origins of so much of the black and white thinking
we may see both in ourselves, at times, and in others who have experienced neglect/abuse.)

Our third developmental need is the ability to resolve the split between goodness and badness.

After we answer the questions "Who loves me?" (bonding) and "Who am I?" (boundaries), we need to know, am I good or bad?

From a Christian perspective, we have this question answered by the fact of a perfect God dying for a sinful people, whereby - incredibly - this sinful people doesn't have to be good in order to be loved.
We can be bad and still be loved, just as the prodigal son was. (Luke 15:11-32)
But many of us have learned that we are not loved when we are bad.

Injuries in this area occur in four ways:

Perfectionism -  others expecting us to have no faults.

Idealization -  others denying our imperfections.

Shaming - others condemning us for our negative qualities.

Splitting - others seeing us as all-good or all-bad.

These relational patterns in significant relationships can create a dedicated perfectionist,
fully committed to the concept that she can and must eradicate any negative traits - and now!
Perfectionists stay caught in Romans 7, never able to internalize the truth of the next chapter -
"There is now, therefore, no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." (Romans 8:1)

They don't have enough grace inside to experience forgiveness.

(This was me. Sometimes, still is... but knowing that I cannot give to others what I refuse to receive for myself,
I am willing and trusting in God to fulfill in me that which He has begun.)


Good - bad problems are major destroyers.
People who can't reconcile either their own or anyone else's faults suffer tremendous isolation
because they are unable to attach to the real, whole people who are both good and bad.
The ideals of what "should" be get in the way.     

Perfectionists demand that their friends be perfect. Initially, when they click with someone, they will experience a wonderful honeymoon period,
full of discoveries about "all the things we have in common" and how "compatible" they are.
Then a conflict will arise.
They will start to see the other person's faults: they're always late, they don't listen well, they are too controlling.
Suddenly the perfectionists are confused and disappointed.
Someone they'd believed in, hoped for, expected more from - has seriously let them down.
And they tend to leave and reenter the fruitless, futile search for the ideal.
Since safe people are not perfect people, they are disqualified, and the perfectionist goes on alone.

More soon....

[Certain Hope]

A bit more about this good-bad, splitting, black & white, all-or-nothing mindset...

In some cases, perfectionists may forgive other peoples' sins (against them), but be unable to receive forgiveness themselves.

Many perfectionists will sabotage potentially good relationships for one reason: being found out.
They are afraid to get too close to someone, because their bad self might start leaking out, and the shame and self-condemnation they feel is unbearably painful.

Generally, perfectionists opt for isolation rather than to be exposed in their failings.
It is sadly ironic that perfectionists shun the very safety which could heal them.

The well known "commitment phobic" man is often in this category.
He's the type who starts a relationship, gets close, and then disappears.
As his defenses start slipping, the person's need for being understood, known, forgiven, and comforted begins to show.
And he can't tolerate the risk that his "bad self" would be too bad, too noxious.
So he takes the route he's taken for years... he runs away.

If you have this good/bad split, you may suffer from depression,
"all good or all bad" thinking about yourself and others, anxiety or panic,
broken relationships, eating disorders and substance abuse problems, guilt, idealism, inability to tolerate weakness,
narcissism,
perfectionism, rage and anger problems, self-image problems, and sexual addictions.

So far, I'm batting 1,000 re: bonding, boundaries, and now this good/bad split... and yet any desire to blame others is utterly gone.  In looking more closely at these things, I was afraid that my own anger and bitterness would be magnified, but it's not.
Thank God! He really does make all things new again.

[Gabben]

Hi Carlolyn,


This thread has proven to be insightful for me. I can identfy with traits of the perfectionist and I am known for isolation.

The deep wound of abandonment is at the heart, at least for me.

This stuff here is so good I need some time to reflect more -- I think that I am going to buy the book.

Thanks,
Lise

[Certain Hope]

Oh, that would be neat, Lise! I just think it's an awesome resource, but maybe it's more about this being the right time for me to finally grasp this stuff. I can feel my entire perspective shifting as I read these simple truths... and so much old rubbish being washed away.

Thanks for your post!

Carolyn

[Certain Hope]

Okay, while I have the time and opportunity, just to finish up the section I started...


The fourth and final way in this short list that sins against us may have affected our development is:

We were not allowed to mature into adults.

Our last developmental need deals with the task of taking on an adult role in life. It is moving from the child's one-down position
to the equal and mutual position of being a grown-up.

All of us start off life as an untrained, immature infant. We have unformed values, gifts and talents, emotions, and potentials.
The primary job of parenting is to help us mature this confusing mass of thoughts and feelings into an adult who is able to function independently. Being an adult means taking our own roles in life.

How can we be sinned against in our need to become adults? Here are some ways:

One-up relationships:  Others who treat us as if we were children.

One-down relationships:  Others who treat us as if we were parents.

Control:  Others who need to be in charge of our lives.

Criticism:  Others who attack when we challenge their thinking.

When our emerging adult-ness is disrupted, we encounter breakdowns in functioning.
For example, some people become compliant,
obsessive, rule-bound individuals.
Some react and become domineering, controlling, parental-types themselves.
And some become rebellious, resisting authority figures long beyond their teenage years.

None of these positions solve the problem
of becoming a grown-up. They are compromises in character development.

How does the adult-injured individual suffer from safety problems?

In major ways, but the common denominator is this: They are unable to relate to safe people because safe people encourage adultness.
Safe people tend to bring out the best in us, because love "believes all things" (1 Corinthians 13:7) And that's risky.
Because we might just start acting like the adult our friends see inside us.

In other words, the adult-injured person is terrified of moving out of the child role, mainly because they were repressed by authority figures and fear criticism.
Even though they resent authority, they are afraid of challenging it. And safe relationships create the possibility of a frightening power shift and subsequent conflict.

The list of symptoms attached to disruptions within this area of development is pretty much the same as with the others... but at least one addition to the list caught my eye - - -
a "you can't do that!" attitude.  Very familiar.

Part 2 of the book looks into the question "Do I Attract Unsafe People?"

If anything jumps out at me from reading there, I'll share it. Hope this has helped... I've enjoyed the interactive approach and really appreciate everyone's time and input.
Thanks!!

Carolyn

[Certain Hope]

Shaming - others condemning us for our negative qualities.

I wanted to highlight this point, as I have been accused of `shaming' and I do not believe that the accusation is correct. In fact I do believe that I go to great lengths to communicate the sense of acceptance and understanding that I feel for others, and it is a river that runs deep with me.  So it is a point of frustration for me if I am accused of shaming someone.

If someone's `negative qualities' include behavior towards me that is abusive or  aggressive in any way, I will call them on it. I will not like the behavior, I may even condemn the behavior.

But it would take a lot of consistant abuse before I would call that person an abuser. An abuser, in my mind, is someone who feels a sense of entitlement to their aggression, and cannot be reasoned with over time. Someone who abuses me once or twice does not fit into that category, but I will not like the behavior and will say so.

Condemning behavior is not condemning a person.

I hope this helps to clear up a conflict that has emerged lately on this thread.

X bella

Dear Bella,

I believe that you're right - condemning behavior is not condemning the person.

I also believe that telling another person how you feel about your own personal interpretation of their behavior is not the same as making an accusation.

After reading back through this thread, I'm not seeing that you were accused of anything, Bella... or even that you were involved in any dispute or controversy here. I may be wrong... and, of course, the main concern is how you are feeling about it now, not what anyone's intentions were...  so please feel free to continue talking about it here as you desire!
It's very difficult and painful to feel misunderstood and unheard, I know. In no way do I want to contribute to that.
On another thread, I made a remark about back-patting which I think offended you, and for that, I want to apologize.

One other thing which comes to mind .... I've learned here that sometimes a person is sensed to be guilty of something purely by association. This has happened to me, too...
and it's not fair or right, and yet... I can understand it.

Having my own stuff to sort through, I just want you to know that I'm not standing hyper-objectively and patronizingly outside the mess to tell you, "oh, pshaw, it's nothing."  I just really don't know how else to try to help than to listen, to present what I see, and to say...  yes, any time you feel that someone is being abusive or aggressive toward you, you should call that person on it!
Whether or not perfect agreement is reached, at least everyone involved should be honest about their feelings, I think.

Love,
Carolyn

[Certain Hope]

--then this was from Hope, Hi there

Even though they resent authority, they are afraid of challenging it. And safe relationships create the possibility of a frightening power shift and subsequent conflict.

I see this as my family as a Group, as with all of us being senior citizens, there is still no difference in the relationships from as far back as I can remember.
==========
I now value my solitude and no longer am interested in any deep conversations about the last 69 years. I know all my good points and my bad points
I am learning assertiveness enjoy my work and play time, and I doiubt I could make a friend who would ever understand me, so I have acquaintances who know nothing about the Dizzy-Izzy years.

xx
Izzy

Hi, Iz,

I think that's the case for my family of origin, too... which is tiny, really... still my parents and one brother... still acting out just as always, with me - out of the loop.

In relationship with genuinely safe people, accountability is the order of the day. Unpleasant as that can be, those of us who long for maturity recognize how indispensable it is, I think! Accountability, personal responsibility, the breaking out of old molds... scary stuff for someone who doesn't know that she/he has a foundation of her own on which to stand.

(((((((Iz))))))) I always enjoy hearing you define and re-define yourself and your situation through these threads. You're all there, lady.

Love,
Carolyn