Author Topic: Bad Mothers in Nature?  (Read 2073 times)

KayZee

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Bad Mothers in Nature?
« on: April 14, 2012, 09:59:29 PM »
Hey everyone,
So I find myself wondering whether any of you have come across any reading about bad mothers in nature?  To date, I've only really found this one: http://jezebel.com/5502755/bad-mother-maternal-behavior--broken-brains

I guess I started thinking about it a month ago.  I went with one of my friends (she's an amazing knitter) to a local yarn shop.  They spun and dyed a lot of their own wool there, and the farmer/owner who was wearing her overalls apologized for the dark circles under her eyes and for smelling like barnyard.  She then started to explain that some of her sheep had gone into labor the night before, and two newborn lambs had already died.  She described how one sheep left her newborn alone, out in the cold, to freeze to death.  "She just wasn't a natural," the farmer said of that sheep mother.

I guess it got me thinking, are some human mothers just not 'naturals?'  Is it as simple as that?  It happens all the time in nature, yet, in civilized society I feel like the assumption that all mothers are naturally good still prevails.  Those who can even wrap their minds around mean or murderous mothers say they are 'against nature.'  But are they really? 

Also, for those out there with NMs. . . Which of these 'bad animal moms' (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/05/photogalleries/mothers-day-worst-animal-moms-pictures/) would your NM be?  I feel like mine would be a cross between the Panda who plays favorites and the Skink who destroys her young just so they won't suffer the same things that she went through.

Kay x

Twoapenny

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Re: Bad Mothers in Nature?
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2012, 03:34:58 AM »
Hi kay,

I think, absolutely, some people are just not cut out to be parents.  Making a baby is easy, nurturing one for a couple of decades so that you roll out a pretty decent human being is definitely not, for all sorts of reasons.

My mum's great with babies, she adores them.  They stay in one place, they don't answer back, they don't force their opinions on you and you have complete control over them.  In fact, I'll alter that - she loves anyone she has complete control over, it's that distinction between her and them that she can't handle and she therefore rejects anyone who isn't playing the right part in her show.  I think there are a lot of people out there who shouldn't have or have had kids.  Fortunately there are lots of lovely people who definitely should and I'm still waiting for the moment when I find I'm adopted and my real parents are actually really nice :)

sKePTiKal

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Re: Bad Mothers in Nature?
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2012, 09:28:22 AM »
Hi Kay... I've thought about this a lot, got a few theories. Wanna hear 'em? (It's ok, if you don't.)

Yes, I most definitely think that there are "bad mothers"... those who for what can be thousands of different, interconnected reasons - just don't have the empathy to care enough about their child to "mother" it in an appropriate way. Once you get to the level below functional mechanisms, the only thing really left is that lack of empathy. What kids don't know - and then grow up believing bad or incorrect things about themselves - is that it's really not personal; it's not some aspect of the child that causes the mother to be so disinterested or unpredictably neglectful, delusional, or mean. This is an absolutely critical piece of information that gets lost in the relationship's projection, reactions, etc. One is just too close to the situation to see it clearly, in it's entirety. AND, one's understanding is further clouded, fuzzed out, by the intensity of emotion (it's confusing and hurtful as hell): as a child, one's whole existence is DEPENDENT on those primary caregivers - it's built into OUR brains that the worst possible scenario will come true, if we piss off mom.... we'll suffer abandonment: which for a child is physical and emotional starvation, exposure to the elements and the inability to protect oneself from those who would harm us. [I  just had to explain this to my oldest D, in reference to her pathologically N Dad - she was in the familiar: what's wrong with me mode... blaming herself. Good thing she checked with mom; I just wish she'd done it before she sabotaged herself!!]

So, we can't "fix" the moms or dads... but we can surely "fix" ourselves and how we deal with them.

The other theory I have, and you touched on this, I think - is that sometimes, the inherent personalities of moms (and mostly) daughters are simply incompatible. Maybe Mom's personality developed to be cold & unemotional; sort of ruthlessly unempathetic and Vulcan-rational. While D is one of those Highly Sensitive personalities... anything and everything provokes an emotional response. One personality isn't better than the other, or more human than the other - they're just different - but never the twain shall meet, ya know? In this sort of relationship, a lot of interactions are going to "go wrong" too. By way of example, I read something recently about parental-counseling philosophies for Type A parents, who have Type B children. With motivation and desire - and some education/training on the parts of parent & child, these parent-child relationships can improve to allow for the differences in personalities.

And then, lastly - there's the issue of the child separating from the dependency on the parent (or vice versa, with Nparents). I'll admit I have what some people might consider a really radical philosophy about this.... because I was in my late 40s when I finally understood my own separation-process, but having raised two daughters I was also immersed in trying to "do it differently - better". I didn't understand the "why" at the time... but I insisted that my girls be "who they are" - and not simply pattern themselves on me (or anyone else, for that matter). I pushed them to be independent and self-sufficient in their skillsets and abilities... to be responsible for themselves and not look to other people for "approval"; to think it through and decide for themselves. They reached different plateaus of competency at different times and ages. They are very, very different kinds of people. We joke all the time about how each of them, has a little of mom - different things - in them. Not always good, positive traits, mind you! And this process was full of pitfalls, mistakes (sometimes repeated ones), and lots of "trying again"... but so far, so good. I've noticed a significant decrease in their need to consult mom about their own lives - yet we still communicate on that level, because they know I'll listen, console, support, brainstorm ideas... when they need me to do that with them. So we still have a strong connection - but they're both extremely competent in their own ways - and so, they're pretty autonomous people.

I'm still working on persuading myself that it's OK for me to have this, too. Regardless of what my Nmom thinks and tries to have with me.
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KayZee

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Re: Bad Mothers in Nature?
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2012, 09:17:44 PM »
P.R.,
Everything you've said about your daughters is so moving and inspiring to me.  I guess you could say that's the kind of relationship I aspire to have with my own really young kids.  So far, I've been trying really hard not to "do the opposite" or "do the same" or relate my relationship with my babies to my relationship with my mother at all.  So far, at least, our relationship is it's own thing.  They're their own people.  And  my daughter seems to be going the way of your girls.  Even at three, she relishes her independence and has such certainty of thought and feeling.  Maybe this will change as she grows or goes through different stages.  And I'm sure I will make/have made mistakes with them.  I just want to be emotionally healthy enough not to pass my old childhood baggage on to them.  I want them to always know they have my empathy.   I want them to grow up believing that they are worthy of love and good treatment.  I don't want to mess them up to the point where they sabotage their efforts or think they aren't deserving of loving/respectful friends and life partners.

It is hard not to mother without a model though, isn't it?  It's helped me to have a warm, loving, emotionally open aunt in my life.  And it's a relief to have a very compassionate mother-in-law who has a way of making everyone feel acknowledged and heard, even when she doesn't agree with them.  Without those few touchstones, I think I'd just be totally lost to the way functional families function.  Sometimes I still am.

Can I find that reading about Type A parents who have Type B children on the Internet?  Is there anything there about the same situation in reverse?  I'm doing a little bit of work in a community with lots of parents who are really Type B.  The kids complain that no one has ever told them 'no,' or told them what to do, or laid out expectations for them.

Sometimes I think NM and I are just totally uncompatible.  The child in me who believes there's something wrong with me (that's the reason why I'll never have NM's empathy, interest or love) thinks maybe I'm the highly sensitive daughter you mentioned.  After all, when NM was at her cruelest she always said, "You're so over sensitive!"  But then, no one but NM has ever said that.  Most people tell me I need to open up more.

Twoapenny, I hear you here:
Quote
I think, absolutely, some people are just not cut out to be parents.  Making a baby is easy, nurturing one for a couple of decades so that you roll out a pretty decent human being is definitely not, for all sorts of reasons.
 

My NM loves babies too or anyone who is dependent enough to be a captive audience.  Once kids are better able to express themselves and their wills her interest in them definitely fades.  NM mostly relates to children as though they were dolls.  Her favorite part is dressing them up and showing them off, after that they go right back on the shelf, so to speak.




Meh

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Re: Bad Mothers in Nature?
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2012, 07:00:52 PM »
Animals don't have birth control, humans do, and there is adoption, even garbage cans.

Maybe nar people have/keep children because they are lonely?
« Last Edit: April 16, 2012, 07:16:09 PM by Starlight »

BonesMS

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Re: Bad Mothers in Nature?
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2012, 05:29:32 AM »
Animals don't have birth control, humans do, and there is adoption, even garbage cans.

Maybe nar people have/keep children because they are lonely?

Nar-people have/keep children to "look good" to others and USE these innocent human beings as EXTENSIONS of themselves as well as slaves.  Remember Mommie Dearest?  She didn't care about the kids she took in, she only cared about her IMAGE.  The NQueenB*tch that gave birth to the NGCB and me?  We were expected/DEMANDED to be mindless/brainless extensions, making HER look good and to NEVER have opinions or lives SEPARATE from HER!

Bones
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sKePTiKal

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Re: Bad Mothers in Nature?
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2012, 08:00:22 AM »
Quote
Maybe nar people have/keep children because they are lonely?


This is laser-light perceptive! They're lonely because they don't "play well with others" -- don't have relationship skills, but more than that -- they kinda "objectify" other people (other people as objects that aren't as real/human as themselves). And since they've convinced themselves of their own fabulousness and perfection... they "relate" to kids because the kids are "reflections" of themselves - more me, me, me - and they miss the simple fact that the kid isn't them and is a real, separate, different person in his/her own right.

This is a primary way that fits how I define Ns as "delusional". But that definition can be stretched to PD, mental illness, plain old insanity or crazy...

and the result is the kid experiences really bad parenting, so that's why my brain made the leap to thinking about "growing up feral" or being an orphan with living parents for those of us who survived those kinds of parents.

Nparents really, really don't want to let their kids "go" - or mature - or separate and never, ever recognize that they are adults.... because it would be like cutting off one of their own limbs: they see this as losing a part of themselves. (that idea just now came into my head... it does kinda explain their pathetic "control" issues...)
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.