Oversensitive

[Twoapenny]

Hi all,

I'm sorry, because I'm asking another question before I've responded to my previous posts, but my head is kind of jumping around at the minute so I hope you can all bear with me?

I'm finding myself questioning friendships and wondering if I'm being over sensitive?

A lot of my friends - good friends, close friends, friends who I've seen and spent time with regularly over long periods - move on to different things and it feels like they forget about me.  One went from daily phone calls to not returning calls after she moved house.  It left me feeling that she just needed company and I was available at that time.  Another friend gave me lots of help during a difficult time in my life, but now when I call her she seems impatient to end the conversation and do something else.  The most common is single friends who I see a lot of when they're single and who then disappear when they get a new boyfriend.  A lot of my friends are available when their husbands are out, but not when they are at home - this always really reminds me of my mum so I struggle with it.

I don't feel I have many friends that I have completely equal relationships with - in fact I can only think of two that are like that.

I know that life changes, it's fluid, people's circumstances change, the time they have available changes, and so on.  I know that, at the moment, I am analysing everything in minute detail - I get like this sometimes and it will pass.  But I also feel a sense of not knowing whether I am somehow choosing people who 'leave' me at some point or whether I am over thinking this?

With the friends I feel equal with, we ring each other about the same number of times, we meet up at each other's convenience (by that I mean we take turns so that it's not one person doing all the driving, for example).  We call each other when we need to talk but it's not the only time we call, we also ring just to catch up and see how things are going.  But with most of my other friends it feels unequal, like I have to do a lot more of the work and I only get to see them if I visit them.  Quite a few don't return my calls for a very long time after I leave a message.  Do I stop calling these people or accept that everyone changes and not take it personally?  It's getting me down at the minute.  People seem to think I'm very popular but I feel so lonely so much of the time.

And dating!  I've tried several dating websites, re-written my profile several times, used 'neutral' pictures - ie, just me looking normal, not with my boobs out as so many do!  I've had lots of requests for casual sex (to which I've said no thank you), very boring emails from men banging on about how awful women are, one guy who appeared to be sending me his life story a chapter at a time, a couple who've reacted quite angrily to my saying I didn't want to meet up after swapping a few emails (in two cases I felt I didn't really know them, their emails seemed very much like something they had to do in order to get a date rather than actually exchanging much information?  So I didn't feel comfortable and said so.  Another got very cross because I didn't feel I had time to ring him and asked him if he'd mind leaving things for now until my situation had calmed down a bit.  He seemed very angry about that.  One weekend I sent twenty two emails to guys of my age group, friendly chatting, just to practise getting used to these sorts of things again.  No-one replied.

So I'm wondering.  Is all of this normal?  Is this what it is like for everybody?  Am I doing it wrong?  Can I change the way I am with people, the way I approach people?  Am I too demanding, do I expect too much?  I would really welcome your thoughts on this one - and I will reply to the other posts as soon as my head has settled down a little.  Thank you.

[BonesMS]

((((((((((((((((((((TwoaPenny)))))))))))))))))))))

From my perspective, you are NOT doing anything wrong.  I struggle with the same issues and often wonder if it's because of my Asperger's, or not learning how to socialize normally given that I grew up with a Narcissistic Rage-aholic who forced the NGCB and me to orbit ONLY around HER, or both.

Bones

[Twoapenny]

Thanks, Bonesie!  In some ways I would prefer to be doing something wrong - then I could change what I do and fix it!  I had a conversation with a friend and I think the thing I really struggle with is I don't have any friends I can actually talk about any of this stuff to.  This particular friend is another who I've spent a lot of time with over the years and we've done a lot together, but when we talk on the phone she talks about herself for most of the conversation.  She doesn't ask anything about me and I find myself having to sort of jump in with a bit about what we've been doing otherwise I don't get to say anything!  I'm just feeling that thing were if a lot of people around you do the same thing, is it you that has the problem?  I suppose it's that that's going around in my head at the minute.

Something else that's just happened is that I had an email from someone who was involved in the on-line discussion that triggered this whole situation off for me again (it was a while ago now).  The email was very nice and sweet and she was saying she felt bad about what had gone on and she hoped I was okay.  My initial response was to write and thank her and try to explain some of what it is like for me as an adult survivor of childhood abuse.  But I just found that her email triggered a whole lot of stuff again.  I had to work really hard to get that particular forum out of my head and I had managed it, but now it's all whizzing around again.  So I didn't reply and I just deleted it.

That is not what I normally do.  Usually I would at least be polite and respond to put her mind at rest.  I don't know if me deleting it was a good or a bad sign.

Bonesie, it's interesting that you mention your Asperger's as well.  It's a condition that requires support and understanding from others, so growing up with that and your home life the way it was must have been even harder.  Do you feel people let you down or is it being sociable in itself that is difficult to do?  ((((((((((((Bonesie))))))))))))))

[Meh]

It might be a combo of people being erratic and busy and having their own relating styles and quirks and also your relating habits.

Some people do have friends they have known since kids that become their brides maids...and so on. The life long brides maid pals.

I like movies where there are groups of women friends sitting around.
There are scenes in the "Jane Austen Book Club"
Also a scene in the movie called "It's complicated."

Yeah I never really had that.

[Twoapenny]

Hi Salsa,

Yes, I'm a bit like that too.  I'm living back where I grew up now and came back about four years ago.  Lots of my friends from back then - school days - still live here, have never lived or worked anywhere else, still see the same people, still with the same guys.

I do get that some friendships just fall by the way side - sometimes I think they're just meant to be for a certain time and they naturally fall away.  Also, I know if I kept in touch with every single person I've ever been friends with I'd be spending all day on the phone and writing letters - time plays a bit part and things do change with kids, jobs, health problems and so on.  I suppose the ones that bother me at the minute are the ones that don't feel like they've naturally drifted away - there's been a dramatic change, or perhaps I am just noticing things I didn't before?

Hope you are doing okay.  It's funny how I can talk to on-line friends so much more easily than I can 'real' people?

[Meh]

You could ask them why. I know it's sort of weird and they might not tell you the truth but it's an option. Some people don't like directness though and that is sort of direct.

Hum, you are wondering if it's something that you are doing that you are not aware of. So a dramatic difference in these people that you have known for a while. Well, I don't know the reason but I could see how it would be concerning.

I'm okay, sort of wondering to myself why I'm still on the Nar-board,...but I tell myself it's okay and that it takes a long time to figure out. Probably I will be focused on my/and family dysfunction for the rest of my life. Because it's more of like one of those 12 step programs I think-- where the people have to continue to work the process. Except that I'm not working a process I just know I have to do something though. I really wish there was a 12 step program for us. Or at least for me, I should just speak for myself.

Well, I've got my earplugs stuffed into my ears so I don't hear my neighbor's get jiggy with it music 24-7. Night.

[SilverLining]

Hi Two. 

The experiences you describe are very similar to how things are in my reality.   Maybe it isn't a matter of our OVER sensitivity but just having some real sensitivity to things outside ourselves, and the typical craziness of human social life. 

Often it seems to me nearly everybody I know is certifiably nuts.   I have people call me, ask a couple of formal questions, then launch into a half hour monologue about themselves.   What they are really doing is talking to themselves, with me as sort of a foil.  I come to wonder, why is this such a fulfilling activity for these people?  Why do people get such a kick out of hearing themselves talk?  And there is no reciprocity.  They can't listen to anybody else for more than a moment.

Of course the prototype for this experience was the FOO.  This is the way both of my parents relate to people.  They have different styles but the core self absorption is the same with both. 

So here's where the sensitivity comes in.  I've realized I don't get any enjoyment from yapping at somebody else who isn't listening to me.  And I know when people tune out.  So when they quit listening I shut up, which is usually not long into a conversation.   I'm sensitive to them, but there is little reciprocity, and this sets me up for an unending series of one sided interactions.

So is the problem in us or in them?  Maybe we have to be "egotistical" enough to realize the problem isn't our oversensitivity, but a general lack of receptivity in others.     

I never cease to be amazed by how people behave in this society.  I see people driving, walking, even riding bicycles while staring into a little screen, totally entranced by their own little private reality.  Seems to me the world is getting weirder and more narcissistic every day.   

[gratitude28]

Two - totally normal. I have VERY few dear friends. I am in a new place again and the kids kind of laugh at how lame I am - asode from one girlfriend I lunch with, I really just see other moms at sports and that's it. I don't talk to anyone on the phone. I have a few friends in Florida and one in Virginia and I hope to retire near them. I am getting to a point where I need fewer people in my life. However, I  also find I am lonely sometimes. As for dating... I've been out of the marke for years. But I would probably try to meet guys in a library, at the gym, at church or some other such venue. A smile is the best way to meet someone. Still, I would bet that out of 100 guys I see a day, there would only be... maybe... one that would interest me enough to meet outside of the daily routine. So I would not hurry relationships, since I think the real and good ones (love and friendship types) come when you least are looking for them. And cherish the ones that are real, because they are so rare.
xxoo Beth

[sKePTiKal]

You asked why it was so easy to be open, engage in a lot of back & forth, give & take online versus in real life....

One thing I've discovered about myself in the last few years, is that I express myself better through writing than by talking to people. HOW ODD, I thought at the time. That must make me really messed up! What I finally understood about this, is that (and I can trace this back to living with insanity in the FOO)...

is that interaction at that level happens very quickly. Emotions can be involved, too. Depending on the situation - several people compared to a large party - I simply don't have a lot of practice processing that much interperson "information" and since I'm inclined to avoid playfulness - and that whole form of self-expression... often, I take words at their face value, too seriously, misunderstand and am easily confused or susceptible to the social "faux pas".

Because of the FOO-experience, I am looking for authenticity; genuine emotion; the masks versus the real people... the content vs. the motivation... and gee! How many times did Dr. Jekyll turn into Mr. Hyde? How many times was I given contradictory rules, within in which to be safe? How many times did I experience that being simply wasn't safe or accepted??  That's TMI - too much information. Instantly - my own predilection to experience the world this way - creates my own awkwardness. I feel out of step... too fast... too slow... it's exhausting. And since therapy, the healing I've done here on the board is such a big, important experience my life (just like FOO was)... it also becomes like a camera lens or filter through which I'm looking at the world... sigh.... MORE INFORMATION.

So, I can indulge my ability to express all this crap in my head online with you all - and you understand. Not everyone has had these kinds of experiences. It's a safe environment, too. If you don't understand you ask questions, challenge ideas, suggest new ones -- all over the space of hours and days - even some threads resurface after months and years. You have time to process my tortured thought processes... twist it around look at it from 3-4 sides... and then respond. It's a slower pace - and it allows ROOM for more genuine, authentic interaction. Discussion boards in particular (versus chat rooms) have proven to be the educational equivalent and extension of the socratic method of in-class graduate school discussions of case studies. They are ideal for students, where English is their second language because of space allowed to process the information and then respond more appropriately, and completely.

Human interaction, face to face, involves body language, emotional subtexts, inside jokes..... so many, many things going on so very quickly. When I'm feeling more secure in my ability to surf life... I let myself practice being in that environment and experience it a little at a time. I do frequently allow myself "time outs"... to drop out of conversations, to sit quietly... to talk to only one person at a time. Some days I feel like surfing life - playing - staying on the surface of relationships and life. That's OK. Somedays I don't enjoy it one bit and don't have the 
energy. That's OK too. I don't feel there's anything strange about enjoying solitude or solitary pursuits: reading, art, hobbies... research 

Starting to ramble.... I just wanted to answer your question about this way of relating to people.

[Twoapenny]

Hi Phoenix, yes I get what you're saying there.  Quality of interaction is more important than quantity.  I've been thinking about the friendships thing a lot and I realised it isn't that I miss the people, it's that being rejected is just so difficult for me to cope with or to just accept as part of normal life moving and changing.  Once I realised it was more about that than the practicalities of how often someone phones me it seemed easier to cope with.  I am lucky to have some good friends, and I've realised the time has come to take a deep breath and start trying to develop some new friendships with the people I see regularly at various activities during the week.  I think I avoid doing it in case they reject me.  I still have a sense that I'm not good enough and no-one would want to spend time with me so in my head if someone stops calling I assume it's because I'm so awful.  That's in my head so I need to work on that.

Salsa, I did think about asking them why but I'm very afraid they might tell me what I dread hearing - that I'm whiney/boring/full of it etc etc.  It scares me but maybe I should bite the bullet and try it at some point, if only to give myself a bit of a pat on the back for having a go!

Beth, you are right, I have some really good friends that I don't spend as much time with as I would like and I should focus on them more rather than worrying about the ones who aren't interested!  My T did this exercise with me once and it was so revealing; she said imagine going in to a party where there are ten other guests.  Three of them decide they don't like you.  How do you feel?  The point of it, obviously, was all about other people's feelings towards me being so important and me identifying myself through the eyes of others.  At that point I was mortified that three didn't like me, it really shocked me how terrifying I found that.  She kept saying "but 7 people thought you were nice" and those 7 didn't matter to me at all, it was the 3 that I displeased that were the problem!  So I guess there are elements of that that I still need to work on!

Hey Silver, good to see you!  I wonder if technology is making people more self absorbed, it's so easy now to cut yourself off from the world.  I'm like you, I don't want someone to have to endure me for half an hour before they can escape so it's always a bit odd when other people don't seem to see how they come across!  It takes all sorts, I suppose.  But you're right, everyone else is nuts

[gratitude28]

Wow! That's such an interesting idea! The old me would definitely have freaked out even if there were one person who didn't like me. I have found lately that I don't care. I have even found that there are people I don't like. It's ok - to like and not like. xxxxoooo

[sKePTiKal]

Beth, it was a shock to me too - when I started meeting and being around people in 3-D in unstructured social situations (which was a NEW experience) - I tended to focus on the people "who didn't like me" - that I felt uncomfortable around - only to find out that this collection of little emotional signals simply meant: I don't like them... or I don't like that comment... or I don't like that behavior. I thought that probably qualified me as a really horrible person. The awful category of "judgemental". I can be judgemental and scathingly mean & sarcastic. But not without provocation; it's not who I am "at rest". I usually give people the benefit of the doubt -- and sometimes at my own expense.

But then, I started remembering all the people I've met recently that I really LIKE... folks I can laugh with, talk about serious topics with, just catch up on what's going on in each other's lives.

You know how people talk about chemistry between romantic couples? I think that's at work, too, with "friends". And because people's lives are moving more quickly, people's interests are so fluid (or distracted by the "latest"), they really are working hard & long hours just to maintain, people are living in circumstances of uncertainty and unsettledness. (IN GENERAL) The relationship between two people kinda needs some predictability of availability... where you can expect to find such & such a person at a specific time, and they're not preoccupied or actually engaged in a task or activity. I think even chemistry has it's cycles... it's ups and downs.

I've noticed that the folks in my neighborhood group who are retired -- have rebuilt jam-packed schedules from morning to evening, at least 5 days a week. While I am the opposite, I actually make a serious effort to avoid having a "schedule" for anything... I start to feel anxiety and pressured if I have too many appointments or "things I have to do" on my calendar. This need for "maximum freedom of obligation" even causes friction between me and my kids -- who are used to "doing things" to relax and recreate. Even with hubs - I have carved out time that is just mine, wide-open, that I can use for whatever (now to figure out what "whatever" is...! lol  ) But we touch base and each state our agendas for the day - and sometimes that's accomplished together; sometimes apart. And then, sometimes, life interrupts those plans... but I have that big, wide unstructured space that means I can be flexible in dealing with life's interruptions and still "take care of me".

Hubs doesn't really understand my need for solitude like this, but he's used to it now. And I "need" it less than I used to and am able to float from reflection and quiet to active social settings easier than I used to. I'm less uncomfortable in social settings... and more open with certain individuals... but I'm still not accepting all "invitations" for one on one interaction, not seeking it myself, and for me -- this isn't unhealthy. Comparing myself to others - I'm a freakin' HERMIT! The big question in gatherings is "what have you been doing? have you been anywhere?" Answer: nothing; nope - I told you we were boring!!   LOL... people don't take that description seriously, until they see me separating myself from large groups, peacefully people watching, not making an effort to engage with others - but not shrinking from them and withdrawing anymore, either. I don't flee anymore.

OOPS - wait! That's a bit hard on myself and a tad unfair and inaccurate - I am making one new friend; my part-time neighbor Patsy. She's a lot of fun, but we can talk about serious stuff too. But it's going SLOWLY. That works for me. And there's a couple people I'm interested in getting to know better -- but the opportunity hasn't yet arrived - their schedule, our schedule, you know??

I kinda see this as a necessary stage in the healing process. I've been able to find my voice (now to refine the details...) online. I still need the free-floating, stream of consciousness, reflective, ruminating space -- but less than I did. I figure time and life itself will eventually move me from this "quiet place"... and if it doesn't that's OK, because I am very, very comfortable here (I missed it!) and have absolutely no illusions about whether everyone else can maintain and have a great time without me being there. I'm not ready to participate at that level... and I'm not going to force it. I used to be a party-girl... I know what I'm missing. And it's not something I "need".

[Twoapenny]

Phoenix, I am very much like that, I hate having a day when we're doing back to back appointments and I hate timetabling and things like that.  I'm happy to book up something with a friend but I need to have at least the day before and the day after clear if I do.  I just find that being around people can trigger things for me and that I try to watch myself and not be too much of a people pleaser.  So it takes me a bit of time to prepare and I often find I need a bit of time afterwards to wind down a bit and think things through.  Sometimes a really small comment can bother me for days and it takes me a long time to work it through and decide whether it was something that was intended to be unkind, whether or not it should bother me, whether or not I ought to say something and so on.  I find it can take me ages to figure out what is 'right' for me about certain things and how to handle things that aren't.  Sometimes I get angry over something very small and I find I need to keep away from people a bit after that so that I don't take it out on the wrong person - still misdirect my feelings a lot of the time!  So yes, I too find it easier to be alone a lot, even though I get lonely.  The idea of being around people constantly makes me feel a bit quesy!

[JustKathy]

I'm very sensitive about the same things, and have been all my life. I have to think that being unloved as children probably makes us overly sensitive when friends move on.

I first felt this back when I was in my 20s. I had gotten my very first job, fresh out of high school, at a local TV station. I was there for nearly ten years. It was like family, with everyone being great friends and doing things together. I had no friends outside of that job. My best friends were at work, and I never socialized outside of the office. After I quit, I was forgotten. I became another ex-employee, replaced by a new girl, and life went on. I was crushed. It didn't help that my therapist blamed me for not pursuing the friendships, but my feeling was that I would have been hurt more if I essentially forced myself on people who had moved on.

This has happened to me in other areas of life besides work. For example, I had a doctor's office that I went to for many years for my dermatology and skin care. Everyone there knew me on a first-name basis. They treated me like family,  and I felt like I was among friends there. I had told them many times that I would be interested in a job there, but when they finally had an opening, they filled it with a friend of one of the other employees. When I told them how hurt I was that they didn't tell me, they suddenly became very business-like and told me it had been in the paper, and too bad if I didn't see it. At that point I realized that they weren't treating me like a valued friend, they were treating me as a valued patient. I felt like such a sucker, and again kicked myself for being oversensitive.

The only thing that I can guess is that it's an extension of our childhood experiences. Children who are unloved at home tend to cling anything even close to love. In school, it may be crushes on teachers who are kind to us. As adults, it may be bonds with co-workers. And when those people move on, we will feel abandoned. Long story short, I think it's perfectly normal for children of Ns to be this way. I have always been oversensitive, to the extreme. In fact, I have had many people throughout my life tell me to "stop being so sensitive."

I definitely agree with Bones that much of this has to do with not learning how to socialize normally. I had a very difficult time when I entered the workplace, feeling that I didn't belong there with "adults." I was raised to believe that I was a child who was to be seen seen and not heard, so it took many years for me to learn how to interact with adults in the workplace, even those who were the same age. Heck, I still don't think that I'm totally "right" in that department.

[BonesMS]

I'm very sensitive about the same things, and have been all my life. I have to think that being unloved as children probably makes us overly sensitive when friends move on.

I first felt this back when I was in my 20s. I had gotten my very first job, fresh out of high school, at a local TV station. I was there for nearly ten years. It was like family, with everyone being great friends and doing things together. I had no friends outside of that job. My best friends were at work, and I never socialized outside of the office. After I quit, I was forgotten. I became another ex-employee, replaced by a new girl, and life went on. I was crushed. It didn't help that my therapist blamed me for not pursuing the friendships, but my feeling was that I would have been hurt more if I essentially forced myself on people who had moved on.

This has happened to me in other areas of life besides work. For example, I had a doctor's office that I went to for many years for my dermatology and skin care. Everyone there knew me on a first-name basis. They treated me like family,  and I felt like I was among friends there. I had told them many times that I would be interested in a job there, but when they finally had an opening, they filled it with a friend of one of the other employees. When I told them how hurt I was that they didn't tell me, they suddenly became very business-like and told me it had been in the paper, and too bad if I didn't see it. At that point I realized that they weren't treating me like a valued friend, they were treating me as a valued patient. I felt like such a sucker, and again kicked myself for being oversensitive.

The only thing that I can guess is that it's an extension of our childhood experiences. Children who are unloved at home tend to cling anything even close to love. In school, it may be crushes on teachers who are kind to us. As adults, it may be bonds with co-workers. And when those people move on, we will feel abandoned. Long story short, I think it's perfectly normal for children of Ns to be this way. I have always been oversensitive, to the extreme. In fact, I have had many people throughout my life tell me to "stop being so sensitive."

I definitely agree with Bones that much of this has to do with not learning how to socialize normally. I had a very difficult time when I entered the workplace, feeling that I didn't belong there with "adults." I was raised to believe that I was a child who was to be seen seen and not heard, so it took many years for me to learn how to interact with adults in the workplace, even those who were the same age. Heck, I still don't think that I'm totally "right" in that department.

Thanks, Kathy.  I still struggle with this, even at my age.

Bones