Author Topic: Pity vs. Hatred  (Read 5551 times)

ResilientLady

  • Guest
Pity vs. Hatred
« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2004, 05:02:23 PM »
Hi EC,
Thx for letting me know about the books you have read... I read books not only about N b/c I wanted to have a bigger picture about psychic disorders/behaviors. Here is how I proceeded:

-First, like you did, I read a few books about Narcissism and N parents:
I have read two of these books: Toxic Parents (which I found excellent, though it did not convince me about the state of my parents), and Why is it Always About You, which did not teach me much, I was a bit disappointed by it. The other book about Nparents’ impact on their children I read is : Trapped in the Mirror, which I found by far the very best book about the subject. I had also started (before) learning about N by reading stuff on Sam Vaknin web site, which I found a good source too.

-Then I read books about abuse, to get a broader perspective :
1. The Verbally Abusive Relationship: How to Recognize it and How to Respond
2. The Secret of Overcoming Verbal Abuse: Getting Off the Emotional Roller Coaster
3. In Sheep's Clothing: Understanding and Dealing With Manipulative People
4. Controlling People: How to Recognize, Understand and Deal with People Who Try to Control You
Basically they define very precisely what is abuse (emotional and verbal abuse, v. Physical abuse), and they give very good tips about how to handle abusive situations/behaviors.
N°1 is a classic, that spells exatly what is abuse. N°2 is maybe the best to handle difficult abusive situations, it is written by A.Ellis, one of the Behavioral Psychology approach. N°3 is very good to detect “covert” abuse (v. overt abuse, which is easier to detect). N°4 is by the same author as N°1, and is also pretty good.
These books teach you how to respond adequaletely to abusive situations. They helped me alot, b/c once I knew how to detect these abusive behaviors and how to respond to them, I had less fear, therefore less anger b/c I knew I could respond and not only react. Now I even happen to laugh inside (sometimes!!)  when I notice these behaviors.

-Then to strengthen my “defense strategies” I bought a few books about boundaries. They were also very helpful b/c I felt reassured about my individuality, and not only in a confrontational context. I bought two books by the same author : Boundaries Where You End and I Begin, and Where to Draw the Line: How to Set Healthy Boundaries Every Day. I foound the first one a bit disappointing but the second was pretty helpful.

-Then I bought books about three other personality disorders: BPD (often related to NPD), and passive-aggressivity, and codependence (which is what those living close to N may suffer from)
1.Women Who Love Too Much ;
2. Stop Walking on Eggshells.
3. Living with the passive-aggressive man
4. Codependent no more
I found N°1 excellent (mostly about P/A, codependents, a little bit about N), not only did it explain my past relationships, but it also helped me understand the dynamics of my parents as a couple. N°3 is also pretty good. I found N°2 very disappointing. N°4 is a classic and is really good too.

-Finally, as to “feel better” after after having all these books, I focused on developping a more healthy self, through the books :
1. Ending the Struggle Against Yourself
2. When Misery Is Company: Ending Self-Sabotage and Misery Addiction
I found both of them really good to help me regain a whole/more integrated/more genuine self. Very soothing after the “roller-coaster” I had experienced through the reading of other books.
I had also bought a few other books about ending being a victim which were not helpful to me, I would focus on my pain, and get either more depressed or more angry, w/o any “solution” in sight... One exception: Stalking the soul. But I would not recommend it for a beginning.


You may keep in mind that some of these books may have a real deep impact on your psyche (therfore be careful  :shock: about what to read and when to read it). This is why I read them in the order I wrote the list: start with the “tough” ones and end with the soothing ones...
These basic things I happened not to “naturally” learn years ago, I could discover them through books... (even though I am aware that book learning will never replace life learning). It works for some people, it does not for others.  :)
For my part, these books helped me understand. And not get stuck in fear/anger projections... It may be difficult at the beginning to really distinguish b/w setting healthy boundaries towards N (assertiveness) and (un?)controlled anger (aggressivity). But (again) I think it is a matter of time... :wink: and understanding boundaries (one's and others').
PS I was wondering, did you think about seeing a therapist (if I may ask again) or maybe that is too early?
Take care,
-RL

ResilientLady

  • Guest
Pity vs. Hatred
« Reply #16 on: November 19, 2004, 05:03:23 PM »
Hi EC,
Thx for letting me know about the books you have read... I read books not only about N b/c I wanted to have a bigger picture about psychic disorders/behaviors. Here is how I proceeded:

-First, like you did, I read a few books about Narcissism and N parents:
I have read two of these books: Toxic Parents (which I found excellent, though it did not convince me about the state of my parents), and Why is it Always About You, which did not teach me much, I was a bit disappointed by it. The other book about Nparents’ impact on their children I read is : Trapped in the Mirror, which I found by far the very best book about the subject. I had also started (before) learning about N by reading stuff on Sam Vaknin web site, which I found a good source too.

-Then I read books about abuse, to get a broader perspective :
1. The Verbally Abusive Relationship: How to Recognize it and How to Respond
2. The Secret of Overcoming Verbal Abuse: Getting Off the Emotional Roller Coaster
3. In Sheep's Clothing: Understanding and Dealing With Manipulative People
4. Controlling People: How to Recognize, Understand and Deal with People Who Try to Control You
Basically they define very precisely what is abuse (emotional and verbal abuse, v. Physical abuse), and they give very good tips about how to handle abusive situations/behaviors.
N°1 is a classic, that spells exatly what is abuse. N°2 is maybe the best to handle difficult abusive situations, it is written by A.Ellis, one of the Behavioral Psychology approach. N°3 is very good to detect “covert” abuse (v. overt abuse, which is easier to detect). N°4 is by the same author as N°1, and is also pretty good.
These books teach you how to respond adequaletely to abusive situations. They helped me alot, b/c once I knew how to detect these abusive behaviors and how to respond to them, I had less fear, therefore less anger b/c I knew I could respond and not only react. Now I even happen to laugh inside (sometimes!!)  when I notice these behaviors.

-Then to strengthen my “defense strategies” I bought a few books about boundaries. They were also very helpful b/c I felt reassured about my individuality, and not only in a confrontational context. I bought two books by the same author : Boundaries Where You End and I Begin, and Where to Draw the Line: How to Set Healthy Boundaries Every Day. I foound the first one a bit disappointing but the second was pretty helpful.

-Then I bought books about three other personality disorders: BPD (often related to NPD), and passive-aggressivity, and codependence (which is what those living close to N may suffer from)
1.Women Who Love Too Much ;
2. Stop Walking on Eggshells.
3. Living with the passive-aggressive man
4. Codependent no more
I found N°1 excellent (mostly about P/A, codependents, a little bit about N), not only did it explain my past relationships, but it also helped me understand the dynamics of my parents as a couple. N°3 is also pretty good. I found N°2 very disappointing. N°4 is a classic and is really good too.

-Finally, as to “feel better” after after having all these books, I focused on developping a more healthy self, through the books :
1. Ending the Struggle Against Yourself
2. When Misery Is Company: Ending Self-Sabotage and Misery Addiction
I found both of them really good to help me regain a whole/more integrated/more genuine self. Very soothing after the “roller-coaster” I had experienced through the reading of other books.
I had also bought a few other books about ending being a victim which were not helpful to me, I would focus on my pain, and get either more depressed or more angry, w/o any “solution” in sight... One exception: Stalking the soul. But I would not recommend it for a beginning.


You may keep in mind that some of these books may have a real deep impact on your psyche (therfore be careful  :shock: about what to read and when to read it). This is why I read them in the order I wrote the list: start with the “tough” ones and end with the soothing ones...
These basic things I happened not to “naturally” learn years ago, I could discover them through books... (even though I am aware that book learning will never replace life learning). It works for some people, it does not for others.  :)
For my part, these books helped me understand. And not get stuck in fear/anger projections... It may be difficult at the beginning to really distinguish b/w setting healthy boundaries towards N (assertiveness) and (un?)controlled anger (aggressivity). But (again) I think it is a matter of time... :wink: and understanding boundaries (one's and others').
PS I was wondering, did you think about seeing a therapist (if I may ask again) or maybe that is too early?
Take care,
-RL

ResilientLady

  • Guest
Pity vs. Hatred
« Reply #17 on: November 19, 2004, 05:07:45 PM »
:oops:  WHHOOOPPS.... I thought the post was not long enough  :mrgreen: , I needed to post it twice  :mrgreen:  :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
Sorry for that.
Does anyone know how to delete a post or that is not possible?? :oops:
-RL

Dawning

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 344
Pity vs. Hatred
« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2004, 04:12:18 AM »
Hi EC.

I, like Bunny, think Seeker's metaphor is "awesome."  So, Seeker, if you are still around, thanks for that.  Btw, I am sorry to see you go.

I don't think pity vs hatred...I think *what do I have to do to preserve my mental sanity around them?*  I have noticed that pity is really a kind of disinterest.  Hatred tends to have a boomerang effect.  At this point, I think about what it is that I want.  As long as I engage them with emotion, I feel I will always live under their shadow.  So I make a personal effort to be compassionate yet unemotional in their presence and if they say something ugly or uncalled for, I laugh it off.  My mother hates to be laughed at even though she loves taking the piss out of others.
"No one's life is worth more than any other...no sister is less than any brother...."

Anonymous

  • Guest
Pity vs. Hatred
« Reply #19 on: November 27, 2004, 11:11:19 AM »
As has been said many times already, great topic.  There are so many awesome posts here.

A huge point already made is that we need to do what works for us.  Yes, I need to work on me and on what works for me.  I can't change anyone else and I want to be in a comfortable, healthy state, so I must do/think what ever gets me toward that goal.

Some people might confuse this with selfishness.  Some have been taught/programmed to think that it is selfish to do for self.  It's not.  It's survival and preservation.  It's necessary in order to be of use to anyone else, so really, it isn't selfish at all.  If we stay in an angry, confused, ignorant state, we are useless in regard to enjoying our life, or enhancing anyone else's, imo.

What feels best for me is pity/empathy above anger or hate.  Understanding above confusion.
Knowledge instead of ignorance.
Kindness over unkindness.

Even if it makes me seem tolerant.  Even if it is easier to feel anger and confusion and to act unkindly and not bother to learn or gain knowledge.  What works for me is to try my best to overcome those urges to do what is easy and aim toward behaving the way I would like to be treated, even if it is more work and harder to achieve, than behaving in what seems the easiest way.

I might not do it all of the time because I know I will never be perfect and so sometimes, yes, ambivalence will come into play, anger will erupt, confusion will take over,  but if I keep trying, I know I will get better and better at dealing with n-behaviour, and I will become more and more knowledgable, and it will get easier and easier to have pity, empathy, tolerance and to act kindly, in the face of the nastiness that guiles me and disrupts my healthy state.  In this way, I will eventually learn to NOT LET the nastiness guile me and disrupt my healthy state.   Then I will be able to sigh......awwwwwww....success!