Ns and Money

[bearwithme]

P.S.  I'm just feeling really bad right now about this.  I guess because it's Christmas time and my NM has mentioned so many times recently that she wants to "help" us and that she wants to "give" us money.  But she never does.  Weeks and months go by and she has not done a thing but calls to brag about the $12,000 home improvements and her newly planned trip to Israel that costs $7,000. 

I believe that giving comes from the inside and not the outside.  If you don't have any gifts on the inside, then the gifts on the outside are fake and meaningless.  They are not real gifts. You can not give a gift to someone if you have no gifts on the inside to give; therefore, you can not have just one of these so called traits.  You either have both traits or none at all.  Make sense?

My NM has no gifts to give in the first place.  I have to understand this.

Bear

[Ami]

Dear(( Bear))
 What you said about your NM not HAVING any gifts was profound! I hope I am seeing that finally, after ALL this pain!   xxxoo Ami

[sKePTiKal]

Suze gets on my nerves most of the time, but like you CB I have to admit that she makes some very good points; knows her "stuff".

Your book sounds interesting and also tantalizes my curiosity with wondering about something. I wonder how much our emotional beliefs about money - good, bad and just pragmatic - are interwoven with where we are in working on our old emotional issues. If beliefs and attitudes about money evolve, too... ya know?

And if, like the ways it's possible to inhibit our emotional lives/experiences out of defense of self... we also let attitudes/beliefs about money limit us, too? Denying ourselves happiness -- or security -- out of fear that someone will come along and say: you're not allowed! Who do you think you are??! ACONs and money... could be the other part of the story.

And my... aren't there a lot of different things to think about and look at... big and little; clear and fuzzy...

[Hopalong]

Huge and horrible topic for me, this.
I am terribly confused and struggling.

I brought my 29 y/o D from Florida to live with me while she finishes her MS. We'd had the agreement that when she was down to her last $1500, and hadn't found work, it would be time to move home. (Or, she said "Yes" when I said it.) She got down to her last $150 before she caved to the inevitable. I paid for the truck, gas, plane fare for her bf/helper, and told her I'd support her completely for 3 months but as of January she needed to contribute $200/month. So I'm doing all groceries, gas (we share my vehicle), her cell phone, clothes, cat food, rats to feed her snake, etc. It's what I agreed, it's okay.

BUT. Her bf dumped her and she was destroyed. Within two days, from crying in my arms, she turned around to vent all her rage on me. She called me, by email, a f**ing moron, a stupid bitch, a selfish bitch. I am: lazy, a narcissist, exactly like my mother, weak, etc, etc. She has been merciless. Sometimes when she's angry she watches boxing or extreme fighting (she loves it) on her laptop. I feel like she feeds her inner brutality and she's become someone I can't recognize. (Well, I do...her father.) We have agreed to find a family counselor but she has inserted many obstacles. We may not use my insurance because that would create an unequal power relationship. We have to go to a free service. I am required to help find someone. Every time I call somewhere, they ask, do you have insurance, and I say yes, but my daughter will not use it. So nobody is leaping to put us on their list.

Back to the topic. NOW I find I am resenting the money. I have spent thousands upon thousands to help her, bail her out, pay her rent, support a lifestyle she insisted on (her own apts. since long before she graduated and only a couple stretches with a roommate; an expensive Volvo that costs a ton to repair -- wouldn't consider buying a small practical import), etc., etc. I sent her to France with all my FF miles I'd accumulated working for years.

Anyway, what makes me sick is that you bet, I'm not feeling unconditional love for my own child right now. I'm struggling to love her at all. I'm resentful, I feel used, and I don't like her.

Money has something to do with it, but mostly, it's the way she treats me. I've just finally faced it. She's abusive.

Breaks my heart.

So I'll do the best I can to heal this, and to reawaken my heart, if we can get into counseling. I do love her. But it's more like loving a memory of a little girl I adored more than anything in the universe. This hostile, belligerent, controlling, sarcastic, entitled adult young woman scares and repels me.

Hops

[teartracks]

(((((((((((((HOPS!)))))))))))))

Love,

tt

[teartracks]

Tough subject - money!

I don't know how to present how I'm thinking presently about this thread and the ownership of money except to toss what I'm thinking into the black hole of fatalism.  Not sure it fits anywhere else.  What I'm thinking is that whoever has legal possession of a $ is the one who owns it and is the one who gets to say how it will be used/spent.   Does that mean it will be spent according to my standards?  No.  Does it guarantee that the owner of the money spends it in a way that does the most good for the most people?  No   Does it guarantee that the dollars he has are not ill-gotten gain somewhere in the backwash?  Would  the acceptance of will-gotten gain  have a backlash on me?  Just asking.  I don't have the answers...

tt

[teartracks]

Hi CB,

You can't really armwrestle anyone into handling money the way you think they should--or to think about money the way you do.

I think a bigger question for me is, what right does one monkey have to monkey with another monkey's money?    God gives some excellent counsel about money, but in the end, even He allows people to do with it as they choose or it would appear that way.  

This is a hard issue for me to try and dope out with my reductionism thinking.  When I think of the greed that has brought this country to its knees, I tend to think free-will, determinism, AND fatalism.  No conclusions.

tt



 

[ann3]

Hi CB,

Kinda outta left field in this discussion, but, I love to travel & Paris is my favorite city.  Go to Paris if you can find the $.  There are inexpensive airfares, hotels & food, especially in the off season.  I think foreign travel is life changing & gives new perspectives.  I know you love history & Europe is packed with it.  I  hope you can go because I think you'll love it.

[sKePTiKal]

oh... so many values & judgements & "stuff" regarding money... so many emotions about what is usually only 2 different "sides". There is always a middle way... even with money, except when there isn't enough.

Hops, sweetie - I hope, hope, hope that this is a "phase" that you'll both pass through on to another way of being with each other. It has to be hard - for you, to give up your space and to find the right "mom" role... and for the D, who's probably grappling with what she feels is a "failure" and "dependence".

I've been able to sidestep the issue of my hubby not having his own money (in a few short weeks) for a while. Soon, I won't be able to. So far, we've joked about his "allowance" and how he'll have to be "good"... and the potential does exist for power struggles. We haven't really brainstormed a defined solution yet... just have ideas. When I have time to think about it, I almost worry... but I don't think it's going to become a big issue (fingers crossed!). There are so many other changes happening at the same time, I think we'll find "what works" out sheer need.

[ann3]

Hi Bear,

I'm so sorry you're going thru this, but, let me be a cynical realist for a moment:

How about sitting down with NM & asking her politely to set up a college fund for your D?  I believe your NM can give your D $10K (or $11k) tax free each year.  Yes, this means you'll have to play the N game, but, how much do you want the $?  There are books &  movies about children of N parents "playing up" to the N parents in order to get an inheritance.  I'm not judging either way.  Maybe you want to explore whether you can play up to NM without losing your soul.  

In business, I once had someone tell me about the "Golden Rule":  he (or she) who has the gold makes the rules.  Man, is that ever true.  If NM has the gold, then she makes the rules, so the question becomes can you live with her rules?  I wish you the best, whichever way you decide.

IMO, Ns use money &/or gifts to control other people, especially their kids.  So, IMO, the question becomes do we want to play the N game?  Whether we decide to play the N game or not, there are consequences for our decisions.  What can we live with & what can't we live with?  And, can we get to that point where our own feelings of resentment towards our NPs don't wind up destroying ourselves?

[Ami]

Hi Bear,

I'm so sorry you're going thru this, but, let me be a cynical realist for a moment:

How about sitting down with NM & asking her politely to set up a college fund for your D?  I believe your NM can give your D $10K (or $11k) tax free each year.  Yes, this means you'll have to play the N game, but, how much do you want the $?  There are books &  movies about children of N parents "playing up" to the N parents in order to get an inheritance.  I'm not judging either way.  Maybe you want to explore whether you can play up to NM without losing your soul. 

In business, I once had someone tell me about the "Golden Rule":  he (or she) who has the gold makes the rules.  Man, is that ever true.  If NM has the gold, then she makes the rules, so the question becomes can you live with her rules?  I wish you the best, whichever way you decide.

IMO, Ns use money &/or gifts to control other people, especially their kids.  So, IMO, the question becomes do we want to play the N game?  Whether we decide to play the N game or not, there are consequences for our decisions.  What can we live with & what can't we live with?  And, can we get to that point where our own feelings of resentment towards our NPs don't wind up destroying ourselves?

This hits a nerve with me (((Ann))). Brilliant , as usual!       xxxoo  Ami

[ann3]

Hi Ami!!

Hope you're doing well.

Well, I put on my Machiavellian pragmatic hat to write that post.  As I have lurched & tip toed thru the minefield of Nism, here's something I have learned:

a)  If someone is an N, and
b)  they have money (&/or power), then,
c) they will seek to use that money (&/or power) to control others, especially their kids & employees

If we accept the above, then we should ask ourselves:  How much do I need the N's $?  How can I innoculate myself from the N's poison if I accept the N's money?   Can I walk away from the N & their money & be OK financially & spiritually?

[sKePTiKal]

Ann, I think you've hit on something without saying it directly...

your way of thinking about Ns & money, actually puts "power" back in your corner... by consciously choosing to engage in the Ns game for a specific result (and realizing that even resentment of the N can be a "point" for them)... you are, in reality, protected from the old slinging arrows... free of "games"...

That ties in with the idea I had about "where we are in our work" and our attitudes about money. I see money as a means to an end - what's important to me are the things that money can do... and usually that means what money can do for others I care about. But now, I'm also "allowing" myself to do some things for myself, too. Ordinary things: hair cuts, a new purse, make up... clothes... because I can now finally afford it, without jeorpardizing my "responsibilities". I still don't "want" a whole lot. I'm just not that materialistic, was never into status symbols, and I simply don't understand how some people think that the things they own make them "better" people than others who don't have those things.

The N way of thinking about money, is that it's the money itself that's important... and that it confers some magical, god-like status upon themselves. They actually fear parting with it for that reason, I think. But, I don't envy very wealthy people; never have. They are just people like the rest of us and the only difference is just in the balance in their checking accounts.

It's only money, after all.

[ann3]

Hey Amber & CB,

Yes:  If we need (or want) the N's $ and we can figure out how to do so w/o allowing the N to (as CB says) steal our peace, then go for it.  And yes, figuring out a way to make up for the lack of N's $ & not play the N game: priceless.

Amber, you raise a huge realization I've found in my N experience:  "by consciously choosing to engage in the Ns game for a specific result (and realizing that even resentment of the N can be a "point" for them)... you are, in reality, protected from the old slinging arrows... free of "games"... ".  I guess the key, for me, is choosing consciously whether to play or not play.

CB:  I agree about cleaning apts.  There's no shame in that, instead, I think it demonstrates immense character that one will do whatever is necessary. 

CB, something struck me in your observations of the different families:  Like you, I have gone thru the N ringer.  However, I now feel that I'm never sure what I observe in a family:  The closeness could be enmeshment (which I now see occurred in my family) & the non-closeness among family members may be healthy distance.  For me, going thru the N journey has made much of the world into an Escher (the artist) print:  I'm not quite sure what I see:  closeness or enmeshment.

[Hopalong]

I know it's corny, but I'm thinking of attending the Dave Ramsey show's
Financial Peace University in a town 45 minutes from here. It costs about $90.

I already have access to the book and CDs but am thinking something about
the group participation could really be energizing and just what I need to let
go of my "fiscal fears" and actually take better charge of them.

In the very practical sense, it will eat up Sunday nights for a while, and there's
the cost of gas. On the other hand, it feels...positive. Like action to counteract
anxiety.

Anybody have any experience with the program? I know what the steps
are, but just wondered if anyone here has thoughts about it.

thanks,
Hops