Safe People

[Certain Hope]

Dear Carolyn,

I understand your allegences and thoughts on this issue, and have read all your posts; I agree with some of your thoughts, but strongly disagree with the idea that we should  `be more understanding' when abuse and aggression are directed at us when it is due to someone's triggers. I also strongly disagree that mis-directed aggression, unfounded accusations, and character slurs are not abuse. They are abuse, in the objective sense.

If this has not been your message, then I  apologize, but this seems to  be along the lines of what you keep saying  and it is most invalidating. From my perspective, you are feeding into that person's sense of entitlement to abuse me, and it is hurting me, as well as my future relationship with that person. I think perhaps the situation may have resolved itself and a better understanding reached if others had not have become involved and protected or justified the abuse.

The biggest hurdle in our friendship right now is the sense of entitlement that person feels to accuse me of thinking this or that, or being this or that, whenever I offer a slightly different spin on a topic for discussion. This `demonising' feeds her aggression. Its exactly the same dynamic that occurs in narcissistic abuse, where the abuser `demonises' the victim, so that in their minds the aggression is justified.

I wanted to put a stop to that, but because of others becoming involved i see this happening all over again, because I am not going to stop using my voice here, such as in this case where I offered a slightly different spin on the term enabling. If others think I deserve abuse and aggression for possessing a slightly different view on things sometimes, it makes this a lesser place in my eyes. But i will not shut myself down on recovery from voicelessness forum, and nor should anyone have to do that.

((((((Bella))))))) I am so sorry that you've been hurt. I'm especially sorry to know that I have contributed to your pain.

I don't think you've correctly interpreted my meaning in the summary you've given... but this is getting too confusing for me to sift, at this point.
I feel like the terms keep changing... and so I will focus on the bottom line:  you feel invalidated by me.

I'm sorry, Bella. I don't know what I can do to change that or ease it for you. I have spoken up as clearly and directly as I know how, and yet I am not able to give you the response you desire. I don't want to bring any additional examples of behavior into the mix because that will only enflame things, nor do I want to cite past events - for the same reason.

There's one thing I would like to say about my "becoming involved" in this. My first post into this issue came about because of a reference on the Shame and Anger thread which cited my "last post on the Safe People thread". Because of that, and only because of that, did I begin to follow along with events. From that point, I did post to Hermes, in an attempt to defuse what I believed was a misunderstanding in progress because of the clashing of 2 extremely different personalities - and not one of those personalities was yours, Bella.

The rest of this is a bit of a mystery to me, but clearly you hold me responsible for interfering.. and so again, I am sorry.

I hope that you'll forgive me and I look forward to your continuing to use your voice here.

With love,
Carolyn

[Certain Hope]

Dear Carolyn,

I understand your allegences

Dear Bella,

For the first time, I just read through that old thread on God/religion, a thread on which I never had any intention of participating... or even of reading.
It just so happened that as I was reading through teartracks' pasts posts recently, I saw her comments on the God/religion thread and replied... because I thought she'd made such a lovely, inspiring tribute to what I believe, as well.  Other than that, I'd formed no attachment to anyone's view on that thread topic (or any other!) and was unaware of all the flap therein.

What I'm trying to say, Bella, is that I have no blind allegiances, to the best of my conscious awareness... only an allegiance to God and to the truth. That's not nearly as high and mighty as it may sound, either. What I mean is - I am entirely aware of my capacity for self-deception (and other-deception!) and so I don't hop onto anyone's bandwagon, but rather attempt to address specific issues as I am able to perceive them.

If I'd known of  your experience on that God/religion thread, I might have better understood what was happening recently.. but I didn't.
Once I did, I returned here to read your post to me and the word "allegiance" jumped out, as did what you said about the "sense of entitlement" to accuse you.  I have one suggestion to offer about that... and at the risk of angering you, I'm going to offer it, because it's something I've experienced personally and not recognized at the time.  Bella, sometimes what appears as a sense of entitlement to accuse or offend is actually a sense of safety in others about and toward you. I know that can be a really negative thing and, of course, you and I both need to hold to our boundaries, lest someone think they can trample all over us, and yet... please just consider that if I did not consider you a safe person, I would not even be able or willing to address this much to you.
I hope that makes some sense. If not, I'm sorry... just thought it was worth trying to put out there.

Love,
Carolyn

[Gabben]

I'm sorry that I was not in a place to appreciate your ways, your style and approach, until now. Please accept my sincere apologies for misunderstanding you and especially for possibly sharing my misunderstanding with another. I never want to be responsible for colouring anyone's view of another human being and I'm committing to guarding my tongue in that regard.
As the fear which previously consumed me is dissipated, it's replaced by love...  and I long for the day when that love stretches to encompass a wider field. For now, I absolutely must guard my heart.

Carolyn

Hi Carolyn,

Just wanted to thank you for this. It is a beautiful expression of your consideration and warmth.

Lise

[Gabben]

Condemning behavior is not condemning a person.


gabs I'm not passively referring to you; I mean to address our situation directly.

Hi Bella,
 
It is clear that you think my behavior has been abusive? I have to strongly disagree. But just because I diagree does not mean that I am opposed or against your need to express this.

Also, if you were to really look, I mean really look at my posts, you would see that I have NEVER condemed you, I have only spoken of the behavior and how it has effected me.

Also, I am assertive and no nonsense, in other words I do not take crap. People often get that confused with abuse. But just like you said, the world is not so black and white.

Here is a thought. When we do something wrong, such has harm another or make a mistake, do not we naturally feel ashamed? We need not beat ourselves up because that is a waste of time and is unconstructive. But the shame perhaps can tell us that we have limits and others have limits and if you do not want to experience the uncomfortablness of hearing others express their limits and feelings in realtion to our behavior then it would be wise to make corrections.


It seems to me Bella is that you and Hermes keep thinking that I was triggered by you, I was NOT triggered by you and I was not upset with you. I hope that helps, it was never about you.

But dear Bella, could perhaps anything I have said or done be a trigger for you? Which is OK too.

(((((BELLA))))
Lise

[Gabben]

Carolyn,

This quote kept coming into my mind this past weekend so I wanted to share it with you, I know you know it:

Luke 15:7 "I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.


Lise

[Certain Hope]

Carolyn,

This quote kept coming into my mind this past weekend so I wanted to share it with you, I know you know it:

Luke 15:7 "I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.


Lise

Dear Lise,

Oh, yes, I know that quote... spoken by the Lord Jesus just shortly before He told the parable of the prodigal.

This particular passage is especially joyful to me, as it revealed something profound to me about the heart of God when my pastor taught on it awhile back and pointed out... well, here,
"In the same way, I tell you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." (from the NASB)

As pastor said, and who is rejoicing in this passage? Who is it there, in the presence of the angels?  God Himself, HE is doing the rejoicing. even as he does when those who are in the Son are "one" together in Him... (John 17).

ahhh... such wonderful news! Thank you, Lise 

And thank you for seeing the changes in my heart.

With love,
Carolyn
 

[Certain Hope]

Well, I've continued reading this book, but not posted on it... till tt's post re: the heart reminded me of this section.

Controversial though it may be, I'll share it here... because so much of it has proven true within my own life:



One of the chief reasons that we pick destructive people is that we're unable to judge character.

Many times, when we are choosing important people in our lives, we do not think of character as the main factor.
We look at how we feel, to whom we are attracted, or what seems to "pull" us toward a certain person.
Our choices are very subjective.

In a sense, matters of the heart are mostly subjective and unconscious, and that's not bad.
Soul connections should not always be made on a rational basis. What a boring life that would be!
The unconscious part of ourselves has a wisdom of its own, and in some ways our heart knows what it wants and needs.
That is valid.

But God has made us with two sides of our being, the rational and the emotional; when they are in conflict, we are in trouble.

We need to use both reason and emotion in our choosing of people. We get into danger when we ignore our reason, when we find our hearts are attracted to people that our heads know
better than to choose. At those times, we find ourselves picking people who cannot satisfy our needs and whose character does not measure up to our essential values.
Our hearts become disconnected from our values and in conflict with our true needs.
Because our hearts have been programmed to seek some sort of sickness inside, we find relationships that match the sickness inside our hearts.
For example,
many single Christians find themselves falling head over heels in lvoe with someone who is unloving and irresponsible.

Jesus warns us to face first that which is inside our own hearts, and only then will we be able to judge others accurately and pick safe relationships.

Our own character issues blind us to the destructiveness of other people.
We must first realize that we have a problem in being able to judge character
before we can stop playing the naive victim.


I see, most definitely, that this was the case for me, when I agreed to marry both the father of my children and npd-ex.
More later...

Carolyn

[Gabben]

One of the chief reasons that we pick destructive people is that we're unable to judge character.

Very true. This fits in with what I am always trying to say here on the board which is that "tears wash our eyes so that we can see th world better." If we have, which most of us do, unfinished business or trauma that never got resolved or worked through then we are going to be unconsciously making our way through life selecting people that we unconsciously know will wound in a way that resembles the original trauma or wound.

Until I started doing this real deep healing I could not discern people very well. Now my eyes are open and my ears are trained to listen to what people are not saying and to hear their emotions and where they are speaking from. Knowing yourself is key.

We need to use both reason and emotion in our choosing of people.

This is how I selected my roommates, my good new ones! Age factors and responsibility, character and asking them why the are moving in other words is there a history etc. Warmth and friendliness was important but is was a combination of things, keeping my eyes wide open and listening with my heart.

Jesus warns us to face first that which is inside our own hearts, and only then will we be able to judge others accurately and pick safe relationships.

This is good -- or cast out the log in thy own eye before you try to remove the splinter in someone elses...

Our own character issues blind us to the destructiveness of other people.
We must first realize that we have a problem in being able to judge character
before we can stop playing the naive victim.

Yep -- we have a part in our victim patterns. Looking back I realize that I choose N saint, my unconscious choice because  I was blind to my own pain.

My therapist confirmed for me this weekend, that her behavior is far more destructive and she is far more acting out the N traits in her life than I was or am, she was projecting onto me her N stuff -- mud sticks best to clean spot but she was still seeing the splint in my eye the splint that I have been trying to remove.

Thanks Carolyn for this -- I've ordered the book!

Lise

[Certain Hope]

Isolation and fear of abandonment:

Our lack of connection is a big reason why we choose unsafe people.

If we're not able to connect in an intimate way with others, then we will often pick people who are unable to connect as well.
When someone is feeling isolated inside herself, she is likely to pick isolating relationships - - repeatedly - - until she addresses her own problems (the inner isolation from self).

The fear of abandonment fuels an ongoing isolating connection.
Many times, someone who is in a painful relationship really should set strong disciplinary boundaries - or cut off the relationship altogether for a time.
But she fears being alone so much that she can't do it.
Each time she considers standing up to the other person, or getting out of the relationship, she is overwhelmed by feelings of loss and aloneness, and either avoids taking the difficult step to begin with... or quickly caves in.

"This all or nothing split keeps the isolation and the abandonment going"...  such a vicious circle!


This has been absolutely true of me in the past. Because I had no primary safe and supportive relationships, I chose to have unsafe relationships... rather than nothing at all.
My own upbringing gave me no sense of self, but only models which I saw as fake and phony... can't emulate a phantom.
Rejecting those models, I threw myself into relationships with men who were completely different from my parents externally and by belief system, yet equally empty and devoid of intimacy.
That cycle has continued for 30 years, in with relationships of all sorts... including friendships with vampirish people who appeared to be emotionally equipped but who really only wanted to dump their feelings onto me because they refused to feel them themselves... or, worse yet, demanded constant attention and adulation as proof of "friendship".

Enough of that!


Lise... I hope you enjoy the book!

[Certain Hope]

After inability to judge character
and
Isolation and fear of abandonment,
the third reason given for our choices of unsafe people is "Defensive Hope".

The authors define this as hope that protects us against grief and sadness.
In other words, simply hoping that a person will change can sometimes keep us from facing the pain which we need to face.
We tend to think that if we just love them correctly, or more, or enough,  the unsafe people will change...
or if we just let them know about their mistakes, or cry the blues, or get angry... that then they'll behave differently.

This sort of defensive hope disappoints, because in these scenarios, we're using hope to defend ourselves against facing the truth, reality, about someone we love. We try to protect ourselves from the sadness of admitting that they're not likely to change... and so we hope.

Usually, this sort of hope didn't just begin in our current relationships, though. Generally, we have an old pattern of not facing grief and disappointments in many past relationships, all the way back to our childhoods.

Facing the grief and sadness is so difficult because it places the responsibility for change upon us, ourselves, instead of hoping that the unsafe person is going to change. We must learn to stop expecting her to change, to adapt, to get the courage to set limits and consequences and make many more tough choices which may change our relationships.

Not facing reality means we stay stuck and get more of the same in the future. According to the authors, defensive hope is one of the biggest reasons we allow destruction to continue in life.

[ann3]

Carolyn,

You remind me why I loved this book.  That trifecta or triple play really sums up my life-
1. Inability to judge character-How could I?  When you're raised in an N family, how can you accurately judge character?  I didn't know they were being abusive and I didn't know that I didn't have to take the abuse.  When you're raised in an N family, you take a lot of cr*p from people because you don't know any better.  You think everyone is like that and that's just how life is.

2.  Isolation and fear of abandonment- For sure.  I really liked the way you talked about choosing people who are unable to connect.  This left me feeling frustrated, lonely and isolated.

3.  Defensive Hope-  Perhaps this is the worst of the 3.  Always hoping that if I just did this or that, things would get better, but of course they never did and I would blame myself and just try harder.  A vicious cycle that wore me down and evetually left me in stage 2:  Isolation, you just give up because you're tired of the pain and being hurt.

What a magnificent book.  Thank you for discussing it.  I love Townsend and Cloud.

[axa]

Carolyn,

Thank you for posting about this book.  I have found it so insightful.  I have been such a bad judge of charcter because of my own abandonment issues.  The words jumped off the screen at me.  Descriptions of unsafe people were like the script of my relationship with XN.  I have known for a long time that I am blind to unsafe people/men particularily and while I understand the theory it is the "feeling" that is like an addiction to me.  All rational thought is overridden by my need to be with the Nperson and the "highs" that brings.........I am hoping this is in the past now.  I appreciate very much your clear and honest postings on safe people............. I hope I am learning from this.  The struggle for me is to not hide in isolation as a way of keeping "safe"

Many thanks,

axa

[Certain Hope]

Dear Annie and Axa,

I'm so glad to know that these posts are helping... thank you for posting to say so!
Cloud and Townsend are two of my favorites, as well, Ann

Looking back at my life, it's easy to see that being a rotten judge of character has been one of my most obvious troubles for so long... that it still amazes me nobody pointed it out to me sooner.
But I guess my mother did... just I never considered her a credible witness. Actually, what I recall her saying was, "I guess you just didn't think very much of yourself.  Fact was, if I knew she didn't care for someone, that just gave that person
more points, in my book. Good grief, I have messed up big time in trying so hard not to be like her... and yet, still have some of her worst traits haunting me.

And the whole concept of Defensive Hope still startles me, because I have been accused by the abusers in my life of giving up on them - of writing them off - of demanding that they be perfect -
despite the fact that I'd already tolerated so much more than should have been allowed. But with the book's clear explanation of what defensive hope is (as opposed to hoping in the Lord Jesus, which is a sure and certain hope,
I am starting to be able to distinguish... and not feel so guilty for having and enforcing boundaries.

Anyhow, I'll continue adding bits here as I'm able, because it seems to help reinforce the material... for digestive purposes  ... and this stuff I think needs to be practiced daily... at least for me it does, because I am really slow at absorbing it and putting it into practical application.

With appreciation to you both,
Carolyn