Estranged parents article

[Ales2]

Here is an article about the pain of elderly and aging parents who are estranged from their adult children.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/karl-a-pillemer-phd/estranged-children_b_1267734.html?ref=mindful-living&ir=Mindful%20Living

Not sure I agree with his assessments, but the comments were interesting.

Best to everyone,

A.

[BonesMS]

Here is an article about the pain of elderly and aging parents who are estranged from their adult children.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/karl-a-pillemer-phd/estranged-children_b_1267734.html?ref=mindful-living&ir=Mindful%20Living

Not sure I agree with his assessments, but the comments were interesting.

Best to everyone,

A.

Interesting comments, yes.  I get the sense that many of them have no clue what it is like to deal with a Narcissist who looks at you as her "property" for her own self-gratification.

[JustKathy]

This is really interesting, though the elderly people in the article do seem to be aware that they did something wrong. I don't think that's the case with an N. I'm quite sure that my NM feels that she lost me because I am, as she calls me, "the bad seed." I was born evil. She was a wonderful mother, but I was genetically damaged. It's ALL my fault.

In the case of my Co-Father, he knows exactly what he's done to hurt me, and he knows how to "make it right." He never will, though, because to do so would mean defying his Queen. Of the two of them, he's the one I expect will end up in the elder care situation described in the article. I don't know if my mother is faking her cancer or not, but even if she is, I expect Co-F to outlive her because he led such a healthy lifestyle. I'd like to think that after she's gone, he might reach out to me and make things right, but I know he won't. I had a therapist once who told me that in most cases, the co-spouse will continue to honor the wishes of the N long after death. In their mind it is still a betrayal if they don't.

This line especially hit close to home: "The elders acknowledge that once the rift sets in, it takes on a life of its own and becomes much more difficult to repair. The time to act is when the first warning signs show themselves." When the poop hit the fan with my father, it would have been very easy for him to immediately undo the damage. My husband even called him and pleaded with him, and told him what to do. But Co-F refused, because "You know how Kathy's mother is." Now, so much time has passed, it's a done deal. I will be the "lost child" that he will have to think about near the end. I feel terrible about that, but I wasn't the one who caused the rift. He threw me under the bus to protect his Queen. He'll have to live (and die) with the consequences.

[Ales2]

Yes - they have no idea ow to deal with Ns. I recently opened up to someone about the NMother situation - or I tried to keep it brief - an accupuncturist I started working with. Basically, I said, I'm post therapy but still have emotional triggers that I can feel in my body. Tight chest,  voice getting weak, elevated temperature and other things when confronted with certain situations and I need relief.

She was trying to be kind but eventually, the "she did the best she could" comes out. In my case (and of course, everybody here) Nism is toxic. Most events are unforgiveable and the abuse continues. Avoidance/NC is the only solution.

She also went into the neediness issue. People who are married for 20 plus years just dont know what they are talking about - how depressing it is to have to do everything by oneself and come home to an empty house. 

I went at a time when I was vulnerable, and forgot one of my own goals for the year, which is ending my pursuit of healing.No more gurus.  I think there is understanding, healing and doing. I keep finding things I want to do to heal (hypnosis, accupuncture etc) and I actually think its become counterproductive. I think it jeopardizes my autonomy and keeps me in an "I'm wounded and I need to heal" state rather than just getting on with life and having fun with it, warts and all.   Btw - I think that state of "I'm wounded" is ironic, because inherently there was never anything wrong with me, only an N who told me I was flawed in some way. So, it a vicious circle to believe and disbelieve there is something wrong with me and not wrong with me at the same time.  Yeech.

Anyway, about those pesky Ns. Last month, I had one of only two very brief conversation with my NMother in 2 years. I asked a couple of medical questions and she wanted to come visit me. I told her "what is the point of that". Silence. She didnt sound hurt, but I am sure she was. I think the people she talks with about me told her I'd want her back someday or would regret not having a relationship with her at some point, and they could not be more wrong about that. I've accepted who she is and that means I no longer wish for understanding or a relationship from her. I'm liberated, but still miserable, still have much to rectify in my life (job, new place to live, relationship) and unhealthy patterns to undo and change.

[sKePTiKal]

I think it jeopardizes my autonomy and keeps me in an "I'm wounded and I need to heal" state...

I've kinda come to the same conclusion (for some different kinds of reasons). And the one thing I know about me, is that the craving for that level of relationship isn't going to go away; unconsciously I'm going to be searching for it forever. But, since I know this about myself - I have a little more control over how I express it with other people - and I can remind myself not to expect that from relationships where that level of dependency isn't appropriate. Some things, I can give to myself. And I've learned to watch for - and really appreciate - the little ways that other people do try to "take care of" each other, and if I let them - me too. Insignificant things add up to a dictionary for this language I want to learn. I've learned that this unconscious craving means I need to balance autonomy with being connected to (and open to) others.

I'm just a beginner at this skill. I screw it up a lot. I'm amazed how forgiving a lot of people are, at my awkwardness.

[Ales2]

@Phoenix - what you said is very interesting about the lifelong craving for that level of relationship. Could you explain more about how you screw it up and how people are forgiving? I screw it up all the time, and when I do, as with the accupuncturist I usually disappear. I can't handle how much I reavealed and dont want to reveal more so I start anew more cautiously.  I'm aware now of what I have done in the past which is shut down and avoid or put on the happy face and have a good attitude (which did get me somewhere for awhile, just usually not a place I wanted.)

I look forward to your thoughts.

[sKePTiKal]

Well. I kinda take a deep breath and realize that it's usually only a huge transgression in my own mind; that the other person barely registered what I thought was a huge social faux pas. Most of the time that's the way things play out. It does require making further contact with the person - but not necessarily regarding said faux pas. After a couple years of this - I'm a bit more comfortable now. Not completely however.

That said - there are plenty of painful areas that still bother me as I'm in a new social setting completely. It's an adventure, for sure!

I guess we need to talk about some examples; it's kinda hard for me to handle this in the abstract. Each situation is slightly different for me... and each one has been a learning experience.

[sKePTiKal]

Some basic background - 2 years ago I left my 10 yr position in faculty training/tech support at a private university. I was the over-responsible, always available person people relied on. My job required me to establish a lot of relationships and increase the level of trust between my department and the faculty. I succeeded and wound up with some very good friends, as a result. Then I inherited an income/businesses when my Dad died. We moved to the beach. Now, our original plan was to buy a small "beach box" kind of home when we retired... but the income allowed me to think bigger. For the very first time in my life, I had to know "what I wanted"... and it took probably a year for me to finally figure that out. When people hear the community we live in, the response is usually - Oh, you live with THEM, the doctors & lawyers. This is painful, because I'm about as blue collar as it gets - and so is hubs. It's not the most exclusive or expensive community here... but it is... private. The neighborhood is full of people from all over the country - a microcosm of the people here at the beach overall - what I really like about this place is that it's like a silk-road caravanserai. All walks of life, different places, different experiences... have decided to locate here.  Artists, musicians, chefs, writers, mechanics, fishermen... it's rather like a university town in the kinds of people here... but everyone also works hard and there is a strong community sense, as well.

So I've had some "challenges" that have taken me way outside my comfort zone in the past couple years. Especially trying to get know my neighbors... find some new friends - even defining what I want that relationship to look like, because with a common activity like "work" or living next door to someone... I don't go out of my way, hardly ever... to be "social". I have tried to bring some of my old friends along with me... the two who "made it", are the woman I used to work closely with at school and my jr. high "best friend" - a relationship we've maintained through husbands, kids, etc. We mothered each other growing up - because neither of our mothers were too good at it. Her mother hated me simply because I was from the "wrong side of the tracks" and thought I would corrupt her daughter. More often than not, it was the other way around! But looking back, we both agree that we weren't nearly as "bad" as we thought we were at the time.

So, we were welcomed to the community in person and encouraged to join the yacht club. Not knowing thing one about who the people here were, we decided to join to meet and get to know our neighbors. Membership is mostly the retired folks in the community; a good portion of those are actually another generation older than we are. The boats aren't huge and I've heard there are a lot fewer boaters than there were, say 10 years ago. It's more a social club. A few are still working, have kids... and well - all my social anxiety "habits" built-in from my FOO days started up again. I started out purposely people-watching... hanging at the fringe... not engaging anyone. Hubs is social and chatty and his ego is pretty stoked about the change in our economic status. To me... that's crap and I don't do that kind social peacock kind of crowing. I want people to like me for ME... I am interested in making those more genuine, deeper kinds of connections rather than knowing the "who's who" and being a popular member of that group. Hubs and I have made jokes about us being like the Beverly Hillbillies and trying to fit in... but there's some truth in that. We have preconceptions of snobs... the country-club set... but we have both worked in that realm, too. We shouldn't be insecure - either of us - but this isn't work; it's social. And that's where this gets fuzzy...

I have also been in a "phase" of healing where I've been integrating my inner child self from the old FOOs days... dealing with the self-destructive and self-sabotaging kid-logic of her... and trying to get her to allow some re-parenting to happen, to let the old crap go and be who I can see she is instead of a cornered feral cat who scratches and hisses at everyone even when they're trying to be nice to me. I knew I craved a very long stretch of un-structured, un-scheduled, wide open time with no obligations to anyone or anything that didn't matter a lot to me. I am learning to actually HEAR Twigs and redirect her from the strategies she places so much value on - because it was necessary to her survival in the FOO. And I'm trying to teach her that other people - the rest of the world - doesn't necessarily work like her FOO did.

One thing hubs and I have done with that time, is explore what we feel we want to do with all this time. He loves options and choices - it's one of the reasons he's practically a shopaholic (needing that ego-status-stroking feeds into that too). Options, choices, elaborate comparisons overwhelm me with complexity... and I shut down; turn it off... numb out... and usually walk away. Let's take golf as an example of something we could do, that would be activity and social at the same time. Hubs used to golf... I have golfed - but it's a rare thing; I know next to nothing about the game - but I have a natural ability. However, it seems like a very silly game to me and not very fun. Hubs bought me clubs; a nice woman that I feel I might really like, asked me to join their Tuesday group... and skill is not a prerequisite; the joke is they play 2 holes then go to lunch. This woman also likes to read a lot and she's a down to earth mid-westerner... like me. (OK - maybe I'm not so down to earth).

I keep putting her off. Twigs jumps up with old "shame" patterns... and denies me the opportunity to feel comfortable, confident enough that the invitation is genuine and might actually be fun, if I just try it. The clubs are still wrapped. I wouldn't know what to wear - and that kinda matters; I wouldn't have clue what to talk about.

There are a few high-school type cliques; some "mean girls" here too (and they're all 50+). I've already had one run-in with one and stood my ground with her without being aggressive or hostile back. It was a curiosity to me, more than anything else. But then I realized another old pattern of mine was showing up. Avoiding talking to the women, because I feel I have more in common - common interests - with the men. I tried to explain this to someone at dinner and I'm sure it all came weird and I even put-down hubs in the process. I keep running into the whole patriarchal - southern - mentality. Where I'm supposed to simply be pretty and nice and domestic... fussing over a broken nail. Learn how to fold napkins... Martha Stewart, I'm not. I spent my working life in non-traditional jobs for women... competing with men. I know their language and they usually don't play "girl-games" which I can't stand.

So, I guess I just had had enough (and I wasn't feeling well that night anyway). When it was clear that I was being considered just as arm-jewelry for hubs and a realtor was encouraging him to look at property it just fell out of my mouth: But I still sign the checks. Hubs took that as a personal slight, even after I explained to him that I'm sick & tired of people not hearing that I am the one making decisions, running a company, and bringing in the bacon. In this state, in all legal transactions... I am always, without fail, considered "spouse" and even to the IRS, I am not the taxpayer -- hubs is. In other words, publicly and socially, I'm persona non grata. And this pushes a lot of Twig's buttons... and she is definitely not delicate in her choice of words!!

And it's precisely because of that - my odd knack of dropping socially inappropriate comments in the cosmic moment of dead silence - that I am being approached a lot more often and more openly... genuinely... by some of the women. I guess I'm saying what they all are thinking or something. So... me... I'm horribly embarrassed... but they're chuckling; all is well. They know where I'm coming from, in the vernacular of the 60s.

This is a long example, but I don't know how else to explain myself here. What I have right now, is the opportunity to undo that old shame pattern of being isolated in the misery of FOO. Using what I know from work relationships in my personal life. Finding a way for Twigs' voice to be mine... but perhaps tweaked some for "political correctness" -- to "just be me" like we were talking about on another thread. To lose the absurd self-denial of rejecting out of hand any and all invitations to spend time with other people based on nothing more than shame-feeling-echoes, stereotype projections (inner/outer), and pre-judging. I don't like this aspect of myself - I know where it comes from and can trace it all back to my mom relationship (my dad was happier as a social person) - and I try to talk about things we discuss in detail here on the board, only in general terms... and only when someone else brings it up. I am fortunate that I like the "feral cat" analogy... I've had several different "lives" and they were all quite different... so it gives me easy "material" to share about myself without getting "too personal".

I mean, even to write this by way of explanation, seems to be "too much; too personal" - about me and not objective enough. Hopefully something in this will give you some idea of what I'm trying to say; what I mean.

[Hopalong]

I love stories about feminist awakening. Women yearn to hear the obvious spoken, and that thirst is reflected in their interest in you after you spoke truth to power. (Simple truth, and the power figure was the realtor. It's still speaking truth to power.)

A friend of mine, retired early with a golden parachute, cracked the glass ceiling at Compaq back in the day.
She is beautiful, feminine, dimpled, lovely. She has a dazzling smile. In her office she had a framed print of Rene Magritte's Golconda.

It said everything. A few men she worked with would object to it or ask aggressively why she had that on her wall...she would smile and just say, "It speaks for itself."

That was pretty gutsy.

Hops

[sKePTiKal]

Well... I don't see this as some "heroic" quest so much as one of my main, fundamental issues Hops. I couldn't be who I am without the social change that happened because of feminism... but there are some deep, tiger-filled pits one can fall into because of it. Honest mistakes.

I still "want my mommy" - I even dreamed of that yearning this morning; I want to be acceptable, interesting, and accepted by women... on my own terms. Without feeling pressured to conform to something that is wrong for me; doesn't fit me. I took in the "lesson" of my grandma - covered in apron and flour and giving love - even through cooking. Sometimes I can do this; most of the time it feels limiting and confining and boring to me... for grandma, cooking, the "gentle arts", flowers, raising kids and healing were her whole world. Not big enough for me. I've always felt shame because it wasn't satisfying enough for me. I respect this world; it's what I yearn for right?

I have whatever that physical-orientation gene is that guys have that compels them to climb monkey bars, play football, run. My brain tends to work that way too. Someone told me one time (and it was a compliment) that I think more like a man would... than some men do. So, I've always had this need to "prove myself" capable with guys. I think at some point, I connected with the greek hunter-goddess idea -- Artemis, isn't it? Amazon, warrior-queen... any time I'm challenged I feel myself just a bit more "alive", you know? Ayla in the clan of the cave bear books...

and yet, I still want my mommy... still fear that too; because it was precisely my need for mothering that brought a lot of grief, abuse, victimhood... and learned helplessness down on me from Nmom. It was a TRAP for me... and I had to sacrifice an important part of myself to get out of the trap.

So, in relationships for me, those two things (based on parental relationships) are playing out... looking for resolution. In some ways - hubs & I are in complete role-reversal. He's more comfortable in domestic spendor than I am (though he doesn't engage in any of the work, ahem!). He's maintaining the 'social calendar'... he's suggested and invested ideas and solutions for interior design in the house that solved some of the dilemmas that I got "stuck" on... I like wheeling & dealing at the executive level... the calculated risks... putting my particular (more feminine) spin on management and power. He drives me mad, while I'm working on something... standing around waiting for me to tell him what to do or do it with him -- of course, I'm doing nothing then except giving him moral support and acknowledging his effort. I'm still trying to teach him how effective "divide and conquer" is, for getting a list of chores done.

But of course, hubs is of an age and Southern culture... that socially, he falls right into the "good old boy" roles... and since his ego's stoked about our bank balance (which to me... is just stuff I'm saving for the kids later) it all comes off as the typical patriarchal, patronizing, egoistic male challenge... and sigh... that engages the old Twigs in proving I can take him... take him down... in 5 words or less. And not just hubs, either. I think I have a Dorothy Parker gene, too.

Hubs and I spend all our time together; like we live in a little bubble. When he's all excited and bubbling over with enthusiasm about something he "steamrolls". What I mean is, that it doesn't matter if I'm interested in what he's talking about at all... or if I was already mentally engaged in something else - I need to drop everything and pay attention to him. What I want in that moment doesn't matter. The times I've cut him off, stopped the steamroller in it's tracks... he takes that a personal slight. He inundates visitors and new people around us, the same way. Since I'm already trained to simply allow this it takes a conscious effort on my part to decide when/what it is... if I'm going to participate in this. I am still trying to teach him, that it's not fair for him to always, in all circumstances to do this with me - or other people.

This is all babbling about stuff I've been noticing about boundaries... and what I call "recognition" of the other; technically I guess we use the terms mirroring and marking. The times I get passionate about something, hubs tends to shut me down (which I guess I should expect, huh?) asking me to "throttle back"... and in the back of my mind, and sometimes these days, more openly... I'm asking:

so when it is MY TURN?

But the other thing I've noticed is... one can't have a well-mapped out, totally analyzed "plan" to interact with other people. Just doesn't work. It's not "natural" and it doesn't feel good, either. It's more like one has to learn the principles then apply them "in the moment" - winging it. And accept the fact, that sometimes when one is "winging it" - one is going to get it wrong. It's just a fact of life. Apology works most of the time, when I make a mistake (sometimes an explanation is also required)... it's like taking a time-out on the field of personal interaction; referee makes a "ruling", then it's OK to continue the game.

Of course, with an Nmom... one couldn't make a mistake without disproportionate "punishment" and apologies were useless. Nmom never apologized to us, either... so all that was left was the power-struggle... and as kids, we never won those. Not a good environment for feeling connection, belonging, accepted is it? But it's really not like that "out there" - with other people - all the time. And the risks I've taken to make myself open to it... I think are worth it. Yep, there been plenty of "frogs" instead of "princes"... or nasty, evil witches... that I've run into. But the nice folks have more than tipped the balance toward the good. And out in the "real world" - I find my immunity to the not-so-nice people has increased quite a bit, since I've processed just how bad my mom-relationship was. Nothing else will ever be quite as painful as that, you know? As a consequence, my confidence has increased - a little. I still feel a bit of a freak because I don't quite fit the stereotypes in my head of what I'm "supposed" to be... but you know what? I don't think anyone else really those kinds of images, either.

YOUR turn, Ales... is this kinda what you were looking for?

[Ales2]

I find my immunity to the not-so-nice people has increased quite a bit, since I've processed just how bad my mom-relationship was. Nothing else will ever be quite as painful as that, you know? As a consequence, my confidence has increased - a little. I still feel a bit of a freak because I don't quite fit the stereotypes in my head of what I'm "supposed" to be... but you know what? I don't think anyone else really those kinds of images, either.

Oh yes, I can relate to the above very well, along with most of what you said about isolation, shame, making friends and boundaries as well, along with everything you said about the abuse, victimhood and having to give up yourself to make the abuse go away.

Things have been unraveling in my own life and I'm writing down answers to inevitable questions as they come up. I think my NMom will be contacting me again, I've been almost total NC for two years in May now. I was just noticing what an accomplishment it is and how draining it has been in the last two years. I've gained about 23 pounds and have alot of trouble sleeping.  Anyway, back to the answers. They are changing and thats good, its showing me that I am making progress. I can say now that I dont blame her anymore for my problems, I just should have been more assertive about declaring my own autonomy much sooner. I can think back to 1992, where I was sure that she was abusive, but somehow had to deal with post college stuff first and I did, but took another 16 years for me to see where that thread was leading. Anyway, so I am here now, with more answers I hope to put to good use in my life.

Thanks for your posts, they are very helpful. 

PS- I think silently going NC without an argument, an ultimatum or indication was one of the most liberating and powerful things I have ever done.  One day, after she showed at my apartment trying to bully me, I was completely and totally done with her. She has absolutely no chance of reconciliaton with me and sad to say, sounds cruel, but if she spends the rest of her days figuring out where she did wrong, only then have I done the right thing.

[sKePTiKal]

but if she spends the rest of her days figuring out where she did wrong, only then have I done the right thing.

I wouldn't count on her investing that kind of time, hon. You've done the right thing - for YOU - and that's all that matters.

After hacking up that hairball of explanation out over the past couple days, I'm kinda feeling better. It was like a splinter that was too small to remove or something... irritating, but nothing to do but wait for it to come out.

Ya know, I'm beginning to think that us daughters of "failed moms" need to give ourselves permission to stop feeling guilty about not maintaining a loving, close relationship that was prevented or sabotaged by mom in the first place; sure wasn't our fault, was it? We tried, to the point of screwing ourselves. We need to give ourselves further explicit permission to live full, rich lives if that's what we really want, too. We'll figure the logistics out.

After all, I moved away from my mom in 1980. That was 32 years ago. The only reason it's taken so long for me, is that I doubted myself... I didn't trust my own survival instinct... because it felt "wrong". It wasn't. I guess it took 32 years to convince myself.

[Hopalong]

Ironically, and painful as it is to admit, I sometimes recognize that as she is now,
it has probably saved my sanity (or helped me begin to regain it) and health (or
given me some time to start to rebuild it) that my D feels mostly estranged
and is in LC with me.

I hope that changes, because mother love even in we flawed and f*d up mothers,
goes pretty deep.

Found myself watching YouTubes last night of reunions between children or mothers
who had lost each other for years. Some were adoption reunions, some not. But
the joy, the utter joy, the mothers showed...even those mothers who were so
obviously messed up and wracked by their failures...when they put their arms
around their formerly "lost" children -- whether it was 10 years or 30...was pure.

Hops