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"You’re so vain, you probably think this song is about you..."

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Hopalong:
I dunno if it's Libertarian or Ayn Rand or if I'm way off the mark in the sources of your reasoning, Mud. Are
they pretty big influences for you?

I'm not great at tit-for-tat argument (not in the "fight" sense but in the debate sense), but I do disagree with
the drift.

Regarding fear of being forced to obey or conform or not have the individual's right as primary imperative
in all circumstances... That's not what I was talking about. Who's got the most power or might impose some
if I'm not hypervigilant.

For me, it's more about a voluntary spiritual recognition of obligation to the vulnerable, to the other. Triggered
by cultivating empathy instead of walling it out. What I mean is that rather than, for example, model charity because
it's a religious rule, I'd like to model charity because my heart is moved to. In that sense, the training stuck. But
I only listened to the good parts. WWJD.

That's what I took away from my childhood religion. It wasn't about fences between individuals and
the world but about welcoming the messy, complicated world in...and holding it close.

With a whole lot of compassion and renewing forgiveness. Necessary (for me).

Also too, I need to remember not to take everything personally. I often flunk.

Hops

mudpuppy:

--- Quote ---For me, it's more about a voluntary spiritual recognition of obligation to the vulnerable, to the other.
--- End quote ---

That's not collective guilt, responsibility or anything else.
It's exactly what I've been saying.

mud

Hopalong:
Yebbut.
I DO believe there is such a thing as collective responsibility.
I also think that's different from an individual being forced to feel guilt. (You feel what you feel. Or not.)


--- Quote ---I just wish that men would collectively stand up for women and abused children. I wish that men would speak up when they see another man behaving badly to a woman or to a child. If this is man bashing ... well it is not meant to be.
--- End quote ---

If this happened, routinely, the world would be different. I disagree that cultivating a collective sense of responsibility in our culture would in any way absolve an individual from full responsibility for her/his actions.

Evil flourishes when the good do nothing.

So, if it's uncomfortable that a "class" of those who are (more often) abused asked those who (more often) have more power in the culture to step up to speak out and to protect them (even when as sterling individuals they feel they have no connection to others' bad behavior)...gosh. It's uncomfortable.

Freedom means my freedom to swing ends where your nose begins (sic). But freedom doesn't include freedom from feeling emotionally uncomfortable. Being asked to change is uncomfortable. It's any individual's choice whether or not to not hear others' pleas for help. Or to risk discomfort to advocate for the more vulnerable. Of course. But morally, whether or not they're off the hook is another question.

Personally, I run hard to avoid being judged or feeling guilty. But it sometimes catches up with me anyway. And that's fine if it inspires positive change. If it just makes me angry, that doesn't help anyone.

https://xyfeminist.wordpress.com/the-male-privilege-list/

love
Hops

Hopalong:
This is kind of off topic, but maybe not entirely.

The covenant group I lead hosted dinner last night for 40 homeless men (we do it annually for two weeks, in tandem with other churches of different faiths, including the Islamic society--some years we host women but in the cold season there are more men on the street). As it always does, it broke my heart again (I figure one's heart needs regular re-breaking). The ones I was sitting with were kind, polite, and so broken. No dental care, some obvious mental illness, others just pale, weary. Broken by the world, by bad luck, by choices, by horrible upbringings, by addictions. My heart breaks for them every time and taking their hands and eating together and just listening is all I know how to do directly.

One young veteran put his head on the table and was just helpless. The other men were like father birds. They put arms around him, helped us serve him, were so protective.

I think although it may not always show on the outside, like these men, many women feel nearly homeless in our world, because of what systemic--make that global--sexism actually does in their lives. It starts young and just pounds at you from the culture year after year. (As it also does its harm to boys, pounding away at them year after year, training them to dominate while offering their bodies up as sacrifices.)

We're all the same in that we need each other. We need protective arms and raised voices and empathy and a willingness to imagine the other more than judge the other.

It's really hard. I had a bad brother and a cold mother but a kind father. I was very lucky in my father.

Just rambling...
Hops

sea storm:
Fight like a butterfly.... that is what you do, Hops. So well said and not attacking. This is apparently a very hot topic. Has the concept of paternalism and sexism not swept past some people or held them down in boulderbooted submission. Well, happy days for them.

I don't think anger is the answer for anything and I hold back my lower nature when possible. I try to study Buddhism and breathe into the sorrow and anger and disappointment. I see the men who are broken too. They are like all men and kind of beautiful in their humility and kindness. Not barbarians but brothers.  Whether we are our brothers keepers has been debated for centuries. I take care of my side of the street and what you do on yours is your business until I see a vulnerable person unjustly hurt and then I become involved and present. If our brother is behaving badly a word or a nod is a good idea. Takes enormous courage and will not win me any popularity contests.

Cripes, I seem to have offended Mud greatly. Stirred it up. Not sorry.  One can only hope for the blossom to follow.

Sea storm

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