Author Topic: Nar communication style  (Read 25207 times)

Meh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2739
Nar communication style
« on: April 10, 2012, 10:38:32 PM »
Is there a Nar communication style?

Mainly, here to vent.

My mother will ask me the same questions over and over and over again about very concrete things in the world that I have no power over so no matter how many times she asks me the information, its the same answer...but it doesn't stop her from saying it. She asks me questions and apparently she has no intention of listening to the answer. It makes me feel like she is trying to drive me insane. It's practically GIBBERISH. It makes it virtually impossible to really converse.


To me it feels sort of sabotaging that she chooses to speak to me in a way that is very difficult to respond to even though she is capable of other modes of speech.

Sometimes the answer is why ask why?
« Last Edit: April 10, 2012, 10:42:05 PM by Starlight »

BonesMS

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8060
Re: Nar communication style
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2012, 06:51:47 AM »
Is there a Nar communication style?

Mainly, here to vent.

My mother will ask me the same questions over and over and over again about very concrete things in the world that I have no power over so no matter how many times she asks me the information, its the same answer...but it doesn't stop her from saying it. She asks me questions and apparently she has no intention of listening to the answer. It makes me feel like she is trying to drive me insane. It's practically GIBBERISH. It makes it virtually impossible to really converse.


To me it feels sort of sabotaging that she chooses to speak to me in a way that is very difficult to respond to even though she is capable of other modes of speech.

Sometimes the answer is why ask why?

Hi, Starlight.

Yes, I think there is.  Another example that I've encountered is when an N asked me, repeatedly, to do something SHE wanted.  I had already told her NO the first time, the second time, etc. and yet, she would continue REPEATING the identical question until I would finally lose my patience!  What part of the word "NO" does she NOT understand?!?!?!?   :? :P  I couldn't help but wonder if the main reason she kept doing that was because she was hoping that my "NO" would MAGICALLY change into a "YES" for HER convenience!!  It's AGGRAVATING when they REFUSE to respect what you have just said!

Bones
Back Off Bug-A-Loo!

sKePTiKal

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5440
Re: Nar communication style
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2012, 07:35:17 AM »
Quote
Is there a Nar communication style?

Not knowing your mom... but having known a few Ns... my way of thinking of this, is that "communication" requires mutual, sequential talking & HEARING (not just pretending to listen - but really caring). And an Ns direct experience of reality only has room for, only includes, him or herself. Not other people... no matter who the other people biologically or relationally ARE. They go through the motions of pretending to converse.

It can be maddening. When it's a parent (or a child) - it can be terribly painful. The "trick" of the whole false interaction is that for whatever sick reason they have and the variety of ways they've discovered to play their trick... it amounts to the fact that they are sooooooo alone in their delusional world that they hardly even experience normal emotions... therefore, they interact with other people... and exhibit all these bizarre behaviors to provoke those feelings we all know so well... and they absolutely are trying to FEEL, themselves through stimulating that emotion. So when you feel targeted, picked on, purposely ignored after giving in to pleading for a meeting or conversation... they are getting what they want - or think they want. They're generating those familiar feelings of anger, frustration, invisibility and even sometimes despair so they can figure out what the feelings are... and sorta feel, by remote control. (I can't remember the word for that right now).

They don't even know they're doing this. Totally unaware. Even when your conversation is like a broken record: when the N repeats exactly the same phrases, words, and thoughts and you can spew forth the conversation verbatim before the words come out of their mouth... even if you do that to them... they might agree with you - but still have no consciousness that they've been saying exactly the same thing for years. This is their illness. And we absolutely can not, aren't capable of fixing them or getting through to them. (This has been true in my experience with Nmom, two different kind of N-ex husbands, and an Nboss or two.) If anything, I think we put ourselves in jeopardy and keep ourselves "stuck"... even trying to understand them.

So, I guess my answer is YES - there is a Nar communication style - but I still hesitate to call it communication.

But, vent away! My attempt to explain this is only my theory and one size doesn't necessarily fit all. And sometimes I find the only way I can get past the insanity is to vent. Lately, I've had plenty to vent about because it seems as though there's a pandemic of insanity to deal with, if I allow myself to read newspapers, magazines and watch TV.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

SilverLining

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 370
Re: Nar communication style
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2012, 11:50:36 AM »
Is there a Nar communication style?


Hi Star.  I definitely think there is, and it's something I've thought about quite a bit.   As Phoenix suggests, CO-mmunication is not a good word for the process.  It's more a one sided vampiric event with the N baiting an-other into providing them with attention and supply.   The N knows the formalities of interaction but isn't able/willing to follow through with the substance.

An example from my FOO which seems similar to your experience:  My father with initiate a mo-nversation by asking a couple of inane questions which he's asked a dozen times before.  His attention span for the reply is a few milliseconds before the topic is flipped back to himself.  So nothing about me ever registers.  I am a perpetual stranger to him, but am expected to treat him as an intimate.  So the relationship becomes totally one sided.  
 
One of my ways of dealing with it is to keep them at arms length.  As long as I don't expect them to function as more than strangers,  I'm not going to be disappointed.  I can seek more fulfilling interactions elsewhere.  




« Last Edit: April 11, 2012, 11:54:52 AM by SilverLining »

Meh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2739
Re: Nar communication style
« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2012, 01:58:58 AM »
Something totally different that I've been thinking about the last couple of days is about personality types according to the Myers/Briggs model. Recently took the Myers Briggs personality testing and found out that according to this. (I'm not sure if I really answered honestly or not because I feel like I'm answering the personality test from a place of anger! But it came out that I have an INTJ personality type and females in this group are the rarest of all the groups. The INTJ are explained as being not very emotionally expressive and even disdainful of small talk.

It's all to in-depth to me since I'm not a psychology student. The question comes to my mind though if certain personality types are more likely to become Narcissistic or to develop certain types of personality disorder. Or maybe it doesnt matter. I'm sort of thinking maybe Introvertedness is a result of having Narcissistic parents but really it probably isn't because there are extroverts here on this board I think. Yet maybe HSP extroverts? Nah maybe not.

I have this deep down sad question that always says "who could I have been or who would I have been had things been different"


Also I wonder about the idea of the people who are (HSP) highly sensitive people. How Narcissism impacts these people compared to not HSP's. I really don't have the energy to properly study it. Seems to me like people who are effected by Narcissism come across as being highly sensitive (HSP).

And another comment. In the past I've had therapists/doctors say to me that anxiety and depression often go together as if they are both just part of a brain chemical imbalance. For the first time though I think I noticed a very clear sensation of waking up with anxiety (stress) because it hurts my stomach right as I wake up and then an ensuing type of response that is like depression but I don't call it that word.

Maybe it's simply too much stress = a type of physical/emotional paralysis of sorts. Sort of an emotional threshold point that is too much for the nervous system. Basically people who are "depressed" are sick just like having a flu. I don't think its caused by a chemistry defect thing in the brain. I think it is simple stress/distress. Isn't this very simple and how did this get sort of turned around into a congenital defect of the brain chemistry.

« Last Edit: April 12, 2012, 04:02:37 AM by Starlight »

Meh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2739
Re: Nar communication style
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2012, 02:15:15 AM »
Is there a Nar communication style?

As long as I don't expect them to function as more than strangers,  I'm not going to be disappointed.  I can seek more fulfilling interactions elsewhere.  

:(

It's sad to me. I still feel like a little kid that can't fully accept this.
You're right communication is some kind of convergence. It has the co- in there. Co-operate, co-op, commune. Community.

I would say that is how it is, the inane questions, like maybe 5 words worth. Maybe it's all they can remember from prior conversations due to the attention span problem. And yes I have at times said to my mother that she seems like she has ADD.

People who are good conversationalists IMO almost have this ability to create a psychic space that is spacious. Like the room actually feels like it contains more air particles or something, there is something expansive and dimensional. An open communication process compared to a closed communication habit.


« Last Edit: April 12, 2012, 03:06:10 AM by Starlight »

Meh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2739
Re: Nar communication style
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2012, 02:34:56 AM »
Quote
Is there a Nar communication style?
Lately, I've had plenty to vent about because it seems as though there's a pandemic of insanity to deal with, if I allow myself to read newspapers, magazines and watch TV.

 :lol:   Hum, yeah current events can make anybody want to pull their hair out. That also is a toe in, foot in, leg in kind of experience.
In the news sensational things blow over and then something else takes it's place again.


 


« Last Edit: April 12, 2012, 02:42:47 AM by Starlight »

Meh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2739
Narcissists in the afterlife
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2012, 04:15:44 AM »
This sounds sort of silly. Some people believe in the afterlife and divine, god, heaven, purpose, a reason for life etc, white light, near death experience type stuff where all their loved ones will "meet them on the other side to help them cross over". So are the Narcissists supposed to be there to help us cross over---- :o Will they meet us on the other side....
I don't really believe in these things, I tend to think it's childish thinking and that people are just animals like the rest of the mammals. I don't think there is an after life but I wonder for the people that really do believe these things did they never have a Narcissist in their life? To follow the idea through about the afterlife and reconnecting with "loved ones". Then what happens is when we get to heaven we never see the Nar person ever again?? I know it's silly but having a Nar parent probably contributes to my sense that there is no god. When I think of people who would meet me on the other side...I don't see my family....how could I feel so different about my family compared to other people. It's a different world view--even a different after-life view.

I know it's ridiculous and strange to think about. I just couldn't help but to write it out.

A guy that I had a class with years ago was the closest and only relative to go to his cousins hospital bed side after a car accident.The cousin passed away and the guy said that right when his cousin passed away he could see spirits in the room of people from the other side. I believe he did see this. I try to be open minded, I don't know if he was having a hallucination or if he did see spirits. I don't believe in an afterlife but I don't rule it out 100%. It makes me wonder though.People have these thoughts maybe as a comfort. Yet it wouldn't be a comfort for the nar people to be there or other relatives so does that cause my mind to be more realistic and just say feh....no heaven....no light....and logically then no meaning.

I'm sure hard core religious people would say that nar people are whole on the other side, they don't have a PD. that the PD only manifests in this material world. Tired goodnight.



« Last Edit: April 12, 2012, 04:29:33 AM by Starlight »

sKePTiKal

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5440
Re: Nar communication style
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2012, 08:22:35 AM »
Quote
Maybe it's simply too much stress = a type of physical/emotional paralysis of sorts. Sort of an emotional threshold point that is too much for the nervous system. Basically people who are "depressed" are sick just like having a flu. I don't think its caused by a chemistry defect thing in the brain. I think it is simple stress/distress. Isn't this very simple and how did this get sort of turned around into a congenital defect of the brain chemistry.


Interesting that you brought this up. I just read something last week, a series of studies I think, that seemed to "suggest" the same thing at the conclusion. Where it overlaps for me, is that even by restricting calories and being physically active... I seem to add more pounds than lose them. For awhile, I just said, OK I'm 55... this is just natural aging. EXCEPT - that I never had a tendency to gain weight. Sort of like one of those babies that are never chubby & roly-poly... I could stuff my face and never, ever gain an inch or a pound - not even through pregnancy. And I never worked out or was involved in organized sports any more than I was required to be.

I've been interested for awhile in the mind-body connection and experienced first-hand the benefits to my nervous system from tai chi. But I'd never had any interest in diets or their theories. Never applied to me. Once I started reading, I got frustrated pretty quickly - because there's a lot of contradictory ideas, folk myths, quasi-science and even nutritional docs and neuroscientists seemed to cancel every promising idea out. Well, being a long time reader of Prevention I picked up a few things to look at - and even there, I kept seeing different systems and it started me thinking that there are different sets of physical problems; like different metabolism or physical "types". So, I broke down and bought the book on the Hormone Diet -- along with another one on Chinese Medicine. I've using herbs, and learning how... all the way back to Twiggy's time frame... it was just always in my environment. The doctor who wrote the book, kinda confirmed my idea that we are different "types", physically - and it's linked to the effect of these hormones on the brain.

Lupita posted something yesterday about how serotonin and dopamine are linked to whether someone is a pessimist or optimist and there wasn't anything one could do to change this, because it was genetic. The effects of living with N in a primary caregiver is practically speaking, just as deep and intertwined in our cells and brains. But in both situations, there is some science and there are doctors with some experience - using herbs to tweak our hormonal levels. These hormonal levels DO affect the functioning of the brain - and in turn, that level of functioning affects the physical body. This self-perpetuating cycle of existence CAN BE caused by life-long stress: i.e., having to live with a primary caregiver who's PD or N or just plain mentally ill and mean.

Even here - a bunch of us know that if we're flooded with a big anxiety attack or overwhelming helplessness - sometimes, just going for a walk will help lift it. The walk, the sunshine (vitamin D) and fresh air is a positive antidote to temper those old emotion-patterns. Lupita likes to dance; she feels more alive when she's dancing - it's that same chemical stimulus - response at work. But we don't really BELIEVE it's that simple. We can't really convince ourselves; we don't know how it works. And the feelings only change temporarily - according to our perception. But over time, I think there are small gradual (imperceptible) progressions that can become more permanent.

I'm not sure I believe all this, anyway. But, I am trying some things to see what happens. I simply got serious about taking my multivitamin everyday - and added a supplement for thyroid support. Next up, Omega 3s... because according to this system and knowing my own history... I have some inflammation issues that stress my immune system. And then there are a few more - working from biggest problem to the slightest. The book helps one self-identify the issues and can be supported with blood tests, too. But the Docs' idea is that each of us will need a different amount of time to bring those hormones back into balance - you won't take these supplements forever - and the process is slow and gradual, and not everyone needs everything. She walks one through the "trial & error" of seeing what works for you... without putting yourself even further out of whack. And of course, there is an exercise/activity component.

So, star... once Western medicine decided that the mind/emotions and body were separate things... they "forgot" the basic understanding that our emotions can affect our body... and vice versa. I think like you - that lifelong stress isn't the same thing as a brain defect or PD. And I suspect - I'm still learning what works for me - that what we need is simply a gentle shove in the right direction to get those hormone levels back in balance. My weight is still bouncing around - lose 2.5 lbs one day, gain it all back the next - but what I've noticed is that emotionally I FEEL better. Didn't really expect that. I feel like I have more energy, I want to do things that are more active, etc.

I'm still playing around with this... it seemed way too simple; the old "here, take this pill and magically all will be well". I'm still skeptical about that. But if I can start being more physically active, without pooping out right after starting... well, that's another microstep to the ultimate goal. And I can live with a side effect that makes me feel emotionally a bit clearer, calmer, more balanced at the same time, too!

(Disclaimer: one could view this really cynically as just another form of placebo effect. Having a really cynical side to me... helps me kinda keep those expectations in check. She's been showing up a lot lately (ironically) even as I start to feel "better".)
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

SilverLining

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 370
Re: Narcissists in the afterlife
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2012, 07:11:51 PM »
This sounds sort of silly. Some people believe in the afterlife and divine, god, heaven, purpose, a reason for life etc, white light, near death experience type stuff where all their loved ones will "meet them on the other side to help them cross over". So are the Narcissists supposed to be there to help us cross over---- :o Will they meet us on the other side....
I don't really believe in these things, I tend to think it's childish thinking and that people are just animals like the rest of the mammals. I don't think there is an after life but I wonder for the people that really do believe these things did they never have a Narcissist in their life? To follow the idea through about the afterlife and reconnecting with "loved ones". Then what happens is when we get to heaven we never see the Nar person ever again?? I know it's silly but having a Nar parent probably contributes to my sense that there is no god. When I think of people who would meet me on the other side...I don't see my family....how could I feel so different about my family compared to other people. It's a different world view--even a different after-life view.

I know it's ridiculous and strange to think about. I just couldn't help but to write it out.



I don't think it's silly to think about at all.  Eternity with the relatives sure doesn't sound like "heaven" to me...   :?   This may be a benefit of the N family experience.  It gets us thinking about these issues instead of just accepting the institutional answers.  Personally I don't believe there is any spiritual weight behind the isolated nuclear family organization, unless for whatever reasons the individuals can make something more out of it.  Otherwise it's just "matter" and biology. 


sKePTiKal

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5440
Re: Nar communication style
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2012, 07:20:35 AM »
Hmmm. Afterlife. OK, since no one really knows for sure, I'm gonna decide that my "real, ideal, mom" will show up to claim me!!
Maybe I really was switched at birth, you know? My best friend was born the same week, same hospital as me... and maybe both our lives would've been different.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

KayZee

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 182
Re: Nar communication style
« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2012, 07:36:43 PM »
Quote
. it amounts to the fact that they are sooooooo alone in their delusional world that they hardly even experience normal emotions... therefore, they interact with other people... and exhibit all these bizarre behaviors to provoke those feelings we all know so well... and they absolutely are trying to FEEL, themselves through stimulating that emotion. So when you feel targeted, picked on, purposely ignored after giving in to pleading for a meeting or conversation... they are getting what they want - or think they want. They're generating those familiar feelings of anger, frustration, invisibility and even sometimes despair so they can figure out what the feelings are... and sorta feel, by remote control.

God, P.R. I can't thank you enough for the above.  How can something so sick be so comforting?  But I do find it oddly comforting.  I wonder. . . Maybe those of use who are continuously scapegoated, nit-picked, prodded, poked, harassed are actually some of the most emotionally intelligent (or at least the most human) in our FOOs?

I feel so wound-up, hopeless, angry and shamed after a recent visit to my NM's house.  The whole time I was there, NM would give exasperated sighs when I spoke or cut me off/position her body away when I tried to speak to her--all these passive aggressive cues.  Then finally--to my total dismay and feelings of failure--I exploded, at which point it felt like I was feeling/expressing the anger she had been trying to express herself. 

Anyway, what you said gives me hope.  I tend to feel really guilty whenever I feel/express strong emotions around my family, who themselves act like emotionless zombies.  They act like they feel nothing and walk around parroting everything my NM says.  It's Dawn of the Freaking Dead around there, like NM has sucked out everyone's soul.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2012, 07:38:47 PM by KayZee »

KayZee

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 182
Re: Nar communication style
« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2012, 07:51:16 PM »
Also on the subject of N-communication, I noticed anytime my NM talks about feelings she switches from first person to second person.  Like, talking about a teething baby or a sick toddler she'll say: "You just feel so bad for them." (This, instead of saying "I feel so bad for him/her").  It could be a figure of speech or it could be her poker 'tell.'  Almost like she's acknowledging that she can't feel the emotions herself, but she sort of knows what other people ("you") feel in similar situations.

Also, does the N in anyone else's life like to tell other people what they think or feel?  My NM does this all the time!  And it makes me crazy!  She's always, always wrong when she tries to tell me what I'm feeling.  I'm assuming that's because it's a projection of what she's thinking.  For instance, she's just told me: "You have a problem with me because you expect me to be a perfect, model person."  Seems to me that she's the one who thinks she's perfect/feels she's perfect/created some cold, false, bulletproof facade so other people will value her.

Maaan. . . I hate N-communication.  I always feel like I'm interrupting people who are talking to themselves.  Get the same sensation with my Dad and sister that I do with NM.  Like everyone just repeats the same sound bites all the time, tells the same grandiose stories.  It's so scripted/unspontaneous, I feel like there ought to be a laugh track and an on-air sign.


sKePTiKal

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5440
Re: Nar communication style
« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2012, 08:11:28 AM »
Quote
It's so scripted/unspontaneous, I feel like there ought to be a laugh track and an on-air sign.


And after the show is over, it feels like a huge waste of time, huh? No one to one, shared space of "being together"... no chance to be the one who is cared about, respected enough to be listened to, or even acknowledged... the "audience" is just another necessary prop to the script.

I do recognize my Nm in the use of the second person voice... and for sure, she STILL tries to tell me (and everyone else) what they do and SHOULD feel. Just like Twoapenny's confrontation with her mom... mine was related to this particular projection... sort of her feeling out what she was supposed to feel, when my Dad took a turn for the worse. Her direct words were: "I know you feel you should..." and I cut her off and screamed into the phone that she had absolutely NO IDEA how I felt, I wasn't going to tell her, and it's not possible for one person to know, see or otherwise "feel" another person's feelings.

Then I hung up and had to sit for a while, until I stopped shaking.

It's OK to walk out of plays and movies, when you know how it's going to end and you're really not into the production, at all.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

KayZee

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 182
Re: Nar communication style
« Reply #14 on: April 15, 2012, 08:41:17 PM »
Quote
It's OK to walk out of plays and movies, when you know how it's going to end and you're really not into the production, at all.

I love this.  And, yes, it's probably much healthier to walk out than it is to stand up and throw popcorn at the scream, all whilest shouting, "AAAGGGH!! These actors are so stilted!!! This plot is so shallow, cliche, cruel and predictable!!!"  (To my shame, horror and feelings of failure, this is sort of how I ended my last visit with FOO.)

It enrages me that your NM tried to tell you how you felt over your father's health.  As if the news alone wasn't painful enough to deal with without her interjecting.

That's what I hate about Ns--I always get the feeling that my NM kicks me hardest when I'm down, physically hurt or emotionally grieving--but what you've said helps me to have more compassion for them.  I guess what's painful or terrifying for us is painful and terrifying for them too because it draws their attention to the humanity they're missing.

Kay x