Author Topic: Heist on Something....  (Read 30042 times)

lighter

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Re: Heist on Something....
« Reply #270 on: April 12, 2018, 03:17:40 PM »
Not annoying, Hops.

Just interested in how T works out.  You'll have more information.

Useful any way it goes; )
Lighter
« Last Edit: April 12, 2018, 03:34:54 PM by lighter »

lighter

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Re: Heist on Something....
« Reply #271 on: April 13, 2018, 06:39:21 AM »
OK... I'm having a thought here.

Remember I posted about my mother, and my step father's relationship?

They started out with him being pretty much in charge, with her doing most of the heavy lifting.  That eventually shifted, and he had his hands full of my mother standing her ground, hands on hips....

and he absolutely adored her for it. 

Now, he didn't understand that at first.  He didn't adore it either.  It came to be what he loved about her, as much as everything else that drew them together.  They'd spat like children, and then be just fine afterwards. 

The important thing was... they got everything OUT, and over with.  No grudges, or ill feelings when they went to bed, kwim?

The other important thing was they cared about each other as much as they cared about themselves.  There was mutual respect, and it lasted heir entire 30  year marriage.

Mom always said husband #2 was "trainable." 

In her opinion.... that was very important.

Something to think about.

Lighter

sKePTiKal

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Re: Heist on Something....
« Reply #272 on: April 13, 2018, 08:35:27 AM »
Lighter, that sounds like my cliche joke... that dogs are easier to housebreak than men. LOL.

We all look for different things from relationships. One thing my long grieving process has revealed, is that what I LONG for most, in my lonliest and self-pityingest moments is the companionship and intimate connection with someone who cares about me. It's not a guy's superior upper body strength (LOL), romance or sex, or even the interests in common (although that's a functionally useful thing)...

it's knowing I can stand-down, completely collapse into a fetal ball of total dependency... still be cared for (without being picky about HOW)... for however long it takes for me to regain my equilibrium... and then be turned loose to do my independent, bull-headed "thing" again. Mike used to say: I don't know what to do; what do I say? But he intuitively knew that just holding me until it passed was exactly the right thing to do. Or the little things... like the silly bunny hat (that of course I still have!)

It's a real scary thing for a lot of guys who like the challenge of a "strong-willed, difficult woman"... to see us collapse. But it's like the seawall description... we have to let the forces hitting us flow right on through... bend, instead of break. Sometimes that requires we are protected and cared for during those times.
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Hopalong

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Re: Heist on Something....
« Reply #273 on: April 13, 2018, 12:53:01 PM »
These are SUCH good things to think about, right now. Thanks, both of you.

I am so fearful of anger (feel poisoned within minutes) that even a "spat" like children leaves me sickened for days. I don't think that's healthy of me, but it's long-term true. Probably a leftover from early experiences of being bullied.

I hope to get clarity on whether and how much change may be possible for B. (Much less me.) I sense his wiring is indeed HARD wired. But I've been impressed in the past by the intensity of his efforts to listen and then do something differently. Somehow this time when I hit Eject I let go of that faith. Partly because I was newly raw over my D, and his tone deaf reactions around that time made me feel abandoned with deep pain. And partly because I would not want to have to BE in conflict for him to notice, get it, and self-regulate. Because that would mean pain and confrontation, followed by B catching up, repeat.

I hope he's SELF-trainable because I truly don't have the emotional strength to do that. He compared me to a therapist in our recent talk and I instantly said, I don't want to be your therapist. (It's exhausting and because of how he processes things, very laborious. I want to write my novel.)

I did imagine what it'd be like to try to draw a better boundary around his OCD stuff, his elaborate and over-detailed planning for very minor things. Like, on Saturday he wanted to talk about how we could go to X to eat after the therapy appt. on Tuesday. Not a crime of course but for some irrational reason I recoil. He's always three steps ahead, has an intense need for an agenda and itinerary for every time together. ESPECAILLY about food. It's suffocating. I'd rather finish the appt, check in on what we each feel up to, and decide then.

Anyway, if he could understand how draining his compulsive detailed planning is for me, and if we could agree that he doesn't need to involve me in processing all of that together, we'd be better off. He mentioned that he has a hard time with no specific plans. I told him I'd like sometimes to just say come on over around 4 Saturday, we can just hang out, mess in the yard, watch something, eat out or in. Let's just decide then. That is excruciating for him, evidently. But my ADD brain needs to wander free at times, especially on days off, and that's my own hard wiring.

I bring unhelpful stuff to our issues as well. Just more differences between us. But I'm beginning to look forward to the conversation with a good couples T.

One silly bit of "evidence" I'll be mentioning is that even though I was very happy in general about building a relationship with B, one fact is that I've GAINED weight since meeting him. That's not my usual MO if I'm happily attracted. And to me it seems clear it's been stress eating.

More soon, gotta head for Ngent, bless his also-obsessive heart. We have to talk for 40 minutes about his decision to allow me to purchase a new set of Twin sheets for him, as the old set doesn't fit his mattress and is a pain to make.

love
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

lighter

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Re: Heist on Something....
« Reply #274 on: April 13, 2018, 02:59:31 PM »
Hops:

My mother was an obsessive planner.... and she'd do it waaaaay ahead..... that was her MO.  Always.

Then, when it was time for the plan to execute I was always caught off guard.... flat footed, bc I had little kids, or other plans, or was sick, or didn;t remember and would rather DO something else... sometimes very much resented getting herded all the darned time without getting to think about what I'd actually like... what would make me FEEL OK...... and you're right... sometimes we can't know till we're at the point of making plans. The fact I was a people pleaser didn't help my cause.  My needs were never considered...... what I wanted wasn't factored in.  When I spoke, I had no voice.  Perhaps you have some memory of that, and it's still very present in your head?  I think it certainly was for me.... likely still is.

Planning ahead works out some of the time, but not all of the time, and we're circling back to more balance, I think.  There has to be some comfort for everyone.  God only knows we can't make Sunday brunch plans around a holiday the day before.  Some things absolutely require planning.  I get that, but my brain resists... squirms..... resents the planner's efforts.  I realize I have little rituals around planning things.... things I DO in order to get in the right frame of mind.... details in other areas of my life that make me FEEEEEL OK..... make it possible to focus on whatever that plan IS.  I have to ask for the space, and time to find and complete those things.  It's not something I can put into words, so I ask for space, and silence.... for time.  I don't really feel a need to explain it beyond that, frankly.

In the end.... I've become better at planning, and trained the remaining planners in my life a bit.... just my being more proactive makes them less compulsive, IME. 

And I agree with your not wanting to be a T in your relationship.  In a past relationship I was told I needed to manage my partner..... keep him in line.... stand up to him.....tell him when he was out of line..... it was never going to happen, bc I feel the way you do.  I'm allergic to conflict, and that will never be the kind of person I can BE with.  Ever. 

In that relationship my partner was angry at my silences.  Super angry at my honesty.... I was in a double bind, without solutions.  After I ended the relationship he admitted he was at fault, asked if I could help him, but it was too late, and I wasn't interested in figuring him out any longer.... certainly not interested in fixing him.... was quite certain I could not, and the interest evaporated after 2 years of being blamed, criticized, and eventually emotionally terrorized.  My part in that was allowing the first transgression to go by without stating a boundary, and consequence...... following through if I saw a whisp of the same behavior.  I should have ended that relationship the first time he went a bit bizzerko.... instead I shut down, with him eventually bringing up my silence.  It was strange TO HIM.  People who can stand their ground, draw a boundary, state a consequence without adrenal fatigue are lucky, IMO.  I'd like to be more like that, BUT for the times I was punished for my honesty, and now have brain pathways that fear being punished/and terrorized for my honesty. 

I'm not sure how my mother's marriage went with all that healthy hashing out.  Obviously she had a much higher tolerance for conflict, and truthfully.... I do believe it was healthy to have discussions without shattering or having to rock over a disagreement.  I've stood my ground, and been assertive.... made huge statemements about myself that could be considered a challenge on a date, and not felt a blip of anxiety around it.  IT'S WHEN THERE'S A CONNECTION... when I'm attached to someone and they OUT OF THE BLUE go nutso on me that I start floundering.  That I have trouble stating a boundary.  Enforcing a consequence.  I'm good at walking away WHEN I CAN WALK AWAY, and have done it many times.  It's when there's a contract.... when there's children... when there's emotional or physical violence that I come out of my skin, and fall apart.  When someone has been good enough, long enough that I freeze, and become confused, opposed to calling it what it is, and going about my business.  Attachment is the fulcrum, IMO.  My expectations..... learning how to adjust them, and not go into denial.  Honestly, I think I've swung too far past that.  I think my expectations are so low now that I can't imagine allowing anyone in.... really.  It signals risk, and danger, and that's not healthy either Hops.  For you or for me. 

I'd like more for both of us.

I'm too sensitive to conflict..... but that doesn't mean I have to invite conflict into my life, or learn to live with conflict on a regular basis.   Back to balance, managing expectations, and inviting people into my life who can have discussions without angry outbursts.... I just think that's an absolute deal breaker for me. 

  I would like to just deal with normal stuff without emotional escalation into unhealthy territory when disagreements come up.  I'm great at honest discussion..... I have to say that.  Not so great at handling other people's inappropriate outbursts.  I must come up with automatic responses...... walk away.... state boundaries around their outburst, and agree to come back later when they can be appropriate.  That should be something I train into my reptilian brain. 

I think I'm a very courteous person.... even when I hear things that make me angry.... I try to be respectful, and I try to be.  I want the same courtesy.... I suppose I should demand it.

::eek::
Demand.

::sigh::

I've just finished dealing with customs people.... they don't take Discover, and the charge on my credit card didn't go through.. that was the reason for their calls.  All that freaking out, and everything seems to be OK.  I built it up in my mind... assumed my card was declined bc they SAID it was.... why do I DO that?

The tendency to catastrophize is a THING for me.  Maybe it is for you too, Hops.

I don't know how to circumvent it, outside asking myself if this THING is the truth.  I can't know it's the truth until I get to the bottom of it so I shouldn't assume the worst. 

New brain pathways are a very difficult thing to put in place.  It's very difficult, but well worth the time, IME.

I hope this long ramble is helpful, Hops.

It's helped me: )

Lighter

Hopalong

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Re: Heist on Something....
« Reply #275 on: April 13, 2018, 09:00:16 PM »
VERY helpful, Lighter. Thank you.

I especially zinged to your sense of needing time to process and ponder a plan, while the rabid-planner is all ready to foist it on you and jerk it into motion. It's maddening for me because I feel the same way...not that a particular B-plan is always worth being fussed about. It's the sense of missing space, and our out of sync pace, that drains me.

Especially this:
Quote
sometimes very much resented getting herded all the darned time without getting to think about what I'd actually like...


What's helped a lot about your post is its great descriptiveness. I can share that kind of description of my own feelings, my way of processing --  mainly my way of ENJOYING free time. And then B can talk about his, and maybe the T will have new ideas.

As I mentioned though, I do not want an arduous project of a relationship at this time of my life. Sure, I'm willing to work at it, any new thing takes work. But I don't yet know how serious or powerful B's OCD stuff is. And need to.

With more info, I'll have more capacity. But for now, we're visiting the T to see what happens. I know B wants it to mean we're "back on track" as a couple. I'm looking at it as, I'm open and curious but not committed.

And thank god I haven't slept with B yet. I knew my inner wisdom, insisting on going verrrrrrrrry slowly, was right for me.

Hugs
Hops

PS I also loved your distinction about the difference between being clear and assertive up front (I find that easy too) versus after a connection is formed. That makes SO much sense to me. So much more vulnerable after hopeful bonding....much more painful to assert. SHOULDN'T be, though. That's something I want to understand.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2018, 09:03:54 PM by Hopalong »
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

lighter

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Re: Heist on Something....
« Reply #276 on: April 15, 2018, 03:38:06 PM »
Hops:

I think you're on track to answer many questions you have with the T.
 IF the T isn't an asshat, or a cheerleader, or....

hooooowwww did you guys find this T?

You don't want to go to one of B's friends, and have two people trying to convince you what you need to do, kwim?  Old guys have many friends, and they like to refer each other... GO to each other.  It's nuts, but I've seen it again and again.

And.....
 I am shocked at how poorly so many people handlle the word NO.... or anything that doesn't agree with their opinion.  Just shocked.  SO.  Many.  Of.  Them.

By the time I met my second husband I was all... "I don't want anyone pawing at me all the time, I'll consider sex X number of times a week, and I don't want to be bugged about it PERIOD, and I feel this way about X and that way about Z" and on and I on went.... so very clear about so many things, and there was no strangenes... I mean... I told him my flat out TRUTH, and he was welcome to walk out the door, and leave me with the dinner bill.  I just didn't care at that point.

So, THAT beginning begs the question... how did I end up a prisoner in my own home, and life? 

HE WAS A LYING LIAR with zero integrity, and less empathy...... he was a sociopath.  How did that get by me?

The truth is... it didn't.  I KNEW KNEW KNEW KNEW KNEW... my intuition was spot on, and my truth just gave him more information with which to scheme and build elaborate lies on.

The trick is to NOT get confused, but SEE the truth as it comes.  When we don't want to know the truth... we get confused.  Once we set expectations... our judgement can be impaired.... I think. 

It's how much we NEEEEEEEED something.... how difficult it is to walk away, and say goodbye....... that's when things get tricky.

Honestly... I think honesty is very attractive.... on anyone.  On myself, particilarly.  I like ME more when I'm very honest. 

I also like myself a lot more when I don't put myself into positions where I'm being held hostage. 

My children aren't being held.... I want a world where people aren't being held hostage, but it's never going to happen.

Unrealistic expectations..... they kill joy and potential for joy, IMO. '

We must hone our discernment, ladies.  Trust our instincts.... stop questioning and doubting. 

Lighter



sKePTiKal

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Re: Heist on Something....
« Reply #277 on: April 16, 2018, 09:37:51 AM »
Thank you Lighter!

This is what I've been trying to get across to Holly. But because of the constant criticism of how she understands and feels about things... she doubts the reality of her own thoughts & perceptions & feelings. Makes mom a little crazy, over-protective and belligerant.

But, I do see the need for her to get through this process on her own - without me on one shoulder & Matt on the other. So I've just told her, she has ALL the tools and skills necessary to make her own decisions, and I refuse to make her the rope in a tug of war. She hasn't heard yet, that I'm not likely to trust Matt again. She doesn't need that in the mix.

My viking shared something with me, that I'm chewing over anyway. I'm not entirely sure how much it speaks to his personality... or is just one of those things he warned me might scare me about him. Fortunately there is still a lot of space for me to decide if I do/don't like this... and it may just be a little bit of male strutting - testosterone games. Role playing; and not really who he is... but the information is tucked away for future reference, in case it's more "essence of being" than I think at the moment.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

lighter

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Re: Heist on Something....
« Reply #278 on: April 16, 2018, 08:26:35 PM »
I hope Holly can lean into trusting herself..... figuring out what her initial instincts were..... KNOWING how right she was, and can always be.

About the viking...

come.

On.

Tell tell tell....

honestly.... I think he's telling you who he really is.  Whatever it was.

Believe him.

L>ighter

Hopalong

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Re: Heist on Something....
« Reply #279 on: April 17, 2018, 11:53:12 AM »
Thank you, Lighter. Your thoughts on relationships inspire me and scare me. Both are good.

I saw my T yesterday and he "prepped" me for the couples counselor (later today and I'm nervous) by saying I had three goals: 1) to find out how deep B's control habit goes (OCD or otherwise), 2) to find out whether he can learn to deal with strong emotion or pain (we figured out that he "hides" in managing), and I forget the third, dammit.

On my way out I asked what he knew about the couple-T I'd found (through a friend, not from B) and he mentioned he thinks he's "Christian." Worries me deeply (as to sexism, male privilege unseen, all that--terrible memory of a Christian counselor who urged me into a disastrous marriage because of his discomfort with my sexual independence). So for my own sake, one of the first things I'll say today is that it's important to me that counseling be secular and that any religious perspective be transparent. Now I'm very concerned I suggested the wrong T to B (who made the appointment).

But it'll probably go well. My friends who see that counselor like him very much. And my T said the guy is "good at what he does." He's probably not one of those "the man is the head of the house" people. If he is, I'm gone.

There's no perfect safety anywhere. I'm going to show up and tell the truth.

love
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

lighter

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Re: Heist on Something....
« Reply #280 on: April 18, 2018, 01:32:45 PM »
Hops:

Being true to yourself is a good thing.

Especially in a world where nothing is perfect...... good things have to be enough.

Take our filters with you. 

Good luck.

Lighter

Hopalong

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Re: Heist on Something....
« Reply #281 on: April 20, 2018, 07:47:33 AM »
Couples-T turned out to be very nice, no hint of evangelism, and he's written a mature (science-based) book on RET (rational emotive therapy) for couples, has taught counseling at the university, and has had a 35-year career. We all got along and I was particularly pleased for B because this T has an athletic background and has also done a lot of corporate counseling. Neither of those experiences appeal to me but they overlap with B's life so I thought there was a nice connection for them. We have homework in the book to do and B emailed me that he's excited about it. We shall see but I'm glad to be doing this (one week at a time).

Our intros were pretty good. Mine a history, B's a step-by-step narrative of how we met and what he said and what I said and then and then. The T seemed enthusiastic about working with us. Said his "passion" is creative writing, so that's a connection for me. All I care about is empathy...figuring out if B has enough and likewise the T, to imagine/understand some of my experience. It'll help to know.

Today (couple hours, gotta pack!) we head for our Real Long Wknd. My favorite city with more reunions with friends, then the shore where B and his wife lived for years. Their friends we'll stay with are an an engineer and his artist wife, so that's encouraging! I'm looking forward to it.
May be offline for a couple days or pecking away under the covers on the Ipad at 4am.

xxxooo
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Twoapenny

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Re: Heist on Something....
« Reply #282 on: April 22, 2018, 03:54:08 AM »
I'm glad the T seemed like a balanced kind of a person, Hops.  I remember seeing a hospital psychologist years ago who was so peculiar that I started to wonder if one of the patients had escaped and nicked a white coat and a clipboard :)  It helps when the person in front of you seems okay :)  I hope the weekend away goes well and look forward to hearing about it when you get back xx

lighter

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Re: Heist on Something....
« Reply #283 on: April 22, 2018, 11:01:13 AM »


At least it wasn't a complete bollocks, Hops.

Sounds kind of promising, actually: )

Lighter


sKePTiKal

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Re: Heist on Something....
« Reply #284 on: April 23, 2018, 09:21:31 AM »
How was your weekend trip Hops? You sure had nice weather for it!
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.