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Sibling problems. . Was this the right thing to do?

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KayZee:
My brain is still spinning. . .

A little bit of back story: My sister (my only sibling) and I haven't really had a relationship for four years.  We see each other at some holidays and family gatherings, but that's it.  We don't really speak on the phone, visit each other, etc.  Looking back, my NM sort of dumped me as a source of N-supply back when I started dating my husband, going to therapy, setting more boundaries, living my own life, sticking up for the people my NM abused, and she made a big effort to woo my younger sister (who NM had spent the preceding couple of years treating horribly).  Since then our roles as daughters have reversed.  I've returned to my rightful childhood place as the scapegoat, and sis is back to being the golden child.  I had a confrontation with my mother four years ago, my sister leaped to NM's defense and the two have been like bobbsey twins ever since.  They talk on the phone five times a day.  Whisper about me in front of me when I see them.  NM has totally triangulated my relationship with my sister, but makes phoney speeches about how she's 'so sad' that sis and I aren't close and pleads with me to let her (NM) be the one who mediates and brings us back together.

Anyway, both NM and sis are at their worst after spending a number of days visiting with each other.  So I should have been on my guard, knowing sis went to stay with NM last week....But I wasn't.  I saw I missed a call from my sister last night.  And I stupidly/naively thought, Wow.  She's calling me.  She actually wants to talk things out and have a relationship with me.  (I've tried to approach her before in person, email, phone.  And talk about outstanding conflicts.  Past arguments.  Patching things up.  But every time she either shuts me down, says she doesn't have any interest, looks at me blankly or goes complaining to NM who injects herself firmly back in the middle.) 

So I call my sister back, and we start a little small talk about her job, my pregnancy, etc.  And I'm still thinking Wow!  Maybe I can have some family after all!  Maybe I can have one relationship with a blood relative that isn't polluted by NM!  Maybe sis really does care, miss me, wonder what's going on in my life.

And then it happens...Like a shoe dropping.  Or a door closing.  Sis tells me she's calling because she wants to know if I still know this film agent in LA, and if I can set up a meeting for her.  (Stupid Kay! Last time my sister called a year ago, it was the same thing...She was manic.  Talking about some children's picture book series she'd been working on and wondering if my writing agent would represent her.) 

This bothers me so deeply and makes me feel so sad for so many reasons:

1) I felt like I was being used and objectified in the same way that my parents (especially NM) have always made me feel that way.  I felt like sis wasn't seeing me as a person.  As a sister.  As the sister she's barely said a word to in four years.  This kind of lack of acknowledging that we aren't close and only calling me when I'm a means to some end that she wants.  It seemed totally N.  And yet, I don't think my sister is NPD.  If anything, she's always seemed more BPD, but when she hangs out with NM, she mirrors NM attitudes and callousness.

2) I already set up a meeting for sister with this woman six years ago!  And the woman was nice enough to say, yes, sure, I'll read any script that sis writes and finishes if she wants to send it to me.  But my sister hasn't ever done the work.  And she still doesn't have a finished product (script) to show her.  She basically just stayed up late one night, jotting down this idea for some Twilight-esque thing and woke up the next day convinced five hours of work produced the best thing Hollywood has ever seen.  Sis is basically asking for a B.S. meeting (about nothing) with no commensurate achievement, a.k.a. an actual, completed piece of writing.  That attitude enrages me with its N-ness!  And it puts me in really mortifying position.  I see no conceivable way that I could ask this woman to meet with my sister to discuss nothing but grandiose plans and fantasies about "amazing ideas" sis has never applied herself to or seen to fruition.

So I was kind of stammering...deeply pissed off and sad.  Feeling used.  Feeling loneliness and family-less.  And I said, sure fine.  I'll email this agent for you.  But I don't feel comfortable asking her for a meeting.  I will forward her the finished piece of work when you have it and ask if she'll give it a look.  But until you have a product to show her, I can't really help you.  And then, I found an exit and hung up.

So I set a boundary, but it still felt inauthentic.  Because I wanted to tell my sister how hurt and used it made me feel that she ignores me, gossips about me with NM, doesn't appear to want any relationship with me at all until she wants something.  But I didn't, because I felt certain that she would skirt the conversation and just go trotting back to NM, telling her how difficult I am and how selfish for not sharing my contacts.  Co-N Dad did the same thing to me a few years ago, bullied and pressured and harassed until I agreed to give his novel to a colleague of mine; the whole thing was really uncomfortable and made me feel equally depressed and exploited.

What would you all have done?  Do you try to be emotionally authentic when setting boundaries with N-like family members?  Or do you try to keep your feelings to yourself, so the wolf pack won't shred them to ribbons? 

God, just when I'm beginning to feel happy/grounded/centered, FOO can knock me back down in an instant.  I'm beginning to feel like I'm just done.  Finished.  And I want nothing to do with them.  There's no humanity there.  They just don't see people as people. 

Twoapenny:
Hi Kay,

I did try to be real and describe my feelings to my family in the early days, when I wanted to have a relationship with them and wanted them to change the way they treated me in order to do that.  They just can't understand or comprehend feelings, so it was a fruitless exercise and one that just gave them more ammunition to throw at me.  It's very hard to cope with.  I read something in a book - I can't remember which one now but if it comes to me I'll post the title - where the author compares it to expecting a pre school child to understand a book written for an adult.  Their brains just aren't ready for it and can't process the information, so you can read them the book a thousand times and it still won't make sense.  The N parent (or sibling/whoever) is in a similar situation - they just can't understand how you feel, no matter how hard you try to explain it.  Think of it as a kind of injury to the brain that stops that understanding being there.

It is very hard to cope with.  I think you did the right thing in the way you dealt with your sister today.  I found writing letters that I didn't send really helpful for getting out how I felt about the whole thing.  It took a long time but eventually I accepted them the way they are and I don't look to them for things they can't give me (love, affection, understanding, acceptance).  I had to learn to give myself those things and to stop trying to get them from other people.  I found that very hard and still struggle with it sometimes, but it's coming.

(((((((((((((((((((((((((Kay))))))))))))))))))))))))))

teartracks:



KayZee,

I relate.  I have an estranged/(divorced me) sister.  It has worked better for me once I cut out all efforts to build a bond between us.  Love your sister if you wish, but with plenty of distance between you.  It won't be easy getting used to her not being a controlling factor in your life, your thoughts, triggers that may pop up, but by detaching gradually, and with determination, it can happen. 

Brightest blessings,

tt


 

sKePTiKal:
Kay honey...

here's the thing about sharing your feelings with Ns.... they use them to hurt you... that's how they boost their own egos.

It may feel as if this is the "last straw" in their campaign of pretending you don't exist or matter... but in truth, if you can fully appreciate how many times they've done this to you -- and how nothing you can do will change that; make them care or feel badly about how they've treated you -- you will have taken the very first step toward being free of them. Yes, it's completely, totally 180 degrees opposite of how you would conduct yourself with normal people... fact is, they' ain't normal. And you can't teach them how to be, can't make them realize or "wake up"... they simply do not have the ability to understand that you have feelings -- and that their actions provoke feelings in you, that are miserable to carry around. It's as if that whole part of their brain has been removed.

As CONs - children of Ns - we're made to feel so responsible for THEIR feelings - scapegoating, abused for it in fact... that we expect (naturally) that things work the other way around too. They don't. Ns get away with what they do to others precisely because they don't have that part of the brain that lets them accept that others have feelings.

So, this changes our perspective on the "problem". Because even if you can get your brain around the above -- we still have the feelings, the instantaneous reactions, the deep down embedded yearning to stay "hooked" into this sham-form of a "relationship" with these people. It's the only form of relationship we're allowed. (Sorry - I'm back on that Professorial "we" style of talking again...) I had to accept the new perspective on the problem, and realize that it was my job to figure out what to do with my feelings -- since they didn't even recognize their own responsibility in how I felt about their treatment of me, there was no possible way for me to expect or ask that they help me feel better, you know?

The whole situation is a house of mirrors, so if you need to read the above a couple times. As a kid, I used to have nightmares about fun houses and mirrors that distorted everything -- particularly and especially -- how I saw myself.

You already have the "toolbox" to create a solution: you are already responsible for your own feelings, you can express them, understand what boundaries are, and are on the path to loving yourself in a healthy way. So, do yourself a favor -- grieve for "what doesn't exist": this is your own love, empathy and caring that you share with other "normal" people. Be kind to yourself and honor this capacity you have -- that love that hurts -- because the people who should be horrified and shocked that they've hurt you AREN'T. It is a true sadness that humans like this exist. And then resolve to try to protect yourself from them, in the future.

This means - for me - not having emotional expectations of them - expectations of being treated well. This means understanding that their behavior is part of their own PD; it has absolutely nothing to do with me -- therefore it's not logical (even in an emotional logic system) for me to feel shame about them, or to protect others from them, or to protect them from the normal expectations of normal people. I still go through the motions of the sham-relationship (my inner child Twiggy isn't so happy about that, btw... she wants me to be way more aggressive) with my mom and my brother. The only way I CAN continue on like this, is because I've been practicing that solution. It works for me -- you may have to make some adjustments in it for yourself. It's not perfect either -- I find I have to "check" with someone else -- my hubs or any other normal person -- from time to time, to ask if my confusion over something said -- or their emotional reaction -- registers as abnormal with other people, as it does me. And sometimes I slip up and fall back into my old hurt and outrage... that's when I have to give myself a hug, tell myself it's OK -- it's understandable that they'd get under my skin and I'd lose "control" over myself... and just let it go.

I can't rely on them - at all - to care about how I feel. My hubs is another story - my friends - my kids... they all care how I feel... but ultimately I'm still the one who's responsible for managing my feelings; knowing when to comfort myself and when to let things go.

((((((((((((Kay)))))))))))))

Ns are so frustrating and infuriating and confusing and horrifying and demanding and unfeeling - like Terminator robots - it's easy to forget to take care of oneself.

BonesMS:

--- Quote from: KayZee on August 24, 2012, 03:53:11 PM ---My brain is still spinning. . .

A little bit of back story: My sister (my only sibling) and I haven't really had a relationship for four years.  We see each other at some holidays and family gatherings, but that's it.  We don't really speak on the phone, visit each other, etc.  Looking back, my NM sort of dumped me as a source of N-supply back when I started dating my husband, going to therapy, setting more boundaries, living my own life, sticking up for the people my NM abused, and she made a big effort to woo my younger sister (who NM had spent the preceding couple of years treating horribly).  Since then our roles as daughters have reversed.  I've returned to my rightful childhood place as the scapegoat, and sis is back to being the golden child.  I had a confrontation with my mother four years ago, my sister leaped to NM's defense and the two have been like bobbsey twins ever since.  They talk on the phone five times a day.  Whisper about me in front of me when I see them.  NM has totally triangulated my relationship with my sister, but makes phoney speeches about how she's 'so sad' that sis and I aren't close and pleads with me to let her (NM) be the one who mediates and brings us back together.

Anyway, both NM and sis are at their worst after spending a number of days visiting with each other.  So I should have been on my guard, knowing sis went to stay with NM last week....But I wasn't.  I saw I missed a call from my sister last night.  And I stupidly/naively thought, Wow.  She's calling me.  She actually wants to talk things out and have a relationship with me.  (I've tried to approach her before in person, email, phone.  And talk about outstanding conflicts.  Past arguments.  Patching things up.  But every time she either shuts me down, says she doesn't have any interest, looks at me blankly or goes complaining to NM who injects herself firmly back in the middle.) 

So I call my sister back, and we start a little small talk about her job, my pregnancy, etc.  And I'm still thinking Wow!  Maybe I can have some family after all!  Maybe I can have one relationship with a blood relative that isn't polluted by NM!  Maybe sis really does care, miss me, wonder what's going on in my life.

And then it happens...Like a shoe dropping.  Or a door closing.  Sis tells me she's calling because she wants to know if I still know this film agent in LA, and if I can set up a meeting for her.  (Stupid Kay! Last time my sister called a year ago, it was the same thing...She was manic.  Talking about some children's picture book series she'd been working on and wondering if my writing agent would represent her.) 

This bothers me so deeply and makes me feel so sad for so many reasons:

1) I felt like I was being used and objectified in the same way that my parents (especially NM) have always made me feel that way.  I felt like sis wasn't seeing me as a person.  As a sister.  As the sister she's barely said a word to in four years.  This kind of lack of acknowledging that we aren't close and only calling me when I'm a means to some end that she wants.  It seemed totally N.  And yet, I don't think my sister is NPD.  If anything, she's always seemed more BPD, but when she hangs out with NM, she mirrors NM attitudes and callousness.

2) I already set up a meeting for sister with this woman six years ago!  And the woman was nice enough to say, yes, sure, I'll read any script that sis writes and finishes if she wants to send it to me.  But my sister hasn't ever done the work.  And she still doesn't have a finished product (script) to show her.  She basically just stayed up late one night, jotting down this idea for some Twilight-esque thing and woke up the next day convinced five hours of work produced the best thing Hollywood has ever seen.  Sis is basically asking for a B.S. meeting (about nothing) with no commensurate achievement, a.k.a. an actual, completed piece of writing.  That attitude enrages me with its N-ness!  And it puts me in really mortifying position.  I see no conceivable way that I could ask this woman to meet with my sister to discuss nothing but grandiose plans and fantasies about "amazing ideas" sis has never applied herself to or seen to fruition.

So I was kind of stammering...deeply pissed off and sad.  Feeling used.  Feeling loneliness and family-less.  And I said, sure fine.  I'll email this agent for you.  But I don't feel comfortable asking her for a meeting.  I will forward her the finished piece of work when you have it and ask if she'll give it a look.  But until you have a product to show her, I can't really help you.  And then, I found an exit and hung up.

So I set a boundary, but it still felt inauthentic.  Because I wanted to tell my sister how hurt and used it made me feel that she ignores me, gossips about me with NM, doesn't appear to want any relationship with me at all until she wants something.  But I didn't, because I felt certain that she would skirt the conversation and just go trotting back to NM, telling her how difficult I am and how selfish for not sharing my contacts.  Co-N Dad did the same thing to me a few years ago, bullied and pressured and harassed until I agreed to give his novel to a colleague of mine; the whole thing was really uncomfortable and made me feel equally depressed and exploited.

What would you all have done?  Do you try to be emotionally authentic when setting boundaries with N-like family members?  Or do you try to keep your feelings to yourself, so the wolf pack won't shred them to ribbons? 

God, just when I'm beginning to feel happy/grounded/centered, FOO can knock me back down in an instant.  I'm beginning to feel like I'm just done.  Finished.  And I want nothing to do with them.  There's no humanity there.  They just don't see people as people. 

--- End quote ---

(((((((((((((((((((((((((KayZee))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

I can relate!!!!

Just went through a similar situation a couple of weeks ago with a member of the NFOO.  It's NOT pleasant and it's definitely NOT fun! 

It hurts when the realization hits that the NFOO don't see you as a person, as a human being with feelings but only as an object to be USED for their own self-gratification.  During the brief phone conversation I had, the NFOO kept trying to pry into what I was thinking and feeling about what the NQueen-Bitch did to my NGCB and me and I stated that I will not discuss it.  If he wanted to know WHY NGCB made the decisions he did, he will HAVE TO ASK HIM as I do not discuss speculations.  NFOO got royally pissed off because I DARED to set a boundary.  I terminated the call a few minutes later.

It really hurt to know that the ONLY time the NFOO "condescends" to speak to me is ONLY WHEN THEY WANT SOMETHING or to USE me as an OBJECT!  Now that they know that I'm not afraid to say "NO" to their demands, I don't expect to hear from NFOO anymore.

I guess the only phamily we have is each other......here.

Bones

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