Heist on Something....

[Hopalong]

Thanks, Tupp.
I also feel somewhat badly because I over-react to his "edits" and "improvements" and criticisms.

I think if I were less raw, maybe I could've just listened to him describe his "this is exactly how I'd like you to say goodbye when I leave your house" fantasy. I could've listened, gone mmm-hmmm, oh that was sweet of her family wasn't it...and then just said something like, "Well nope, you'll not get that from me, but people are all different, aren't they?"

And maintained my cool. But....I didn't.

I told him I'd be available all day today if he'd like to talk. If he doesn't call that means he's also ready to end it if we don't have a breakthrough. And I think it's unrealistic to think he'll suddenly understand.

Maybe I'll write an email, or maybe it's a bad idea. He is NOT stupid, so I hope he'll be able to see a pattern.

Hugs
Hops

[Twoapenny]

Hopsie, you haven't over reacted at all, quite the opposite.  You've just had terrible news about your D.  His response was to tell you to smile.  You went out for the day and then called him to see how he was.  He wasn't sitting at home worrying about how you were feeling, it seemed it was quite the opposite.  And then he feels a need to complain that you didn't see him off in the way he liked?  I think you've reacted very calmly to everything that's been going on.  Yes, if you were less raw, you could have listened to him talk and maintained your cool.  Equally, he could have been aware that you are raw (and it goes without saying that no-one with a heart could fail to be affected by this news about your D so for you to be feeling raw at the moment is the only way anyone would feel, in my opinion) and asked you how you felt, if you wanted to talk, chatted about nothing in particular.  Instead he felt the need to critique the way you said goodnight?  I think you're taking too much responsibility for how this has been going, to be honest.  He could have made more of an effort and worked a bit harder on this one xx

[sKePTiKal]

Please stop blaming yourself for your actual feelings about how B is. And thinking that there is something wrong with "how you are".

BULL.

It's not your job to "fix" yourself - as a condition for a relationship. /end truth

It's not his place to "instruct you" on behavior from you that becomes the basis for continuing a relationship. That's a big boundary transgression. /end truth

Sorry. I've held this in, for some time. "Stepford Wives" indeed. I know I've done a 180 on my judgement of B. But, over the amount of time of this "getting to know you" phase what you've described is so antithetical to what I know about who you are... and I'm just really tired of watching you trying to bend yourself into the pretzel'd version of Hops that he seems to demand from you... and then you beat yourself up, because you're just not "feeling it".

Stop it. Please. This is a lot more than just an "engineering" perspective on the world. There is something "broken" in B that he doesn't recognize that you are not "programmable" to suit his fantasy of a "perfect relationship". If you continue - I guarantee you'll be "punished" by him, for that. One way or another.

Even your pup will come and apologize and snuggle, if she hurts you. B doesn't seem to have a clue that his tone-deafness to your emotional needs HAS hurt you. And that makes me mad, in your defense.

[Hopalong]

((((((((((((Tupp and Amber)))))))))))))

My gratitude for your support is inexpressible. Lighter's too if she were chiming in.

Thank you.

My only TINY delay in making the choice (that I've already nearly made at some level) is thinking that Lighter might remind me that one can work with this kind of thing, modify it, and I believe her. I'm just not sure I'm that competent or brave or disciplined a "one", is all. My discipline is rare and my will so mild as to barely register.

I can't tell you how amazing it is to tune in here and find such extraordinary support from such deep perspectives. It's inexpressibly amazing. I feel so incredibly fortunate to be one of the wee group of Amazons Doc G has empowered here.

If B calls and we talk things through today things could change...or at least pause. But I'm thinking he's plenty smart and plenty attached to his view of things (and his compulsions) so wouldn't be surprised if we're both backing way simultaneously.

If he doesn't call, I'll call and tell him I've decided.

love and endless thanks,
Hops

[sKePTiKal]

I read your email. It's above and beyond kind. Generous. Appreciative of differences even.

I think you deserve that in return.

That's all. Carry on.

[Hopalong]

I posted but then removed a draft email I was thinking of sending B.
I think it was off tone, but am pretty sure I'll send something similar.
Without so much gushing. I'm not feeling as I did even this morning.

I don't want nor need to be angry at him but my eyes are open now.
It was subtle enough that it look a while to fully recognize what the cost would be.
Regardless of his intentions, his micromanaging and controlling stuff is too much.
And when he's focused on grooming me for a part, he's not able to see me.

I think the empathy's been missing to a degree all along, and I didn't see it.
I felt that night at the restaurant that my sadness was annoying him.

That's really all I need to know. I don't have to analyse it any more.
B just doesn't seem capable of being genuinely intimate and I don't want a partner
who'll do the cold executive thing he retreats to. I don't blame him for his wiring but think
I just got a much clearer glimpse of what it might be like to be his wife.

He hasn't called all day. It might have made a difference, but he chose not to.
(He once broke up with a woman he was dating by just dropping her, without explanation,
he told me. So he may have made that decision anyway.)

I'll send some form of email, because I think it's the right thing to do.

Thanks for putting up with this saga. Y'all have been extraordinary. I've learned a lot
and though I'm disappointed I don't regret it at all. It gave me happy practice for a while.
And that's good! Should I get lucky and find someone more compatible, I'll be readier.

love
Hops

[Hopalong]

I sent B the email. Gratitude and farewell. And an honest description of what has defeated my hopes.

I am paying attention to how it felt. A little bit of a wave of cold, because I am alone again and the future looms. But another thing that happened after I hit Send was that my shoulders instantly dropped an inch.

I hope that means I did the right thing.

Hops

[Twoapenny]

Hops, for what it's worth, I think you did the right thing.  You've been very aware throughout of whether or not you were responding to certain things B did because of certain things other people had done in the past (personally I think your responses were spot on each time and you were far more caring, gracious and willing to take time and listen than I can be) and you've most definitely put the time and effort in.  And you did have some nice times and moments with B, and I think they come to the fore a bit more once things settle and some of the other stuff starts to fall back a little.

I do think difficult times are the real test of people and relationships and I think perhaps the situation with your D coming up as it has was that test for you and B.  Your ways of dealing with things are very different - neither of you are wrong, you're just different.

I get the sense of being alone.  It is tough.  But I am still hoping there is a Mr Hops out there somewhere who is more on your wavelength and who would kind of be in sync with who you are a little bit more. xx

[sKePTiKal]

Interesting about your shoulders Hops. That's something I do, to the point I've pre-booked monthly massages. There really is such a thing as being too different (sum total) to be able to be together. And it's not about empathy, or even basic values (although that contributes to the total). But in this case, that wasn't the real issue.

The real issue is he felt he was able to define, decide, shape just how you should be... to make the relationship work for him. Never quite grokked that you have an equal right to that, or even that you might want it. Doesn't matter, most of the time, if you both have different needs and wants. It's that understanding of "it takes two"... and neither one being more important (or in charge) than the other.

You accepted that he is who he is; and while you didn't really want to change him... you did your level best to explain why that was a problem for you, gently... and while the "data" got through to his brain, it never penetrated any deeper than that. Which is why you continued to get emails, and continued to stress out over the most recent "thing". That just increased your emotional awareness that maybe he wasn't the right one... and it wasn't going to be possible for you to make any more space to accommodate that about him.

IT SHOULDN'T BE THAT DIFFICULT. Really and truly. And when it is, at our age, it's better to throw that fish back... and try again. These guys can be great people in and of themselves, but that doesn't mean they're a good fit for you, me or Holly. Those guys are still out there. Looking for you - and maybe you'll find them first.

And I fully believe you should feel "anticipation" instead of "anxiety" over the next time you spend time with a guy. The anxiety is your early warning radar that you can't be what this guy wants, without selling yourself out. You shouldn't have to choose.

Amber's bottomline:
You should be comfortable and relaxed enough to spend time together in fuzzy pants & robe: without putting on a "public face", cleaning up the dishes, tidying the house and vacumning... and babbling out the stuff in your head without editing it first.  Everything else is up for experimentation, exploration and negotiation. I guess this has evolved watching the course of your journey... listening to Holly's trials & tribs... and my own tentative steps in this direction.

It shouldn't take more than a few months to know if you can relax to that point with someone. That's the chemistry part that doesn't sit still to be analyzed or defined. LOL.

[lighter]

We'll, hops....you gave it your best shot.

And it WAS good practice.......
such good information....a probe of sorts.
A mission.  Discovery.  What do you need, and what can you live without?

I'm the kind of girl who can lead with valuable information on a first date.....a sort of mental "this is me naked this is me dressed" rundown of absolutes.

Sure, that didn't work out well for me.....but both parties have to be telling the truth, IMO.  IF you can have a meeting of the minds on big stuff, perhaps the rest will follow.

When ready,  Get out there,  meet people, practice discernment....betting economy if motion kicks in with practice too. 

:: Nodding::. 

More information is good information for future possible relationships.  You're very special.... you deserve someone who appreciates you for who you are.  You deserve to be comfortable in your skin.

This guy was unaware...... unable to focus on anything but his own little selfish baby man needs. 

I imagine his wife felt very alone in her struggle to be heard, and appreciated in that marriage. 

B's unable to do better, it he would have, IME.

Sorry.

Lighter

[Hopalong]

I just spent a couple of hours re-reading all 18 pages of this thread.

What hits me is that, with my monster-brother, I spent most of my childhood absolutely LONGING for a sister. Then, until high school, I was bullied and/or ostracized by most of the girl packs. Unaccountably, I went off to an all-female college where for the first time, I was loved (and liked!) by my peers. That changed my life. And accounts for the truly massive gratitude I have felt ever after for the friendship of women.

And here? I am experiencing that college joy again, but with grown-up women, with lifetimes of experiences, struggles and obviously SUCH deep and insightful thinking. (More than seems available IRL, with the exception of two thinker-friends.)

If I could could I would make each of you one thousand muffins. I mean muffins that would taste like divine eternity food, make you live forever moving like ballerinas, and put hair on your chests. Well, not that.

Thank you.

From the heart,
Hops

[sKePTiKal]

Hugging you back Hops. But I don't need any more hair where it's not supposed to be, thanks very much. LOL.

Big day today - in a "just for me" way. I'll blab all about it in the farm thread.

[Hopalong]

Y'all are going to wanna scream at me.

But B called, long gentle talk (neither of us angry) and he asked if I'd do a few sessions of counseling with him.

We agreed we might decide to wind up as just friends or if it really gives perspective that we can work with such huge differences, could try again after a cooling-off-the-romantic-stuff period.

The main reason I said okay is that he said he was wrong to say things he said and he also said he's been told by other people that he tends to be controlling and he owned it. I thought that was positive and so, why not.

I'm still thinking we'll just get more clarity about how deep the differences are. I do not want a huge tense project of a relationship. As Amber said, it should not be this difficult, especially in this chapter of our lives.

But he was so willing and so clearly eager to do whatever he could that I felt safe agreeing to a few sessions. No commitment beyond that, and the worst that could happen is we both learn something valuable that we'll use either together or separately as we move forward on our own.

Hope it's not crazy to do. Doesn't feel crazy. But it may be.

love
Hops

[sKePTiKal]

Nope; not crazy. Neither of you wants to be alone; you're at least familiar with each other now. But there's a little bit more space for each of you to figure out if you CAN be a couple now - and it's good he wants to go to counseling. He's smart; he may not be able to control his "controlling reflex"... but maybe he can learn to recognize it & manage it better and understand that other people don't like to be controlled at that level... and it's in no way a threat to him or reflection on him for people to be themselves and "unmanaged" by others.

You have to make Hops' decisions. Not B; not us; not anyone but you. So, you'll have to decide if it's going to be possible to be together without it being so difficult on a regular basis.

There is a time to acquiesce to the partner's wishes... and a time to stand up for yourself and refuse. Those times are different with different partners. But the continued anxiety and the inability for you to relax and trust... aren't something inherent in you. He is giving you cause to hang back. And there needs to be equity of giving space... and giving trust/intimacy... for the relationship to grow and deepen. A deep understanding that one person isn't always "in charge" of a relationship is a pre-requisite.

This is the difference between "playing nice" and one person dominating. It should look familiar, as much as we've studied boundaries.

[Hopalong]

Thank you, Amber. I agree with every word.

I see it as two anxieties triggered by each other. Could become such a toxic cycle if we don't each manage them.
His is OCD plus entitlement (nearly a guarantee after his life story). But in there, he's quite sensitive.
Mine is fear of enmeshment or domination. I am wary but willing (for the counseling try).

I guess another reason I figure it's worth doing is I do care about him. This could be big for him if he goes for it.
And for me too, as in calmly speaking my truth to a towering male can never be bad for a woman to practice, eh?

We'll see. Thank you for not being annoyed!

love
Hops