Heist on Something....

[sKePTiKal]

Given his personal interaction with that one person he mentioned, I'll bet he discerns between actual "people" - and the stereotype cartoonization of various groups, or classes of people. One reason humans stereotype in the first place is to over-generalize and dehumanize. Even the most self-aware of us do this from time to time - and NO, it's not a good thing about us. But it is short-hand, for quickly understanding something important about that group. Like, tech/professional, CEO level, powerful, wealthy white men, for instance. Sorry; truly I am... but you keep bringing it up, so is that in itself something you're wary of... and how many have you known personally? (Please don't count former N-boss; he's in his own category!! LOL) I know how scrupulously conscientious you are about not participating in things you despise, that "people" do... and how you tend to fall on being empathetic to each and every one. So, I figure you've already checked that about yourself 26 times already.

There is as much peer, and media/social pressure these days to stereotype as there is anything else you can name. And we do, all of us, fall prey to the pressure from time to time, in insidiously subtle ways. I catch myself a LOT (and Holly waits to pounce on me if I don't).

For all I know, maybe he was poking fun at the obvious stereotype in the memes. Your plan sounds sensible to me. If I were in your shoes, I'd simply point out that I'm really sick of all the mean - and pointless, except to shame - so-called humor out there. No matter it's viewpoint. Much as I was a fan of Oliphant and some political cartoonists - the modern version leans a lot more vile - and I've had my fill of it too. I don't share those things; it's like spreading gossip or just talking nasty behind someone's back. I don't like encouraging others to do so, either... or tacitly approving of it. So I occasionally take people for task for it online. (Not that anyone listens to me...)

So, it sounds like - all thinking about the relationship aside - you're FEELING a bit more relaxed & comfortable with him. That's sounding pretty good, despite all the other stuff.
What did Gramma always say? If you can't find something nice to say - don't say anything at all! There's a lot of good advice for modern society in Gramma's old sayings. LOL.

[Twoapenny]

Hops, I'm kind of wondering as well if he might be at the Asperger's end of the autistic spectrum?  I'm kind of always hyper alert to signs because of my son (and to be honest you can see signs in most people if you look hard enough) but it did cross my mind that the sort of misplaced humour that you've mentioned can sometimes be an Aspie trait?  Along with the concern about what the dress code is, that there might be people at the party that he doesn't know (so he's assuming you'd struggle with that because he might) - they're the kind of social cues and situations that some people on the autistic spectrum struggle with.  It might be that he doesn't really get the 'jokes' but that he's learnt them (and by that I mean someone else has told them to him and said they're funny so he's accepted that because he doesn't really get it?)  Does that make sense?  With his engineering, uber logical mindset it might be that his social side is a bit off kilter (and yours is very finely tuned so you're probably picking up on more than some people would anyway).  I just thought I'd throw that in in case he's just kind of copying something he's been told is funny because his funny bone isn't highly developed?  Maybe after time your kind of humour will rub off on him and he'll start to mirror that rather than these sort of old boy's networks comments that he's maybe picked up through work or at the golf course?  Just another possibility (as if you didn't have enough to think about) xx

[Hopalong]

Thanks, Amber. And busted again. I do have some stereotypical fears of powerful white male businessmen and how they operate in the world. Or judgments that can be knee-jerk and unfair. Gimme a Warren Buffet or a Bill Gates any day; they're welcome to the wealth because look what they do with it! But some others..... My first boyfriend's family owned a summer home (450 acres) now owned by the president's family. My first love relationship was spent in an absurdly wealthy environment where I met the family's friends, most of whom were uber-CEO white males. They were personally charming. I remember bf's father telling me one morning (at their "regular" house, a huge pile on the grounds of a NY-area country club), "Hey, c'mon over here and meet my neighbor, Joe Hellman!" Turned out to be the Hellman of Hellman's Mayonnaise. He was very pleasant to me. His house was insane. I got used to being around it. But always, secretly inside my odd little head, the outsider...the poet...absorbing it all from a very different sensibility. (I broke up with bf later and my college pals were horrified that I "turned my back on millions...")

The county where I live is among the wealthiest in this country, papered with retired CEOs and many uber-rich. I have known a few and observed many in the community.

My anxiety about it comes directly from gut-level feminism that began (consciously) at 16 when my state university, run by an all-male (and of course, all white) wealthy board including CEOs ...by policy refused to allow me (or any girl) to attend as a liberal arts undergraduate because I was female. It changed later, but that painful awakening changed my view of how the world works, how skewed and wrong male domination/entitlement was/is. (Black males were allowed in first, a couple of years later, they let women in.) I recognized that sexism was exactly the same as racism, and my sense of solidarity with all oppressed people, and loathing of injustice, kicked in. In all the decades since, nothing has shown me that hyper-masculine (adolescent masculine) mostly-white culture in its pursuit of power, wealth and domination hasn't destroyed the environment, broken the vulnerable, and allowed the retrograde back-swing into worsened racism and misogyny that has been horrifyingly on parade in the last few years. Some very close to my door. It's toxic, terrifying and spreading. Oh, those handsome Aryans. But hardworking men now unemployed, sliding down and desperate for a break? I'm grieving for them big time. It's not their fault, what they hoped in.

I love men. I'm straight as a stick. I have loved some ambitious type A+ men. As individuals, I can love anyone. But as the culture, and government are and have behaved, I have become very convinced that having 90% of power in male (here, mostly white wealthy male now) hands is very bad for humanity. For all of us.

I am eager to go back to Oslo to see my friend and his wife. Norway is the most egalitarian country in the world, gender wise. (It's also pretty homogeneous so doesn't have to deal with as much tribal conflict as our diverse culture does.) But Norway also ranks over and over as the happiest country in the world. That's real despite their recent struggles with the far-right anti-immigrant movement in Europe and that ghastly terrorist on the island a few years ago. And I don't believe the happiness is unrelated to their feminist (egalitarian) culture. It's not a coincidence. A feminist culture is humanist and better for everyone and they've been smart enough to figure that out. The CEO at my former job married a Norwegian engineer and told me they would time children so their babies are born there, because it's the kind of society they believe all children should live in. The vast majority of Norwegian men there are just as committed to true gender equality as women are. That's unimaginable, here.

To them, Harvey Weinstein sneering and laughing at Hillary Clinton would be unimaginably unfunny, given the reality of his vicious behavior, as would be the "Detroit bumper sticker" and its vicious dehumanizing of the disenfranchised. They and many others around the world are shocked, horrified and saddened about the infections of sexism and racism that have burst again to the surface in our country that they have for so long loved and seen as the light of the world.

It's so hard for me not to take it personally now and then. I know I should always have the long view and remember it's not about me. I do try. But I really love this country. Pretty much love every human being, in the abstract anyway.

The truth about me though is that when I see institutional and systemic cruelty and injustice, growing up in the South and living in the world as it is...I don't see those policies being defended by many who are other than white, wealthy and male. (And overall, earning 30% more than women with equally significant responsibilities.) Things are changing, slowly, and I still have to hope for the better.

And I just have to hope that those little B "issues" don't have any connection at all with him being indifferent about systemic cruelty and injustice that I see as though my eyes have been scalded.

I read so much my eyes ache (not always in my bubble) and more and more it seems to be coming to the surface that many more people on all sides are actually seeing -- this male-skewed, white-skewed system is not working. We've got to include and respect and be compassionate to the "other", whether they're female, PoC, LGBTQ, immigrant, whatever. We've got to eagerly welcome them into leadership. If we don't, we are just going to carry on trashing each other, suppressing, shooting, warring, imprisoning, despoiling. And sneering.

I don't sneer. I do lead with my heart most of the time. And I am with B, as best I can. We've talked twice today and I'm eager to see him again. Can't wait to put my arms around him because there's something happening that is tender and good.

Just have to talk to him about the damn images he sent, and you have suggested the perfect way to do that.

Thanks, hon. Forgive the ranting. I'm trying not to pollute us but this relationship is making me face how the personal is political (remember that 60s chestnut?). People matter more to me than winning but it's been heartbreaking to see our country lose so much because of that kind of mob hatred. But as Dr. Phil would say, do you wanna be happy or do you wanna be right? Sometimes I'm not sure.

I'm not a mob, just me. And I'm so lucky that you listen. I truly appreciate your perspectives and your clarity. The way you articulate your thoughtfulness expands mine, and knowing you expands my heart.

love,
Hops

[Hopalong]

Tupp, that is a brilliant question!
I don't know, but something about his social stuff does seem to carry a suggestion of faintly aspie-unaware traits. Who knows if he'd be officially at a first rung of spectrum, but it's still such a good reminder of how diverse we are. I am often shocked by how biological so many things can be, and it's often true.

So maybe that is really part of it:

in case he's just kind of copying something he's been told is funny because his funny bone isn't highly developed?

Your insights always take me to such a humane place. THANK YOU. You keep coming up with compassionate, intimate curiosity about what makes someone tick, what subtle streams of biology, brain, surroundings, experiences...might make them the way they are. In the shadings and nuances, not just the big boxes I bang into. And whether these kinds of questions are spot on or off base, just wanting to know the answers, wanting to see the explanations, is kindness.

Do you know that the #1 thing I hate about death isn't dying, it's not finding out what happens! I want --crave-- to know what we learn about people in the future, about what makes/shapes/hurts/heals us. I want to be a fly on the wall in 200 years. Well, a fly that can read....

In doing that, you are offering light. Light into places where I'm fearful, and your perspectives offer me over and over a reminder that there is cold, harsh, unforgiving light...and then there's warm, gentle light that comes from a generous heart and expansive mind. Like Tupp light.

Thank you. It amazes me how this kind of thing comes so often from someone who's had it so hard. You are such a strong human being. Strong hearted. Compared to what you've dealt with I've been swimming in an ocean of fortune. It's not fair but I can see the real riches glowing in your life. I think they're spiritual and ever expanding.

love xxxx
Hops

[Hopalong]

Hope I have the nerve to share this article with B.
(Head shoots back down into sand....)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2017/12/29/a374a268-ea6d-11e7-8a6a-80acf0774e64_story.html?hpid=hp_no-name_opinion-card-d%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.2bb8fdb67346

[Twoapenny]

Hope I have the nerve to share this article with B.
(Head shoots back down into sand....)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2017/12/29/a374a268-ea6d-11e7-8a6a-80acf0774e64_story.html?hpid=hp_no-name_opinion-card-d%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.2bb8fdb67346

It might be a good way to discuss race issues (that I know are important to you) - without leading the conversation - to get an idea of whether he does have very different views on race to yourself, or whether he just has an off sense of humour.  It would be interesting to see what he thinks without you prompting him (by pre-empting it with "I didn't like the racial stereotypes in those jokes you sent me) to get a good idea of what he really thinks about these issues - or if he even thinks about them at all?  It's probably a good barometer of his feelings on this matter (it reminds me a bit of those essay questions in college that were simply "x finds humour in y, but is it all it seems?  Discuss").

I get what Skep is saying about not dismissing people with different views to our own or small aspects of someone's personality not being a barrier to them being great for us in other ways - but equally I am quite sensitive to that subtle sort of discrimination that seeps through society and it bothers me when people, at a very fundamental level, feel that some people are more important than others.  It's all about perspective, isn't it, what are the deal breakers, what is just a mildly irritating point as oppose to a humdinger that will make life together intolerable in time.  So yes, I think it would be interesting to send to B with a note saying, "I found this interesting - what do you think?" - and then see what happens? xx

[sKePTiKal]

O/T musings...

I was "there" and I was of an age to be "aware" when the bra burnings happened. And I (actually Twiggy) thought it was the best thing since sliced Wonder bread. So, over the course of my childhood I went from "girls don't belong in Dad's garage, learning to weld" to seeing it become possible for women to someday be taken seriously as soldiers. (Took the rest of my life for that happen - and I'm NOT happy about HOW that's been done, but it has happened.)

But I also saw how a new cage was built around women with feminism... and what it has done to men.

I was "there" and "aware" when the Civil Rights act was passed -- and for the horrors that happened after. A kid that age isn't supposed to ask the kinds of questions I asked - and am STILL asking about the human condition/our humanity almost requiring non-perfection; social organization and political systems. I do pass judgement on what has happened in that 40-50 years... with the caveat that not all the evidence is in yet to conclusively "prove" a blessed thing and I think we need to reclaim the ability to say: well that didn't work so well, did it? Maybe we should try something else.

Norway... is the source of my bits of Viking DNA Hops. Shieldmaidens were just as important as the leaders and fighters and explorers. Maybe not as important as the boat builders and farmers. But it is critical to the success of that egalitarian society that women's equality in status didn't come at the expense of MEN'S. (Which is something we see too much of, elsewhere. In order to raise someone up - someone else is getting torn down. That isn't NECESSARY, so why is it happening?)

So, looking at the wide-angle scope of trust issues... I can no longer trust any "ism" to be manna from heaven and perfect. Once the ideas hit the individual human level all kinds of entropic, egoistic and corrupt things can happen to it. I question it with the thoroughness of the Spanish Inquisition. And pick out the genuinely GOOD bits of ideas... dismiss the bad ones... and refuse to accept the whole cocktail of the -ism just because SOME of the ideas are good. I'm selective, I guess.

But like you, I've been picking my way very carefully - to find what I can live with, and manifest myself - from the same life environment events. And we're both stronger for understanding each other's point of view and accepting - and honoring - how we've veered off the main path to individualize our understandings. Women do, do that better than men - in some cases. It's not like a law of nature; there are exceptions.

As for the CEO culture... (we really should have that beer in front of a cozy fire...)

my bestie from high school days grew up with those advantages - while I was the rebel, disreputable, outspoken (go figure), pioneer carving out my own path. Her mother absolutely hated me. But at this stage of life - our statuses have flipped. The beach neighborhood was full of retired admirals, CEOs of defense contractors and major corporations. Mike always joked that one of the first things we should've done when we moved in, was put a car up on blocks in the front yard. Run up the pirate skull & crossbones... and despite that - he was the status seeker, social schmoozer and thrived on it. I did NOT. After 6 years there, there was only a handful of women that I kinda felt comfortable with and that I didn't completely shock or terrify or confuse. But I did get to know the men - because I was the CEO in our household, liked to talk engineering, strategy & tactics, etc.

They were wary at first, of course. I simply didn't fit into the Southern woman category or corporate wife one either. But I could hold my own socially, as long as it was "guy talk". The stereotypes simply do not hold up at the individual level. Not even with the women. There were only a couple of people that I noticed trying to live up (or is it down?) to their stereotype. Once past the first impressions, everyone was really quite human, usually well-read and intelligent, caring, compassionate and involved. With any "rule" regarding people, yes - there are exceptions.

I think you should worry less about the world B is coming from... and start asking about his personal experience with that world. That will yield a lot more useful information about "who he is"... and help you get past the hurdles of your own pre-conceptions about him and "what he's coming from". It puts you both on equal footing, too. It says your values and way of being in the world and your cumulative experience is DIFFERENT - but just as valid. Yeah, I'm still just as concerned about the joke email as everyone else... and the one making out session too. But there are always going to be awkwardnesses in the "getting to know you" phase. How he explains his motivations... could be important in deciding it's nothing to worry about or that he's hiding something. But I always put more stock in what people do, than what they SAY.

What Lighter said - about enjoying yourself - despite the eventual outcome is a good opportunity to stay grounded. Nothing is serious yet; y'all are just dating and getting to know each other. The trust hasn't been built yet. And this phase gives Hops a chance to get from "dunno" to a baseline of trust - or throwing him back in the pool. Whichever makes sense & feels right at that point in time. LOL.

[Hopalong]

Well lordybove, y'all. He told me he loves me in the middle of a movie tonight.

I feel good. Kind of stunned. Wary of speed but not suspicious of him.
Couldn't say it back as I just can't until I am sure we're solid...not fooling ourselves...and it feels so soon. But he has slowed down, respected the boundaries ever since he said he would.

Yikers.
Yikers.
Yikers.

I'm a little concerned he's going to blurt out a proposal and I'd like him not to, yet. Couldn't say yes this minute, or month. I kidded him about his executive management style (Here is the Goal, the Strategic Plan, the Action Steps...) Kicked him out before midnight, after peeling pooch off his lap.

(OH, and I did bring up the jokes, and he heard me about the Weinstein one being offensive, defending that he'd laughed at another -- didn't seem to tune into its racism really, but being from that area he'd taken it as a funny play on another common sticker that just silhouettes "people on board". Unaware or avoidant answer, imo, but I've never heard him say or do anything directly racist. He said they were sent by a neighbor. He'd mentioned a neighbor who "sees things like I do" so I do feel he's keeping that darker side of himself sequestered. I dunno how serious it is.)

Right now, just trying to take in the new developments this evening. He said we're on the same page about what a "life partner" means (I said, you know what that means for me, and he said, we're on the same page...). So yikers. He wanted to talk about where we'd live because he knows that could be a big situation to solve.

Holy moly. I need to remember who I am, where I am, what I care about. But all in all, yikers.

xo
Hops

[Twoapenny]

Well lordybove, y'all. He told me he loves me in the middle of a movie tonight.

I feel good. Kind of stunned. Wary of speed but not suspicious of him.
Couldn't say it back as I just can't until I am sure we're solid...not fooling ourselves...and it feels so soon. But he has slowed down, respected the boundaries ever since he said he would.

Yikers.
Yikers.
Yikers.

I'm a little concerned he's going to blurt out a proposal and I'd like him not to, yet. Couldn't say yes this minute, or month. I kidded him about his executive management style (Here is the Goal, the Strategic Plan, the Action Steps...) Kicked him out before midnight, after peeling pooch off his lap.

(OH, and I did bring up the jokes, and he heard me about the Weinstein one being offensive, defending that he'd laughed at another -- didn't seem to tune into its racism really, but being from that area he'd taken it as a funny play on another common sticker that just silhouettes "people on board". Unaware or avoidant answer, imo, but I've never heard him say or do anything directly racist. He said they were sent by a neighbor. He'd mentioned a neighbor who "sees things like I do" so I do feel he's keeping that darker side of himself sequestered. I dunno how serious it is.)

Right now, just trying to take in the new developments this evening. He said we're on the same page about what a "life partner" means (I said, you know what that means for me, and he said, we're on the same page...). So yikers. He wanted to talk about where we'd live because he knows that could be a big situation to solve.

Holy moly. I need to remember who I am, where I am, what I care about. But all in all, yikers.

xo
Hops

Well it looks like he read Skep's previous comment that 'nothing is serious yet' and decided to change that.  Yikers indeed!

I don't want to sound like the voice of doom but it seems a bit fast.  As glorious as you are, Hops, I'm always a little concerned by people who fall in love very quickly.  To me it doesn't seem sincere.  There's not enough time to get to know someone - really know someone (as in, are they racist, are they sexist, do they just tell me what I want to hear to move things on more quickly).  I remember, years ago, being heartbroken by yet another perfect guy who'd swept me off my feet, taken me to wonderful places, told me wonderful things - and then just vanished without a bye or leave.  I was crying on the shoulder of a male friend about it and he said that men who come in to your life very quickly tend to leave it again just as fast.  It was good advice and I've heeded it ever since.

I think I'd feel happier (sorry to be blunt, but I feel protective of you and want to lecture you as if I'm your mum ) if the casual racism/sexism had been resolved (he hadn't actually read all the jokes/he doesn't really get 'humour'/he was actually sending it as an example of how easily this sort of thing is joked about).  He did slow down - for about a week, before he sprung "I love you and where shall we live".

I don't feel he's getting you, Hops.  Putting aside racism/sexism type issues, I have friends who I know find certain jokes funny, and who I know would find certain jokes offensive (or just aren't their cup of tea).  He doesn't seem to have that grasp on you, your core values, your fairness and your need for equality and so on.  I get that he's worked in a high powered environment and so has that management thing going on - but you've worked in numerous demanding roles in your life and you've seen the damage that inequality and a very focused, fixed mind set can cause.  Which is why you're so gloriously open and free.

So I would say put the brakes very firmly on.  I get that it's lovely to feel loved - honestly, I truly do.  I am hoping, with every bit of myself, that this will be a good situation for you and one that will bring you much happiness and joy.  But with my sensible hat on you've still only been dating for a few weeks.  You've already had some fairly big red flags come up - in what is generally the honeymoon period in any relationship  It seems to be him constantly trying to move this forward.  It still feels like you're working hard to accommodate him and adjust to his wants, his needs, his timeframe.  Are you comfortable with him seeing your untidy house yet?  Are you happy for him to be there when you have a staying in bed, I want to read on my own day?  He's not said or done anything directly racist but he has been indirectly racist, and defended that, and I think that's something you need to hold a big magnifying glass over.  I'm worried that you're trying to iron out the elements of him that you find unpalatable quickly because he wants to move so fast.  I feel like you're being rushed to make decisions and it's bothering me a bit.

I am sorry to write things that are largely negative because I really do hope that this is all good and everything is glorious but there seems to be a pattern in your posts about him that are up high (lovely night, met friends, did/said something lovely) and then down low (groped me, was rude about the waitress, sent me racist jokes).  There's a sort of roller coaster pattern forming that is concerning me.  Did he tell you he loved you before or after you brought up the jokes?  I think the timing of that might give you a bit more of inclination about the situation.  Again, sorry to sound negative, I don't want to be, but I am worried that this is all happening too fast xx

[Hopalong]

Not to worry, (((((Tupp))))), I am very grateful for your support in my foot staying firmly on the brakes. That's my intent, and though I'm very affected by his declaration I'm wary of its speed for exactly the reasons you cite. I do think he was a little indirect about my reaction to the "jokes" but in person, didn't sense anything uber-ugly bubbling (largely because of his story about the muslim man). Just a blind spot of privilege and context. (He's from the Detroit area and that may have contributed to some cynicism about that "Detroit bumper sticker" image, not that it excuses it.) I have to measure it against what I've seen in person, so far. It's troubling, gives me serious pause, and I'm not done wanting to get a more clear view of what that's about....but it's not full dive, dive! siren yet. Partly because he's respectful and hears me when I challenge him on stuff. Every time, so far.

One thing about character. He was trying to give me a compliment by comparing me to another woman my age (less "attractive" with less exuberant personality kinds of things). I expressed discomfort. He pays attention. He asked, why doesn't this feel like a good compliment to you? I said, it's nice to be valued but I don't feel good inside if I'm being complimented at the expense of another woman. What I told you about how deep my solidarity with women is, because of sexism...that is real. He responded by heartfeltly saying that I am a very good person.

He notices it when I express compassion and he moves closer when I do. My hope is that a superficial right-leaning circle he is in online doesn't have an iron grip on his soul. Hops dunno yet.

He blurted the love declaration after a moving scene in the Churchill movie that we both had the same goose-bump reaction to. It was spontaneous. I sent him a warm email later that I am keeping my foot on the brake because while very moved by what he's offering, I also want to be thoughtful all the way through.

It's pretty amazing and typically Tupp-astute that you used the term "roller coaster." This morning he wrote back: "I think I've been on a bit of an emotional roller coaster, since we met and I seem to over react to positives and negatives in our path.  Your emails often give me a sense of stability and reason."

Anyhow, your motherly warnings and cautions are extremely welcome. I know there's a risk at my age, and after years of loneliness, of flinging caution to the winds. But I won't. If anything I might risk missing out because I let my caution lead too much. Somewhere in the middle, I hope the right knowing will become clear. He IS always a couple steps ahead and urging things forward. That is his issue, his difficulty in containing his impulses while he's swamped with a panicky loneliness.

It's not that he's insincere, I truly feel. Just that he is indeed on a widower's roller coaster and way quicker than I am to think fusing with another woman (me) asap is automatically the right solution. Then again, I've heard many stories about people later in life who waste little time once they think they've found someone. I think the aging, sense of imminent mortality, has something to do with his speed also.

[adding] Forgot to answer your intriguing questions:

Are you comfortable with him seeing your untidy house yet?...
Funny you asked that. Made an intentional decision to not tidy the kitchen, leave an open unloaded dishwasher as it was plus some dirty dishes on counter. Felt fine. He didn't appear to notice (and I didn't care).

Are you happy for him to be there when you have a staying in bed, I want to read on my own day?
Not yet. I'm super protective of my time to myself and privacy. As long as he's pushing the river I'm inclined to stay on the cozy bank by myself. But that could change in time...

Did he tell you he loved you before or after you brought up the jokes?
Before. You said something about this timing being revealing. Can I ask what you meant? Wasn't sure I followed.

Thank you so much for being alongside me as I navigate this stuff. You VESMB Amazons are my sisters in the sky and I could not be more grateful. (One expects high-schoolers to have patience for all these he-said, I-said and then he-did, I-did breathless romantic blow by blows....but I know how lucky I am to have grownup VESMB sisters willing to tolerate it too!)

love,
Hops

[sKePTiKal]

EEK.

This was probably an "in the moment" thing... I wouldn't take it seriously. Even though it feels pretty good. There's a lot more "getting to know you" that needs to happen and trust to be built, before that phrase has real meaning.

[Hopalong]

I agree.
Strange as it is, I am the realistic one.
He is engineering and building a romance...lovely but perilous.

It's not that he's not feeling real feels, or that he's insincere. It's that imo, he's showing how different our experiences have been. He's got the first comes love youthful kind of fantasy approach... kind of the way I had when I was young. It's sweet to be around but perilous if we don't stay rooted in the real. I've got to also respect that the man makes commitments, however. He stayed loyally in a 40 year marriage with someone who had a couple major problems. I don't know how long they courted but somehow, this get-swept-away is in his wheelhouse.

Romantic, but I don't fully trust western romantic love any more. Time and behavior will tell if he's in magical thinking always, or just now.

Not entirely in my wheelhouse, so even if we might wind up with the big M, it wouldn't be until I've been dragging the steamboat backward down the river for as many miles (and months) I need to.

I'm glad you guys are kicking along too. I won't forget I can get off the river any time I spot bad rapids....

xxoo
Hops

[lighter]

Hops:

I remember things you post about..... they're familiar in some of my own stories.  The unwanted stomping into my physical space followed by his being good enough long enough....but then.....he switched from physical boundaries to emotional ones....the"I love you" all up in the mental space. 


Well.....

WTH?

You ask for space and he steps back, circles around and steps back in....all close up and faaaaaaast again. . It's not true space, is it?  It's more infringement, mascarading as less, IME.

I'm back to asking....is it protective leaning ng in to reciprocal care, or.....
something else?

Tupp brings up his tidy controlling/controlled personality, and your relaxed style.  Whoo boy..... Been there, done that.  Maybe I could have handled things better, but my drive to please.....
it drove me to my knees, though I blamed the man.... The blame was mine.  Later I realized I knew it intuitively, before it came to pass.  Huge lessons learned well.  I should have cared more about myself,and less about him.  I gave myself away and depended on his approval, rather than my own.

Later, my beautiful B would be a healing, giving spirit, teaching different lessons.  Learning to receive was harder than I thought it would be.  After B was dx'd with cancer, and died 5 months later....the week we planned to marry, I accepted I'dlost the love of my life.  I didn't expect to find that kind of love again. 

I consciously dropped my standards, bc..... I figured it was necessary.  Someone like B seemed an impossible ask.  I'm not greedy.  I had one true love.  It could be enough.  Right?

The trouble with lowering one's expectations....standards.....
in my experience, it's a slippery slope.  I slipped all the way back to my default status of pleaser, bc .....the personal dynamics involved  were tougher than I was.....and I started out Uber tough.  I slipped into keeper of peace mode, eggshell walker, eyes closed, screaming in my own head to avoid acceptance of what I'd done to myself and 2 little children.  I was dependent on a certain outcome....a safe, protected outcome.  I was willing to put up with a lot to keep the illusion alive.  At least till our children were old enough to protect themselves.

So, here you are....a benevolent, giving spirit practicing boundaries, and holding your ground.  Your B is privileged, has always belonged to that group, and has pressed one boundary while relaxing another, to my eye, at least.

I recognize moving too fast.  The breathless flush of feeling adored......for better, and worse.  It's a giddy, amazing thing..... intoxicating.

:: nodding::

Part of me wants you to just HAVE that.  Experience it.  Make it yours, if only for a short while.  Roll around in it taking big bites as you go.

Part of me wants you to make sure he wants the best for you, before giving him the best of you.  His saying he loves you doesn't give him any rights.....
 You said you wanted to move slowly....
he's actually moving faster, and....

wTH?

With that said, please remember I regretted moving so slowly with my beautiful B.  Had I known who he was, it would have been easier to move more quickly, but getting to know someone takes time.  No getting around it, and my B insisted we move slowly once he understood why.   We pays our monies,and we takes our chances, as the saying goes.  You may have regrets, and that will have to be ok too.  You shouldn't freeze up with dread and doubt.  Assess, Accept and Act.....AAA's of life and making informed choices, right there.

I sense you're tempted to be swept up in these moments.....maybe....a bit?

Be that the case, be swept without reservation....
wholly, and with great joy, but with eyes wide. 

Faint heart never won fair maiden.... So true.  Maybe B's heart is fierce, and good, and wants to help you be good, kind, benevolent in this world, in all the ways you require.  In ways he's not particularly driven to be himself.

My B was that, and so much more.  He gave $15k to charitable causes yearly as required by every partner at his firm.  He only said it once, and there was no resentment or regret....no desire for admiration for it either.   There was a grace about him, and doing for others.  He never would have diminished me.  He didn't ever say that.  His actions said it all.

The one man who said it out loud was lying to me, laying traps, planning ahead to crush me.  I don't want to trust words as a consequence.  I want to trust what I see with my own eyes. 

Remember there can be degrees of giving the best of yourself.  It doesn't have to be completely, and irreversibly. 

It can be gifted with abandon.... but,
 perhaps,
without expectation and blinding need for this to BE something in particular.

Maybe expectation and desire is the part that hurts when things go sideways.  If we're open to what comes next, come what may, we're less likely to fool ourselves when we need clarity and power to discern the most.

This man will tell you who he is..... eventually. 

When he does you're going to believe him, and you'll be ok no matter how it goes.

:: nodding::.

Enjoy this jellymoon stage, but I encourage consistent focus on yourself, and your separate life. 

Men like women who have other things, anything, going on.  You deserve your own life, and sense of importance.  If you don't value yourself, why should anyone else?  If B cares about you, he'll be patient.... he'll make sure you're ok too.

Lighter

[Twoapenny]

Not to worry, (((((Tupp))))), I am very grateful for your support in my foot staying firmly on the brakes. That's my intent, and though I'm very affected by his declaration I'm wary of its speed for exactly the reasons you cite. I do think he was a little indirect about my reaction to the "jokes" but in person, didn't sense anything uber-ugly bubbling (largely because of his story about the muslim man). Just a blind spot of privilege and context. (He's from the Detroit area and that may have contributed to some cynicism about that "Detroit bumper sticker" image, not that it excuses it.) I have to measure it against what I've seen in person, so far. It's troubling, gives me serious pause, and I'm not done wanting to get a more clear view of what that's about....but it's not full dive, dive! siren yet. Partly because he's respectful and hears me when I challenge him on stuff. Every time, so far.

One thing about character. He was trying to give me a compliment by comparing me to another woman my age (less "attractive" with less exuberant personality kinds of things). I expressed discomfort. He pays attention. He asked, why doesn't this feel like a good compliment to you? I said, it's nice to be valued but I don't feel good inside if I'm being complimented at the expense of another woman. What I told you about how deep my solidarity with women is, because of sexism...that is real. He responded by heartfeltly saying that I am a very good person.

He notices it when I express compassion and he moves closer when I do. My hope is that a superficial right-leaning circle he is in online doesn't have an iron grip on his soul. Hops dunno yet.

He blurted the love declaration after a moving scene in the Churchill movie that we both had the same goose-bump reaction to. It was spontaneous. I sent him a warm email later that I am keeping my foot on the brake because while very moved by what he's offering, I also want to be thoughtful all the way through.

It's pretty amazing and typically Tupp-astute that you used the term "roller coaster." This morning he wrote back: "I think I've been on a bit of an emotional roller coaster, since we met and I seem to over react to positives and negatives in our path.  Your emails often give me a sense of stability and reason."

Anyhow, your motherly warnings and cautions are extremely welcome. I know there's a risk at my age, and after years of loneliness, of flinging caution to the winds. But I won't. If anything I might risk missing out because I let my caution lead too much. Somewhere in the middle, I hope the right knowing will become clear. He IS always a couple steps ahead and urging things forward. That is his issue, his difficulty in containing his impulses while he's swamped with a panicky loneliness.

It's not that he's insincere, I truly feel. Just that he is indeed on a widower's roller coaster and way quicker than I am to think fusing with another woman (me) asap is automatically the right solution. Then again, I've heard many stories about people later in life who waste little time once they think they've found someone. I think the aging, sense of imminent mortality, has something to do with his speed also.

[adding] Forgot to answer your intriguing questions:

Are you comfortable with him seeing your untidy house yet?...
Funny you asked that. Made an intentional decision to not tidy the kitchen, leave an open unloaded dishwasher as it was plus some dirty dishes on counter. Felt fine. He didn't appear to notice (and I didn't care).

Are you happy for him to be there when you have a staying in bed, I want to read on my own day?
Not yet. I'm super protective of my time to myself and privacy. As long as he's pushing the river I'm inclined to stay on the cozy bank by myself. But that could change in time...

Did he tell you he loved you before or after you brought up the jokes?
Before. You said something about this timing being revealing. Can I ask what you meant? Wasn't sure I followed.

Thank you so much for being alongside me as I navigate this stuff. You VESMB Amazons are my sisters in the sky and I could not be more grateful. (One expects high-schoolers to have patience for all these he-said, I-said and then he-did, I-did breathless romantic blow by blows....but I know how lucky I am to have grownup VESMB sisters willing to tolerate it too!)

love,
Hops

Hops, I know you are a wise lady and that you won't be swept along and throw all caution to the wind.  Equally I understand how much we doubt ourselves and how often we wonder whether we are being too cautious/damaged/seeing things that aren't really there.  I get completely how it's easier to move fast when you're older - partly because you know what you want and partly because there just isn't that need to play games, play the field, wait and see if someone better comes along.  I guess that you and B are at different places on that front - you would rather have a partner but financially, emotionally, physically, you are ready to do this on your own.  I don't think B is in that place.  So I think you are right to put the brakes on and keep them there.

With regards to timing (when he told you that he loved you) what I had in my head was whether he'd declared it as a balm to take your mind off something he'd done that displeased you (the jokes) - so if he'd said it after you'd told him you weren't happy about the jokes did he say it to make up for doing something 'wrong' (in a more extreme version the way a physically abusive partner buys flowers and chocolates after they've beaten their partner up - the sugar to follow the medicine, as it were).  So the fact that he said it before has crossed that concern from my list

I guess the thing that is niggling at me are the (seemingly) frequent, quietly derogative references to women - the ugly waitress, the Weinstein jokes, the comparison of you with someone else.  I know you have said that he was married for forty years - but that doesn't mean happily or that the relationship was healthy.  It would concern me that, underlying the charm and the good times is a less than charming opinion of women in general.  Just something to keep an eye on, I guess.  Anyway, as always, keep us posted! xx

[sKePTiKal]

aaaannnnnnnnddddddd.....

Lighter just knocked it out of the park, Hops. Read that 3 times. I'm going to.

 

Remember there can be degrees of giving the best of yourself.  It doesn't have to be completely, and irreversibly. 

It can be gifted with abandon.... but,
 perhaps,
without expectation and blinding need for this to BE something in particular.

Maybe expectation and desire is the part that hurts when things go sideways.  If we're open to what comes next, come what may, we're less likely to fool ourselves when we need clarity and power to discern the most.

B I N G O.

I think all of us humans have a tendency to do this. Probably not something we can "fix" or "improve the original design" or ever stop doing... but if we're aware of it and can be honest with ourselves (or let our friends be, when we can't) we can avoid most of the fearful things we see as "risk".

Lighter - that's so clear and spot-on I'm sharing it with Holly. She needs to hear it too.