Ns and Money

[ann3]

Hops,

I've never done Financial Peace, but I love Dave Ramsey, watch him almost every night.  If you call them & explain your situation, they may even waive the fee.  He does that for callers to his show.

[Hopalong]

Thanks, Ann!
I must be losing it, but I swear I wrote you a post thanking you (belatedly) for your kind words and apologizing for not thanking you by name...earlier...but lord knows what happened to it.

I do appreciate your input and thanks for the suggestion.
I don't know if I'll ask him (lots of folks are harder up than I).

But I'll tell you that my D and I listened to the first CD (she got them from a friend who attended FPU) together tonight, and it was a moment of peace and solidarity for us after a horrible week of squabbling.

I felt so good about it. Maybe that's REALLY his "mission" -- to bring people together with a sense of purpose.

I need to start watching him on TV, not sure my cable lineup (the minimum one) includes it, but I'll check.

Hops

[ann3]

Thank you, Hops.  I just wanted to see if you were OK w/ me.  Again, no biggie, no drama.  IMO, if one were looking to develop a better relationship with money, Ramsey's the man. 

[HeartofPilgrimage]

Hi Hops,

My husband and I just finished FPU! It was good. One of the points Dave Ramsey makes is that you save FIRST for retirement, THEN for your kids' college ... which although college is not really your issue, it does go to the point he makes: You are responsible first to take care of your own old age (so that you don't have to rely on your kids, at least if you can possibly avoid it), and college is not a right, it's a privilege. I say ditto for any help we give our young adult children.

To some of the others that have made comments on this thread ... I was going to make this point yesterday, and I guess failed to press "post" before taking the kids to school: If we stop expecting anything out of Ns, then we will not be disappointed and angry when they just act like themselves. There have been a few posts here about the anger that comes when Ns promise to help and then they either don't do it, or when they help it comes with unbelievable and unreasonable strings attached. I think the anger comes because we keep thinking "OK, now she's changed, she's going to help out" and then she kicks us in the teeth again. IMO, the key to this problem is not to expect anything. If they promise something, don't expect them to follow through. If they do follow through, it's a pleasant surprise, but don't get your hopes up that anything fundamentally has changed. They are still Ns and they will still dangle stuff out there to entice us and then snatch it away in the future. In fact, every once in a while following through on a promise can be a N way of keeping you on the hook.

If your N does follow through, the money or aid given usually comes with unreasonable strings ... they think their money or help gives them the right to run your life and to throw it up to you forever. In this case, you have to be strong enough to recognize when their strings are unreasonable and to ignore them (otherwise it's probably worth going bankrupt to refuse their help). Reasonable strings include things like using the money for the purpose it was given, paying it back in a timely manner if it was a loan, and taking reasonable steps to keep from needing to be bailed out again. Unreasonable strings include thinking they can now criticize you and say anything that comes into their head about your finances or other aspects of your life; that they have a standing invitation to show up without announcement and stay as long as they want ... I could go on and on with the unreasonable strings Ns can attach to their "help".

Hopalong, I feel with you in your distress over your daughter. Young adult children, especially the ones who keep boomeranging back home, are the most difficult stage to know what to do with. IMO it even trumps potty-training as the hardest stage in parenting! And I had three boys, none of whom gained bowel control before their third birthday, so that's saying a lot! I kept mulling over all the things in my mind, whether any of them would be helpful, and have come to the conclusion that I don't know anything you don't. The hard part is not knowing in our heads what to do (set boundaries, insist on being treated with respect, etc.), the hard part is the pain in our hearts.

Love, HoP

[JudyK]

  My NM never worked outside the house since I was born. Yet she always complained the family didn't have enough money. She let my dad know this, frequently. When Easter came around she made sure we knew that SHE would go without a new outfit AGAIN, so we could have new ones.
   When my great aunt died and left her neices (one being my mom), a substantial inheritance, my Dad casually mentioned that maybe they could take some trips. NM made it perfectly clear that it was HER money. This after my dad carted my great aunt around for years, because she didn't drive.
    Years ago, the whole family went on a vacation. First night there, my mother had $165.00 stolen. For the WHOLE rest of the week, all she did was complain, and cry, and said she wished she were dead. My sister kept telling her she could get her the money back, via insurance (which she did) but to no avail.
    She is envious of anyone who has more than she does. Over Thanksgiving, she was complimenting me (never did this until recently, I think she's trying to buy her way into heaven) and said that all of us girls (her children) had good taste but my decorating is better because I have cash!!???  Really? Well maybe that's because I got off my ass, went back to school, and decided to work! She has no clue that my BIL makes a better salary than my husband. Anyway, who CARES?  Only she does, because she is a jealous, lazy, self absorbed witch.

[bearwithme]

To everyone on this thread.  THANK YOU!!!!!!  You are so on the money!!!! (pun intended)

This give me so much to contemplate and I now may realize that there may be peace for me should my NM's money come into play for me and/or my daughter, or not.  Regardless of my NM's view of money and her attempts to control me with it, it does not mean I should live in her N jail for any reason whatsoever.  Normal people who decide to give money to those in need or as a gift to someone, etc., they don't hold it over their heads or brag about it nor do they resent the person to whom they gave it to.  This is how it should be in life. 

I've been in her N jail for a life time and money should not put be back there. I won't let it.  I'll take the money and run!  Ahhh haaaaa haaaaaa aaahhh haaaaaa!!!!

Bear.

[nolongeraslave]

It's true that normal people don't expect to control you if they lend you money. I've lent my parents money in the past, and you don't see me resorting to N tactics. Normal people actually feel remorse if they're hurting someone's feelings or violating their boundaries.


My NM's money isn't technically "her money" either. She's mooching off my step-dad and even occasionally takes some of my brother's SSI check.  She will act as if it's "her money", so she can make me feel guilty.  When I feel guilty, it's easier for her to abuse me and hold me emotional hostage (I'm working on that). 

However, if you act like "her money" becomes yours..she will rip your head off. I wonder how she would feel if my step-dad says he can abuse her (he's very passive), just b/c he supports her.

[bearwithme]

NAS: good point about your step dad and you NM!! 

My MN and money:  When my daughter was 7 months old, I decided to go back to work part time because we needed the money and my maternity leave income had been long over with.  We made a deal with my NM to watch the baby only on Wed, Thurs, and Fri only from 11 to 5:30.  We asked her if she would be interested because we could not afford the day care prices in our area so my NM agreed to do it.  We offered to pay for her gas to travel to our place, food and arrangements for her to spend the night for the two nights since she lives pretty far and she doesn't like to drive at night. 

We also paid my NM to watch the baby, a wage she would have earned at her part time job that she voluntarily works at.  At about the 3rd month into her watching our daughter NM and I had a confrontation about her, well, about her being an N, and during her tirade she said, "All my friends think that you guys are ripping me off!! I should be getting paid WAAAYYYY MORE than the pennies you guys give me!!"

When I told my friends and other family members what she said, they are nothing but appalled and said, "what grandmother EXPECTS to get paid for watching their own grandchild????"  I don't know of one other than my NM.

Bear

[Butterfly]

Ha!  Ns are so typical.  My NM told me when my children were babies that I should not expect her to be "babysitting all around the clock" because she had a life and, besides, they were my responsibility . . . etc. etc.  And, so she often refused to watch them when I asked (I only asked if I was in a pinch and really needed help).  And when she did agree to look after them, she, without fail, would arrive at least 30 minutes late so that I could never plan anything. 

Then, get this, when they turned 4 years old, she told me that she was no longer interested in them because they were too old.  She actually said "I prefer babies and toddlers, NOT 4-year-olds."  Needless to say, I counted my lucky stars and quickly went NC. 

Blah!  Ns are just yucky. 

[bearwithme]

Ha!  Ns are so typical.  My NM told me when my children were babies that I should not expect her to be "babysitting all around the clock" because she had a life and, besides, they were my responsibility . . . etc. etc.  And, so she often refused to watch them when I asked (I only asked if I was in a pinch and really needed help).  And when she did agree to look after them, she, without fail, would arrive at least 30 minutes late so that I could never plan anything. 

Then, get this, when they turned 4 years old, she told me that she was no longer interested in them because they were too old.  She actually said "I prefer babies and toddlers, NOT 4-year-olds."  Needless to say, I counted my lucky stars and quickly went NC. 

Blah!  Ns are just yucky. 

Butterfly, OMG!  That is so bad.  How has it been going since you went NC? How long has it been? And does your NM call you or try to get involved with your kids?  I have been really contemplating it for some time now and I battle with the guilt and feeling sad for my daughter and the grandma relationship thing. 

Bear

[Butterfly]

Hi, Bear.  Going on two years at NC/LC, mostly NC except for some nasty emails from NM and NF.  As I learned more and more about N, I began to change not only how I handled my relationship with NM but how I lived my own life.  Since NMs behavior included extreme control over the money, livelihoods, and social circles of her children, you can imagine how she hated it when I progressively became independent of her financially and socially.  I also got an education late in life.  So, all those things really helped me to distance myself.  I watched my siblings deteriorate and become unable to support themselves, hold jobs, or even function on a day-to-day basis because of her abuse and control.  They live with NM in her house, and they are in there late thirties/early forties, so, . . . I guess that speaks for itself. 

As my life progressed, NM's behavior deteriorated to the point where she was verbally abusive to me on a regular basis, and she did this in front of my children.  That, basically, is what made me realize what a destructive person she was for me and my family.  So, I don't have guilt about my children not having a relationship with grandmom.  I only wish I went NC sooner so that my kids would have no memories of her.  In my heart I know that encouraging my children to have a relationship with someone abusive, destructive and hurtful cannot bring anything positive to their lives.  The only thing that I really miss is having someone who thinks my kids are special and amazing and would help them, visit them, love them--all the things a loving grandparent would do.  But, I know that my NM would not do those things--she is only interested in what my kids can do for her, how they make her look to her church friends, and how much attention they would pay to her. 

As for the money, I feel much better knowing I can make it on my own without her.  And, if she disinherits me, oh, well. 

She does send an occasional email, but most of the sentences start with I and all of the pronouns are me, my and mine.  Then, she will close by saying, "Call us if you need us, we're here for you dear" or some such yuck as if I am some sort of prodigal daughter who left the family fold.  I will say, this, though--the more I stay away, the more clearly I can see the dysfunction and abuse for what it is/was. 

No regrets.

[bearwithme]

   She does send an occasional email, but most of the sentences start with I and all of the pronouns are me, my and mine.  Then, she will close by saying, "Call us if you need us, we're here for you dear" or some such yuck as if I am some sort of prodigal daughter who left the family fold.  I will say, this, though--the more I stay away, the more clearly I can see the dysfunction and abuse for what it is/was. 

No regrets.

Awesome.  I can relate eventhought I have not gone NC.  I'm a little LC right now but it's touch and go.  The less I talk with my NM the less she calls me and says she's too busy to talk with me as her home renovations have begun and the $20,000 improvements are fantastic, her dream of dreams.  Nice.

I think NM's can't fathom us being NC so they talk about themselves out of nervousness or something....can't really explain it.

Interesting thread...I like it.

Bear

[Butterfly]

Bear,

   I'm a little LC right now but it's touch and go.  The less I talk with my NM the less she calls me and says she's too busy to talk with me as her home renovations have begun and the $20,000 improvements are fantastic, her dream of dreams.  Nice.

I can relate to the infrequent calls upon LC.  I, too, initially received little contact from NM when I stopped having much to do with her.  But, after about 6 months, all of a sudden, I received a quite a few calls and emails all intended to 1)  let me know that she was not affected by my silence, 2) berate and humiliate me for not contacting her enough, 3) criticize my life, family, job, house . . . .  I put my foot down and simply told her the "rules" for contact if she wanted to hear from me.  (be polite, no screaming, no criticisms, etc., nothing too overly taxing)  But, she was not able to follow the rules.  Thereafter, when my response was to not respond to her nasty communications, I received a large check in the mail.  Wonder of all wonders.  I kept the money, but, I still did not increase my contact.  I am sure that this loss of control over me made her insane. 

Truly, I don't miss her at all.  I am learning that I am the only one who can fill the empty place left behind in her wake.  Tough stuff. 


Joy

[bearwithme]

Wow Butterfly.  That must have made her REALLY  insane!  The money issues continue and today I go a phone call from my brother about my NM sending him a gift.  He told me verbatim what she said and I just wanted to drive to her house and punch her lights out

It's such a long convoluted story.  Basically, she wants praise and compliments for giving us gifts or money, etc.  NM wants nothing but glorification for her supposed "gift" giving act.  It's so sick.

I believe she has no gifts to give since she has no gifts on the inside of her.  And we can't thank her enough when we do thank her for her so-called "gifts."  She will always feel empty as we can not fill that void where her supposed "giftedness" would be inside of her-- so our thanks go into a deep, dark hole of nothingness.  She had no gift to begin with so that's why she will always feel empty and no matter how much we glorify her, she will turn around and say, "you kids aren't appreciative of what I bought/gave you."  The woman's appetite to feel validated is insatiable.

NM is so selfish.

Bear

[bearwithme]

I wanted to bump this subject because I have an present issue and need some advice.

As you may be aware, my NM has a significant amount of money at the present moment and is basically, well, an N with money and awful!  LOL!  Anyways, almost 2 years ago, me, my husband and daughter had to move 500  miles away from friends and family due to his job.  We haven't been home since because of our budget (I was forced to quit my job) and would love to go home this summer to see everyone including part of my husbands family who lived close to us back home. 

When talking with my NM on the phone yesterday about us not being able to visit this year, she became upset.  She wasn't upset at me, per se, even after I told her plain and simple, "No mom, we aren't coming at all," but stated that she needed to see us and her granddaughter (given I never invite her up here to see us because of her Nism! ).

She told me that she would pay for us to rent a beach house back home for a week with "no questions asked."  I WAS SHOCKED!!   But I said NO!!  I kept saying no but she pleaded and asked me if she could explain herself.  So my NM went on to say that we would need a place of our own so that family and friends can come to us.  In other words, we wouldn't have to worry about driving around a 90 mile radius with a 2 year old just to see everyone.  Also, there is really nobody that we can stay with except for my husbands brother, who's wife (who I think is an N herself) hasn't been that pleasant to me over the years and I don't feel comfortable staying with them for an extended period of time-- even if they are family (note: my husband and I argue about this a lot and I feel like the bad guy by not wanting to stay with them).

My NM said that she's going to write me a check, etc., and really tried to sell me on the idea.  She was practically begging me which was an odd feeling.

Truth is, this is what we need.  We need to see friends and family and need a vacation back home. I was in tears that we couldn't go.  Her proposal sounds so damn appealing and so tempting.  I feel that I deserve that she give this to us and I don't care what she thinks in the aftermath.  I want her to give us her money for what she's done to me.  I know, horrible to say but it's true.  I know, I know, I know she will hold this over my head and become a total N but what else is new?  At least we can use her money wisely and enjoy ourselves -- to a degree.

I feel like the ultimate selfish person by feeling this way and wanting to take her up on the offer.  She has never wanted to help us at all but I know that by her paying our way, she will get what she wants as well.  Ooooh, this is bad.....you scratch my back I'll scratch yours, and with an N???

I would like your input: the good, the bad and the ugly.

Bear