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"You’re so vain, you probably think this song is about you..."

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Hopalong:
Ahhh, Mud is my friend. And a good man.
I only wish him butterflies.

(And now I won't talk about Mud in the third person any more...)

love
Hops

mudpuppy:
  The thing I object to is what seems to me poor reasoning or thoughts that are not actually thought through.
It is one thing to say we each have a moral responsibility to speak up for right and to defend the defenseless.
It is quite another to assume that simply by virtue of belonging to a particular group I am partially responsible for the misbehavior of others in that group. If I am partially responsible then the only logical inference is I am partially the cause; I am partly guilty of the crimes. It  was stated that if I am not sufficiently vociferous in condemning certain behavior then I am partly responsible for other more foul behavior by that guy. The obvious implication (in fact it was fairly explicit, not implicit) is I am likewise partly to blame for child molestations and rapes.
  Doesn't seem like it would take Sherlock Holmes to figure out why that is offensive.
  That's the kind of logic which got innocent black men lynched when some white woman was raped; they all do it, they all look alike, they all think alike. How is it any different than the guilt by association and stereotyping Jews have experienced for centuries? All Jews are dirty money grubbers and if there are ones who aren't, they're guilty for not straightening out the money grubbers.
  Now, men do lots more bad things than women, but  plenty of women do plenty of bad things. Are all women responsible for the women who molest kids or rob banks or murder 14 people in cold blood?
  The worst thing about collective guilt is it necessarily relieves the prime movers of some of the blame, and what could be better for an abuser than to be able to play the victim and rationalize their actions? My mommy made me do it. My daddy made me do it. The devil made me do it. Society made me. Other men weren't supportive enough so I just had to bury the bodies in the crawlspace.
  That entire line of thought is not a blossom to bloom it's destructive blame shifting and enabling bs.
  It's perfectly captured in Only a Lad by Oingo Boingo. Look up the lyrics and you'll see the wages of collective guilt.

mud

Hopalong:
Hmmm. Thanks, Mud. I'm getting a little clearer and also bumping into the limitations (and gifts) of language.

I think what I me myself mean by "collective responsibility" is NOT in a legal sense, or that I as a part of a group must be held accountable by external forces or opinions for individuals' behavior.

What I mean, in this instance, by "responsibility" is the kind of "it takes a village" view of the world. It's a belief, not a law with force attached. Because I have freedom of belief and freedom of opinion and thought.

I believe I have a moral responsibility to the vulnerable (which I do and do not act bravely about). I have absolutely ZERO power to require/force/insist/demand that another person AGREE WITH or SHARE my belief about group moral responsibility. I don't even imagine I can.

But I do have that belief. Germans really have struggled with that one. But they've done so so much to change their culture after walking into the consequences of their collective moral irresponsibility (imo).

I believe that as human beings we have a collective responsibility TO and FOR each other. Nobody can impose collective human guilt. But I'm not talking about guilt. Or judgement. I'm just saying I believe as a species we have a moral responsibility as a species to and for each other (and to animals and the earth). But I'm totally aware that beliefs vary.

I am soooooooooooo offended by sexism and various assumptions about many things. But over the years I've come to be a lot less frequently offended. I think because, for me, choosing to take offense is choosing to stay on the surface of an interaction. Whereas if I go, damn, that offends me...etc etc and then STILL try to return myself to imagining the other's experience...I wind up feeling more connected to the "offender" (or at least creating more space for the possibility of connection) than if I stick to my feeling offended.

When I do stick to it, I observe in myself that I perceive a big and persistent wall between myself and the "offender." Whereas if I let my initial offended response happen as is natural but then allow it to move on through me and not get stuck as a do-or-die I gotta-win, I gotta-be-right position.... then I create space to compassionately (when I can) try again to imagine the other's own experience (which often turns out to be very helpful in showing me how and why they came to believe the thing they believe). When I can do that compassionately, then I don't gotta stay mad.

love
Hops

mudpuppy:
I have yet to see a village I want raising my kid.

mud

ann3:

--- Quote ---That entire line of thought is not a blossom to bloom it's destructive blame shifting and enabling bs.
--- End quote ---

Brilliant Mud!  A voice of logic & reason.

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