Author Topic: The A-I of Surviving N Mothers  (Read 4624 times)

Ales2

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The A-I of Surviving N Mothers
« on: July 22, 2014, 12:18:49 PM »


Anyway, here is a little handy-dandy tool I use during my day to stay strong and remain calm. Having them in alphabetical order makes them easy for me to remember all 16 of them in order.

A - Awareness, Assertiveness, Autonomy
B - Boundaries
C - Courage
D - Detachment, Do it yourself!
E - EGO (i.e have more of one and be Ok with that. No more superiority from others and inferiority from myself)
F - Faith
G - Gratitude
H - Habits, Honesty
I - Initiative, Independence, Intelligence, Integrity.


A note - notice that F does not include Forgiveness. It originally did, but I find that one is too tough for me. When I forgive, I tend to let my guard down and that backfires. Boundaries are better than forgiveness with a chronic abuser, at least in my opionion, feel free to disagree.  And gratitude, an odd one right? I say "Im grateful this person has shown their true colors" is me being happy that Im not influenced by toxic people anymore.
 

My tool that I am working on daily right now is..... Stay strong, get a job, move on. Any other answer is counterproductive.

A good day and happy week to all!

 :D
« Last Edit: July 22, 2014, 01:01:29 PM by Ales2 »

river

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Re: The A-I of Surviving N Mothers
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2014, 04:25:25 PM »
Really like this. 
And agree about forgiveness.  I consider its not my job to forgive humans, its God's job. Its my job to live by the best principles I can at any given moment, as you imply. Thats my amends, and feels more right sized solution for me than forgiveness.   

Ales2

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Re: The A-I of Surviving N Mothers
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2014, 05:44:43 PM »
My issue with forgiveness is simple - I get forgiving the drunk driver/rapist/murderer that killed your sister or some other horrible one time event. Its one time and its over, even as much as that hurts, there is no going back.

With family abusers, some adults can forgive the physical or sexual abuse because it is OVER and does not continue into adulthood. With family emotional or verbal abusers, they will continue until the day they die to make life miserable. And, the abuse actually gets worse when you figure out their game, challenge them or try to cut them off.  That is what I am currently going through and I wont be bullied into "forgiving" someone so they can re-abuse me which is what she is doing right now. Boundaries are the ONLY way. 

Gaining Strength

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Re: The A-I of Surviving N Mothers
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2014, 02:24:06 AM »
That's a great list, impressive.  It is so important to stay strong and not let the fear and subjugation take hold (I say that to myself.)

I think each of us gets to decide the significant question on forgiveness for ourselves. If it feels belittling then no way Josea.  Some days I choose to forgive them and some days not.  When I do I see them as the broken children they must have been and I forgive them because they were broken themselves but as adults I haven't found the wherewithal to forgive them.  I do find that my anger towards them binds me more than I care to be bound and forgiveness frees me of them. But I can never forgive their actions towards me and the hell they caused.

It seems al so complicated.

Hopalong

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Re: The A-I of Surviving N Mothers
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2014, 07:44:22 AM »
Forgiving my mother became easier after I learned about her abusive father.
And, taking care of her through very very old age, cancer, and stroke.

She had that hollow N emptiness and was not affectionate, but was
dutiful. Very damaging to me in her way, but never overtly abusive.

So I think she was much easier to forgive than the mothers of many here.

Hops

"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Ales2

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Re: The A-I of Surviving N Mothers
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2014, 03:18:24 PM »
Hi TT - Thanks for your post and interesting perspective.

After this labor day vacation, I have been more focused on getting over the bitterness she has caused in my life and learning how to be autonomous so that no person can steal my good attitude from me. Some of that will involve forgiving the past and not involving her in my future, so you might be way ahead of me.






Gaining Strength

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Re: The A-I of Surviving N Mothers
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2014, 10:36:20 AM »
I believe you can do that Ales2.

I have found the bitterness began to unravel itself as I allowed myself to recognize its effect in my life and to acknowledge it to myself.  It hid from me in ways and was not as easy to recognize as I would have expected.  And some of it felt  so legitimate. At times just recognizing it and then acknowledging to myself that it came from my parents treatment of me was enough to let it go.  I'm sure I have more hidden but the lions hare is gone.  It has beena great relief.

Ales2

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Re: The A-I of Surviving N Mothers
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2016, 10:43:52 AM »
So for an update - sometime last summer, I was reading alot of Wayne Dyer, coincidentally, I was reading one of his books when he died.  I had also read a book by Joyce Meyer called Beauty for Ashes (which is I highly recommend as emotional healing if the "God" part doesn't bother you) and her book on Forgiveness (average, not a great book) so I was trying to over come the issue.  Dyer basically summed it up in 3 words "Forgive the Unforgiveable" and unforgiveable was my problem because the issue of verbal abuse/undermining can be ongoing. So, for many months, this really helped me put it behind me and then I went back to thr Joyce Meyer book and her teachings became more resonant and I was able to intergrate those as well. 

As is happens I then had two bad incidents with the NMom. One involved her stalking me and showing at my Dad's grave when I visited on his birthday.  She resents that I drive 100 miles to visit the grave, but never come to visit her or spend time with her. She knows I will show up  at the cemetary on one of three days, his birthday (Nov), the anniversary of his passing/funeral (June) or Fathers Day (June), so she monitors the place. Creepy.

Then this past friday, she initated a visit to my apartment, which I accepted with skepticism. In recent months, she has accused me of stealing my Dads papers and elder abuse. None of these accusations are true.  She has accused me of both of these in the past and I did some reading on false accusations. Im an employable adult, i.e 47, (she is 79, out of the work force) my reputation is important. Theft and Elder Abuse are felony crimes. To make continual accusations and then not report them as crimes to the police is a form of harassment and slander (i.e oral defamation).  So, we had a nice visit, I was almost feeling bad - she can be nice, but of course, it doesn't last long. At the end of the visit, she said she wanted to leave at 8pm, then she pulled out some paperwork and launched into the "you stole Dad's paperwork and I want it back."  I explained again that I have not seen or stolen his paperwork. She became increasingly hostile and started in with elder abuse accusations then yelled at me ("Something is seriously wrong with you")  and hurried out of the apartment.

I called the police, they came. I told them on the call, that an elderly woman needs to file a police report for elder abuse and they came within 20 minutes. They separate us and then I explain the constant accusations, but NMom refuses to give a statement.  She leaves without being able to talk to me.

WELL. Not sure what that backlash will be. The reality is that constant accusations that go unreported are harassment... I may have called her bluff. As I waited for the police to come, I pretty much knew she would not give a statement (she had documents on hand (which prove nothing), yet never showed them to police. But, it could have gone bad. She could have lied and been dramatic and I could have been going to jail right there (unlikely but possible). But unfortunately for her, I knew her "evidence" is non-existent and lies might get you arrested, but without evidence, very little chance of further trouble. The police by the way, took me seriously and there were mostly nice, except they berated me for allowing her to come visit.  No more of that.

Through this nonsense - I have also learned that if a parent accuses you of Elder Abuse, you cannot visit them in their home or in a hospital without a neutral third party present. These Ns are very dangerous, some are pathological liars, so caution is always a good thing.

Anyway, I guess my point is, forgiveness can be dangerous and lead to incidents like these. Forgiveness maybe one thing, visits or LC are entirely another.  I made a mistake by allowing her to visit. Lesson Learned.

Twoapenny

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Re: The A-I of Surviving N Mothers
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2016, 12:31:45 PM »
Hi Ales,

I can relate to all of that, as for years my mum kept claiming I was abusing my son and caused us no end of problems through his early years with social workers and various other professionals getting involved.  I did realise that the only way I could stop it from happening again was to have absolutely no contact with her or anyone else she knew.  I knew that even being in contact with my aunts (her sisters) meant she could say "well I spoke to my sister and she told me Tup did x, y and z".  It would have been fabricated but we would still have been investigated again and it's very distressing.

The forgiveness thing is a tough one because I think not having your mum in your life is very hard.  It just seems to me to be a natural thing to have the person that brought you into the world involved with you so when abuse makes that impossible it leaves a very big hole.  I found I reached out to my mum several times as I started to get better and cope better with the things she had done.  I think a part of me was still hoping that she'd have changed and that she'd have realised what she lost and amended her ways.  I now understand that she can't change her behaviour any more than I can change the colour of my eyes.  It is what she does and always has been.

I was listening to a nice meditation about forgiveness; they were talking about it not meaning that you have to be in contact with the person or condone what they had done but more that you accept it happened and try not to let it poison your life.  I think forgiveness is easier said than done; I'm closer to it now than I have been in the past.  I'm trying to forgive myself for things that I've done and not being perfect throughout my life and I'm finding that as hard as forgiving other people!

Ales2

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Re: The A-I of Surviving N Mothers
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2016, 01:20:29 PM »
Quote
I can relate to all of that, as for years my mum kept claiming I was abusing my son and caused us no end of problems through his early years with social workers and various other professionals getting involved.  I did realise that the only way I could stop it from happening again was to have absolutely no contact with her or anyone else she knew.  I knew that even being in contact with my aunts (her sisters) meant she could say "well I spoke to my sister and she told me Tup did x, y and z".  It would have been fabricated but we would still have been investigated again and it's very distressing.


yes, yes, all true. I remember reading your posts about it a long time ago. I guess the good part is social workers are now more savvy and realize that vindictive people use false allegations as a form of harassment.

One ironic point is that while visiting she really insulted me when talking about my work (or lack thereof at one point) and made a comment about needing a third party... lol she got one ...

Anyway, I did forgive and I still agree with what Dyer said about it. Im still working on that. My inner life is getting better all the time, now I just need to get the outer life in alignment, that is where I am still having trouble.

Thanks for your posts and comments!

ann3

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Re: The A-I of Surviving N Mothers
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2016, 02:39:30 AM »
Yikes, Ales2!!  That scenario could have ended badly for you, Thank Goodness the cops understood.  Seems that No Contact is the way to go with your NM.  Maybe, perhaps, consult with an Elder Care lawyer so that you know how to protect yourself from now on?  The Elder Care lawyer can instruct you what to do & what not to do.

Regarding Forgiveness, IMO, it's not a clear cut subject.  Based on my readings & experience, I wonder if the stuff written by Dyer & Meyer (and many others who write on this topic) is geared towards forgiving Ns?  Based on my experience, applying the "Forgiveness" literature to Ns can be dangerous because the Ns don't/can't comprehend the forgiveness being offered & instead view it as us opening the door to them, so that they can resume their N behavior.  Maybe it's that Ns view forgiveness as the removal of the boundaries we've finally been able to build & they think things will go back to what they were, as they resume being their usual N selves?  IDK.

I have found that when one is still dealing with and in contact with an N, its OK to forgive them in our hearts and pray for them, but to protect ourselves & keep up the boundaries when dealing with them in real life.  So, this means that we could both forgive the N and also have LC or NC.

Tup sums this up really nicely:
Quote
I think a part of me was still hoping that she'd have changed and that she'd have realised what she lost and amended her ways.  I now understand that she can't change her behaviour any more than I can change the colour of my eyes.  It is what she does and always has been.

I was listening to a nice meditation about forgiveness; they were talking about it not meaning that you have to be in contact with the person or condone what they had done but more that you accept it happened and try not to let it poison your life.  I think forgiveness is easier said than done

Based on what I've read, and as Tupp mentions, one of the major themes in Forgiveness is Poison: we should not let our anger (or negative feelings) poison us.  So, maybe one of the most helpful aspects of Forgiveness is to put the bad stuff behind us, so that we can live in the present & not feel like our anger drags us down & interferes with our daily living.  I guess this is what "letting go" & "detaching" means.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2016, 03:06:52 AM by ann3 »

Ales2

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Re: The A-I of Surviving N Mothers
« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2016, 02:14:49 PM »
Quote
Yikes, Ales2!!  That scenario could have ended badly for you, Thank Goodness the cops understood.  Seems that No Contact is the way to go with your NM.  Maybe, perhaps, consult with an Elder Care lawyer so that you know how to protect yourself from now on?  The Elder Care lawyer can instruct you what to do & what not to do.
   

Only a moderate chance of going bad. When they came there was no probable cause, i.e police have to see something to arrest me, and just a report (which never materialized) would not be enough, they would have to investigate charges before an arrest. From what I have now learned, with Elder Abuse claims, I cannot be alone with her in her home or a hospital without a neutral third party to check me in and out.  Im prepared so I can;t be lured again into a situation where she can make false claims. Ive also heard to not talk to her on the phone anymore, just send a letter, but poilte ones obviously. SHe is the one who makes hostile verbal threats not me.

Quote
Regarding Forgiveness, IMO, it's not a clear cut subject.  Based on my readings & experience, I wonder if the stuff written by Dyer & Meyer (and many others who write on this topic) is geared towards forgiving Ns?  Based on my experience, applying the "Forgiveness" literature to Ns can be dangerous because the Ns don't/can't comprehend the forgiveness being offered & instead view it as us opening the door to them, so that they can resume their N behavior.  Maybe it's that Ns view forgiveness as the removal of the boundaries we've finally been able to build & they think things will go back to what they were, as they resume being their usual N selves?  IDK.

Everything you have said here is true. You made good points about forgiveness/boundaries/Nism being more dangerous than other situations. Meyer was sexually abused by her father and he groomed her for the abuse verbally. She is very aware of emotional abuse she experienced and have to say she won me over with her book and her intelligence on the matter.  Have to say though, she did not confront her father until she was late 40s early 50s and by then she was financially successful, married, with 4 kids. She had a very strong financial and emotional support system before she confronted him and forgave him. Im in a much more vulnerable position than she is - I am by myself. The only one encouraging me are other DONM people and places like this board. No husband, no financial security. 

Thanks so much for your post, I am working on the detachment. Ive more than let go, but oddly, she is the one who always circles back around. I was LC, no visits, no calls, and only send cards on holidays, but I will dial that back further to NC.  She came to visit me, my mistake was allowing it.

ann3

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Re: The A-I of Surviving N Mothers
« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2016, 06:27:31 PM »
Hi Ales,
I didn't mean to sound critical of you.  It's just that your NM sounds really manipulative and sounds like she may have tried to maneuver you into a position.  Elder Care Abuse allegations can be murky, especially among family members, so it's good you've got the "Do's & Don'ts".
I like Joyce Meyers, she's got a lot of spunk.  I've read about & heard her discuss her abuse.  She's very inspirational.
I hear what you're saying about lacking financial and emotional support systems, but you sound strong, clear headed and intelligent. 
Yeah, I think forgiving Ns really boils down to Detachment plus the 5 Stages of Grief.  If the Ns were "normal" people, we could do "Forgiveness", but Ns are not "normal", so they don't understand "Forgiveness" & therefore, it's dangerous for us to "Forgive" the N. 
I think forgiving an N is more like us going thru the 5 Stages of Grief, with the 5th Stage being Detachment: we accept that this person is an N and therefore, we know we must detach.

Ales2

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Re: The A-I of Surviving N Mothers
« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2016, 11:07:03 PM »
Hi Ann3 - No, you were not being critical at all - you were giving me good thoughts and suggestions which I appreciate. Speaking with an elder abuse lawyer is very good suggestion, I did not consult with one, but called Adult Protective Services and got information from a case worker there. It is very murky for sure.  Just by making the accusation, weirdly I am actually free from dealing with any of her financial or medical dealings. Since the trust is gone, she will have to rely on my brother, I will not be able to help with anything which is fine by me.  For example, when she accused me of theft years ago, I quickly returned my house keys (the house I grew up in basically. I still have a room there with a closet of old toys and school books and papers)  and her response was "I bet you made an extra set".  LOL.

Her level of manipulation is astounding... but I am wise to the game which angers her because I can't be used any more.

Thanks for your post and compliments, I hope I get past this nonsense soon!

Twoapenny

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Re: The A-I of Surviving N Mothers
« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2016, 01:49:00 AM »
Hi Ann3 - No, you were not being critical at all - you were giving me good thoughts and suggestions which I appreciate. Speaking with an elder abuse lawyer is very good suggestion, I did not consult with one, but called Adult Protective Services and got information from a case worker there. It is very murky for sure.  Just by making the accusation, weirdly I am actually free from dealing with any of her financial or medical dealings. Since the trust is gone, she will have to rely on my brother, I will not be able to help with anything which is fine by me.  For example, when she accused me of theft years ago, I quickly returned my house keys (the house I grew up in basically. I still have a room there with a closet of old toys and school books and papers)  and her response was "I bet you made an extra set".  LOL.

Her level of manipulation is astounding... but I am wise to the game which angers her because I can't be used any more.

Thanks for your post and compliments, I hope I get past this nonsense soon!

Whenever I come on here I'm always amazed at the similarities in the things people experience and I read so many things where I think "wow, they're describing my mum!".  I think not having to deal with her affairs will be a blessing; I know as my mother's getting older she's making my sister's life a misery (the only one of five kids who has anything to do with either parent); her behaviour just seems to increase as time passes (or maybe we become more aware of it; I don't know?).  It is, as you say, nonsensical stuff to deal with and I have been reminded of how ridiculous it is as I'm in contact with my younger sister after a ten year period of not speaking.  She has told me about some of the family 'events' she has attended and all I can say is I think they should close down the colleges for psychologists in the UK and send those wishing to learn about human behaviour to live with some of my relatives instead :)

On the subject of forgiveness it is something I have really struggled with for years now.  I've got to a point where I think what I would like is to be able to look back at the things that have happened and to not have a lot of negative feeling attached to it; for them to just be memories and not have emotional reactions to them.  To me that would be the best case scenario and I will feel like I've been able to forgive or let go of it all.  I don't feel a need for my mum to be involved in or attached to this at all (and I'm nowhere near this with my step-dad, just thinking about him still makes me feel sick) but I'm thinking of it as something I want for me.  I'm kind of getting there.  It's my son's birthday tomorrow and that's usually quite triggering; my mum usually flares up around birthdays and Christmas so I'm usually on high alert, I get upset that there's no family to celebrate the day with him and I get angry when I think about his birthdays when he was little that all became a focus on her with some drama or other going on.  But this year that's been much, much reduced; a few moments but on the whole pretty good.  I only say all this Ales because it sounds to me like you're almost there; I think sometimes we need one last 'event' to really hammer home okay, this is it, it's not going to be any different, time to close that door.  I think you're doing great :) x