Author Topic: PR's new saga...  (Read 16986 times)

sKePTiKal

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Re: PR's new saga...
« Reply #45 on: October 26, 2015, 08:16:55 AM »
Thanks TT, before hubs' brother left, he prayed over hubs. It helped the brother and me - but hubs isn't registering any reaction facially or expressing anything verbally. And I'm kind of caught in the caregiver "trap": trying to be cheerful, problem-solving the things that are getting harder, lovingly... and trying to engage hubs in an active conscious participation in his existence as it is right now, and finding a way for him to do more than "exist". I had an opportunity to let brother know that the last 2 "daily life activities" are on a downhill slide right now, too. Mostly because of loss of muscle mass, and a dependency/critical need for O2. Conquering the cancer itself, may not "cure" this.

So, on the one hand I'm trying to sell "hope" - which requires the appearance of belief in same (which leads to a bit of intentional denial). On the other hand, DAMN; he's gone downhill in a maserati bucket and he's truly not processing or adding up what all his experience right now, means. My doc friend put up with me last night, and showed me exactly where I am right now in those stages of grief. The dance I'm doing to get hubs to "come around" to where I can talk to him, at least... is keeping me in that bargaining stage. And with my natural avoidance of grief and anger, together... well it literally feels like I'm "wrapped too tight" and the internal pressure builds & builds & builds... until it all bursts out. Hubs and I; our relationship is grounded at the Twiggy level. He had as much to do with helping me resolve that old mess, as the therapist did. That's where we actually "played" like two kids.

As much as grief has been a constant companion, it seems like, in my life -- this is different. It's like losing Twiggy; when I had to "put her in the box" for "later". For want of a better description. Or half my brain. The intensity is like ice-cold steel that burns with the heat of the sun. I probably shouldn't have wished to know what the exact point, on an atomic level, feels like between yin and yang. So, when he needs my help and I'm in one these waves, it's hard. I'm afraid he'll want to feel responsible for my tears. And I keep chanting, "it's not your fault"... to no avail. He does what he does anyway. And it's never going to be "ok" that he goes away; even when I get used to it. Even though I am already trying to keep my monkey-mind busy with plans, and lists, and decisions for dealing expeditiously with that transition of when he's really gone. Hell, I'm still crying over losing the dog a couple years ago. From my side of the tears, it's like there's no one there cheering me on to wail, and kick things and "get it all out". And people are just so uncomfortable with leaky eyes and snotty noses and such kind of emotional displays. Puritans. Stoics.

And the hardest thing to control about my "instinct" right now, is projecting on to hubs my own approach to death. My wish to investigate, eye-witness with maximum sensory input, every excruciating detail of the process and to reflect on it, in an attempt to understand... the mystery. I catch it a lot, but not always. (Not that he wouldn't lob it right back me, mind you...) He is the other end of the spectrum, as far as I can observe. Talking about waking up and not knowing if he's really awake. His dreams. And how slowly the realization is percolating in him, that there is no getting "better" from this. As quick as he is, with numbers (still)... this emotional stuff for him is just all fuzzy. Primal. Doesn't really translate into words. But it did translate into a bunny hat. (Remember, when I was dealing with my wayward D?)

I am saving the bunny hat for later.

Maybe I'm making an assumption that he doesn't "know" what's really happening to him. Maybe he just doesn't want - or need - to talk about it like (ahem, "pot calling...") some of us do. Holly and I can go on for days, analyzing and talking about something as small as an ant trying to drag a bigger bug off to share for dinner. And we do until people start to walk away in disgust at our neurotically obsessive curiosity and fascination with a thing that, in the scope of things, really doesn't matter.
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Dr. Richard Grossman

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Re: PR's new saga...
« Reply #46 on: October 26, 2015, 11:22:18 AM »
Hi PR,

I asked some colleagues whether they could recommend any other good books on grieving beyond the Kubler-Ross, but no one could come up with one.  If I hear of another, I’ll let you know.  Thinking of you,

Richard

sKePTiKal

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Re: PR's new saga...
« Reply #47 on: October 27, 2015, 07:20:22 AM »
Thank you, Dr. G!

I'm starting to notice some neuro issues; minor right now - I had to check twice that I was seeing what I thought I was seeing - and then he said last night that when I wake him, it takes him a long time to decide which world he's in... which one he really is living in. He's seeing himself as 2 people, too: the one guy with lung cancer and the other with COPD... which was sort of odd. I expected him to say, the "me with a body" and the "me that is, without a body". I told him so. Not sure what he's puzzling out there, but at least he stopped kicking himself for waiting so long to find out what was wrong.

I may have mentioned, a time or two ( :D ) that he doesn't like me to go off and do things without him and the heartburn that causes me, since there is always a list of things to do. It came up when I started going to tai chi, 2 nights a week. And the "poor me" face he put on about me doing things for myself that didn't involve him... even not eating until I got home. This has escalated into, where I'm bustling around or sitting in the same room with him - if I am not directly engaging him - he feels as though he can't approach me, speak to me, ask for anything. Even after being told directly that he is my #1 priority right now - no matter what it is. If I work outside or downstairs, I'm limiting that time to an hour or two -- but then I'm coming back to the kinda guilt trip of "I missed you", "I was lonely".

As if he doesn't exist outside of me. Outside of the context of that relationship.

I never could find a way to explain to him, adequately - that it was OK for him to have friends I don't hang out with, or interests he pursued without me. In fact, he seemed to react to that idea like it was a threat to him.

It seems like some of this is at work in what he's trying to process right now. I'm just fumbling around trying to understand what is in his head, that he's not trying - at all - to follow the instructions and recommendations of the docs. Just after being told to drink 3 bottles of water a day, and more at night, to keep from dehydrating (which he was doing, pretty much)... he cut that down to 1 bottle. After being told that protein shakes were essential to keep calories going in, to prevent going past the tipping point of weight loss - he sat there in front of me and lied about being willing to drink ensure or boost; when I contradicted that statement - his excuse was I bought the wrong kind and it didn't taste good.

His brother made an excellent broccoli and cheese soup, full of creamy base and pureed. About the consistency of the chocolate instant breakfast he does like. He took a couple spoonfuls and was "done". This is why I think there's a strong subconscious thing going on -- it's not like him to say one thing and do another so completely opposite. Or something bio-neuro, as a result of the combination of everything.

It's been a struggle to get him to take the nystatin for thrush, on time. Instead of 4x a day, we seem to only manage 3 - plus a fluconazole. It did look like it had begun to clear up, then last night it looked like it was getting worse again. Hubs choked on his nighttime pill, trying to swallow - said it felt like it was stuck in his throat - but for some reason, he kept on drinking water. Like his auto-reflexes misfired. Timing and coordination was off.

Anyway, that's what I'm trying to sort out and since no one can give me an answer about what to watch for, or when to call the doc - I'm trying to figure that out myself. If the thrush is no better today, I may call anyway. That's >5 days of heavy treatment for it.

As for me, I've decided under the circumstances it's probably a carte blanche card to just go ahead and indulge my emotions as they come up. Then, get right back at whatever I'm trying to accomplish. I'm trying not to think too far ahead, but I am sorting out how I feel about some major changes, in what-if scenarios. I have a phone number for respite care... which is looking kind of attractive. Hubs' D will be here this weekend.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

lighter

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Re: PR's new saga...
« Reply #48 on: October 27, 2015, 02:54:37 PM »
Amber:

I want to echo gently what Hops said.....

it may be time to call Hospice, and get some help.

You can let hubs know that it doesn't mean you're giving up.... it means you need help right now.  Hospice services can be called off if he starts eating... they WILL be called off if he starts eating, gaining weight and feeling better in fact.   Maybe he'll be motivated to start eating more?

They can help you navigate the meds, baths, symptoms...... the right people can be deeply comforting, IME.

Lighter




Hopalong

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Re: PR's new saga...
« Reply #49 on: October 27, 2015, 03:19:17 PM »
Ahhhh, (((((((((((((((((((((((Amber)))))))))))))))))))))))).

I think you spotted something that may be adding to your own suffering (secondary to your grief), and it makes perfect sense (we all see the world through our own glasses):

Quote
the hardest thing to control about my "instinct" right now, is projecting on to hubs my own approach to death. My wish to investigate, eye-witness with maximum sensory input, every excruciating detail of the process and to reflect on it, in an attempt to understand...

Everything you describe about his passivity or lack of rational/logical actions (if he did this, that would get better, etc...) could be due to brain involvement or other neuro issues. But it might equally be about his own nature becoming kind of dreamy at this point. He may hear perfectly well these reams of instructions and advice...but have begun to just let go. His body and brain might be telling him, well, we could Big Fight all this, which is misery and exhaustion, or we could....float.

He doesn't have to rationally acknowledge anything, to get where he's going. And maybe he senses how far along his process is, and disengaging as much as he can protects him from increased anxiety. I guess my point is, the knowledge seeking may and does comfort you. But it sounds as though he's really not much interested in all of that any more. My father was content to just be, wasting, with music he loved and kind touch. We just switched our focus from rescue to comfort.

You can be right and correct and accurate and rational...and he's maybe floating. Follow some instructions, blow off others, eat/don't eat...he just might be beyond really thinking all these things are that important.

I watched the wasting, too. That's so hard. The visual of the person you love reduced to bone and barely any flesh is primally wrenching. You can see how their bodies are consuming themselves.

My Dad, during his last weeks, was very peaceful. Hospice helped us all climb out of denial and frantically trying to fight off death. So all of a sudden, sad as I was, it turned out my only real job was to meet my Dad where he was, and stop trying to get him to come back to me. He was floating away and he needed to.

I'm so very  sorry for the grief, anxiety, anticipating of loss, which must be devastatingly painful for you, Amber.

You ARE going to be okay. You are going to be okay. And, hardly least--you are doing a WONDERFUL job and should regret absolutely nothing.

I hope you can be kind to yourself and also float a little too. In the present moment.

The crises passed with my father when we stopped thinking of what he was going through as a crisis.
I know if I couldn't breathe I wouldn't want to linger. Eating if it hurt wouldn't be worth it. I'd probably be getting
around to (even if I didn't/couldn't verbalize it) accepting that my body was now on a journey something like
labor, and I was just a speck on that great natural wave. Eventually, acceptance does bring peace.

Much love and comfort,
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Hopalong

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Re: PR's new saga...
« Reply #50 on: October 27, 2015, 03:37:42 PM »
And here's a book that looks helpful, though it may help you more than Hubs, if he's not well enough to read or to focus on listening.
Can't hurt to accept the comfort of it anyway--your poor heart is hurting as much as his.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Art-Dying-Persons-Facing/dp/0312167768

love
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

sKePTiKal

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Re: PR's new saga...
« Reply #51 on: October 30, 2015, 08:23:47 AM »
Hops, that's it. Bullseye again.

I think we might both be in the "bargaining" stage of K-R's definitions of the process. The truth is, that at one point, in my struggle to even get him to go to a doc and find out what was wrong I blurted out: "I just want you to know, that if your intention to just die on the couch as a way out of putting up with me, I think it's a really shitty way to leave me". It was a mean thing to say, to someone I knew was sick, even then. I was trying to be funny, but it still doesn't come out that way. But I wasn't reaching him, even then - if he wouldn't get help for him, then do it for me.

And looking back at that, I really think that's what he wanted to just drift away on the couch. I also asked who I should call if I couldn't wake him - 911 or the morgue, in that stage of things. He didn't want to be part of this "science experiment". I asked him, after he got home from the hospital, if he really wanted to go through what we both know his mom did: the daily trips for radiation plus add in chemo and the multiplying collection of drugs and fixes for side effects. I periodically remind him he doesn't have to treat it, but here is what you're looking at. His response is, that once he decided to go to the doc he'd see the decision and the process to the end. I'm going to try to convince him that if it gets to be too much -- he doesn't HAVE to. He doesn't have to worry about anyone else - or their feelings - just him. He's allowed to change his mind. He does realize that everything that's been done in treatment -- has made him feel worse than he did before that Tuesday, 6 weeks ago.

He is now reducing how much water he drinks. Even though he knows that's going to mess with his pulse rate & BP, rationally. Yesterday, he had a bathroom accident right before we were going to leave for the dr. appt. Subconsciously, he doesn't want to go through this. He's fighting it on so many levels. Time to tell him, I'll be OK -- sad, but OK -- and give him permission to go and skip the next level torture regime. HE gets to decide; not the doctors, not me... just HIM. I don't want to see him suffer, just because he thinks that's what will make me happy - to fight this, and suffer through it, on the unknown amount of chance that he'll be OK. The docs aren't saying whether this is worth it. I keep rephrasing the question, to no avail. The new one just said that every little bit they could shrink the tumor would improve his breathing.

Yes, I know they are trying to manage expectations and gauging emotional reaction and trying to control the process too. But someone has to be honest about a prognosis here, pretty soon. I don't see a money back guarantee if they're simply treating him, because this is all they know how to do... when they really don't see much chance of him improving much. I'll try to talk to him again today. My head is clearer about where we are in all this. I keep looking for what is the KINDEST thing for him. And I'm going to have to up my organization of all the drugs; when to take them; and appts; and when in that schedule I have a minute or two for myself.

My kitty knows. She hasn't asked Daddy to play since he got home and she'll come across the back of the couch and just sniff him... and then curl up next to me somewhere. If I were superstitious, I'd think this has been a really bad place for me given all the losses: Jean, the dog, Holly's two cats... but then, they were old have lived good lives, and it was their time. It seems too soon for hubs -- but that's just my selfish desire to keep him around. I don't think he wants to be this sick for a long time. And I don't get to decide anyway.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

Hopalong

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Re: PR's new saga...
« Reply #52 on: October 30, 2015, 11:48:54 AM »
(((((((((((PR)))))))))))))100

Yeah. Just giving him ALL the power and following HIS lead about everything, will probably relieve you both.

You mention "telling" "convincing" "explaining" and "reminding..."

How exhausting for you to remain teacher/leader/coach. And, in the big picture...how fruitless.

Just comfort. Just company. Tiger Wife retires. Kitty Wife.
Sit in sun. Breathe. Purr some.

Present present present present...

Whatever small tasks you gotta do, you gotta do.
And whatever you can do for his comfort, gotta do.

He will manage the rest. He can manage his own decisions (even the floaty passive ones)
and it may be easier for him to do if he's not forced to dialogue about it. The mystery is
beyond words and of course you don't want him to feel guilty.

(Your previous anger at him for non-compliance is totally human and natural. Many people feel
temporarily angry at a dying loved one. They're abandoning us! Then rally back to the present.)

But all the strategizing and researching and hoping for better clarity from docs, feh.
Some can, but mostly they are taught not to give specific prognoses (but you and Hubs
already have some intuitions going about that). So you get this-and-that,
like a mechanic who looks at your rusted Corolla and muses about a Maserati
he saw once that was built on a Toyota frame. He (they) mean no harm, just
aren't comfortable saying, Sorry, lady. It's done.

In my experience, asking doc/s directly about, do you think it's time for Hospice,
will get the answer you're searching for...in an indirect way. Hubs doesn't have to hear it
right away. (I remember my Dad poignantly asking the Hospice lady who came to orient
us..."Does anyone ever, ummm, graduate from Hospice?" He meant get out of the
prognosis of course. But her answer was calm and clear. It is about living your best life
for as long as you can. Our focus is on the quality of your life, making it good. (Something
like that, but better said. She never used the d-word.)

Really glad you're thinking of K-R (I heard her talk once, am grateful for the revolution
in end of life care and attitudes she began).

Hospice will be a revelation of peace for you. I imagine your shoulders
will drop about a foot after their first visit. Hubs' too.

Much love and comfort (for what cannot fully be comforted)--
Hops
« Last Edit: October 30, 2015, 04:29:23 PM by Hopalong »
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Hopalong

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Re: PR's new saga...
« Reply #53 on: October 30, 2015, 11:57:39 AM »
PS, if you'll forgive my advising...

One suggestion would be to try to set aside a desire to direct him to Make A Statement About His Decision to Keep Fighting or To Stop.

He might not be in a Make A Statement Out Loud place.

And being pressed to might increase his stress.

Whereas if you let him avoid, float, not engage with subject, deal any mild passive way he seems inclined to...I think it'll all be a lot more peaceful for him.

Not for you. Damn it. SO hard to "turn off" your go-to skills and approaches.

Seriously. That is a huge and loving sacrifice on your part.

much love again
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

lighter

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Re: PR's new saga...
« Reply #54 on: October 30, 2015, 12:33:44 PM »
((Skep:))

::sending prayers for Amber, M and family..... lighting lovely cyber candles,  preparing tea and roasting chickens with you in mind::

Lighter




Dr. Richard Grossman

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Re: PR's new saga...
« Reply #55 on: October 30, 2015, 02:59:46 PM »
Hi PR,

Just to let you know, I posted (in a new topic) an essay on grieving sent to me by one of my dear patients whose 27 year old son died suddenly, unexpectedly, and tragically.  Not a book, but still this may resonate and be helpful…

http://www.voicelessness.com/disc3//index.php/topic,10377.0.html

Hugs,

Richard

Hopalong

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Re: PR's new saga...
« Reply #56 on: October 30, 2015, 04:22:41 PM »
PS--I commented on the article Richard posted.
Hope you forgive me if I need forgiving.

You know the Hopalong mouth.

love...
Hops
« Last Edit: October 30, 2015, 04:24:58 PM by Hopalong »
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

sKePTiKal

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Re: PR's new saga...
« Reply #57 on: November 01, 2015, 07:36:45 AM »
PS, if you'll forgive my advising...

One suggestion would be to try to set aside a desire to direct him to Make A Statement About His Decision to Keep Fighting or To Stop.

He might not be in a Make A Statement Out Loud place.

And being pressed to might increase his stress.

Whereas if you let him avoid, float, not engage with subject, deal any mild passive way he seems inclined to...I think it'll all be a lot more peaceful for him.

Not for you. Damn it. SO hard to "turn off" your go-to skills and approaches.

Seriously. That is a huge and loving sacrifice on your part.

much love again
Hops

Yup Yup Yup. This is what the situation calls for Hops. And I'm having Twiggy-tantrum about having already done so much, I don't think there's anything else left to give...   DEEEEEP breath..... rinse, repeat... until there is.

Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

lighter

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Re: PR's new saga...
« Reply #58 on: November 06, 2015, 12:11:17 AM »
How are you doing, PR?

Lighter

Hopalong

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Re: PR's new saga...
« Reply #59 on: November 06, 2015, 09:26:24 AM »
Present too, PR. Helping Lighter make you soup.

Thinking several days means things might have moved forward.

You are going to be okay.
It's childbirth...at the other end. Mystery.

Much peace, peace
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."