Author Topic: Double Jeopardy; A; WTH is the matter with women. Q; What is Men, Alex?  (Read 5700 times)

mudpuppy

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Hello everyone. Long time no see.
So I'm minding my own business at church last April and this very attractive blonde lets me know she's interested. Says she's been eyeballin me for two years but wasn't ready for a relationship til now. I ask her out. She lets me know she doesn't think she has time for a relationship because of her insane schedule; and she does work nutso hours. Has a masters in criminal psychology and therapy and is a marriage counselor.[shoulda been a red flag, sorry doc] We go out anyway on May 4th and hit it off instantly. Been divorced 4 years, I'm the first guy she's gone out with. I tell her I'm already falling in love with her on our first date. We have a pickanick for our second date and I tell her someday I'm going to ask her to marry me. She tells me some day she's going to say yes. We are perfectly matched and incredibly happy and fall completely in love. Several times she admits she's impressed I don't have a problem with her schedule. And I don't. As long as I have her heart whatever time she has is fine. We got more physical than we should have probably [well definitely] but she was an enthusiastic and quite competent participant. She's already calling her house "ours" and calls me her husband and I call her wife.
  So after 13 straight days on she finally gets a couple of days off just after the 4th of July. Her boss texts her if she can come in anyway. She groggily says yes and regrets it as soon as she did. No biggy to me. She then wonders how we might go about eloping or what sized wedding we should have, who should officiate etc. Obviously completely in love and serious. Goes into work gets stuck on the job overnight and doesn't get home til mid Saturday. That's ok. We go up to the mountains and then have dinner and watch a movie in the afternoon/evening. No problemo, but she's pooped and we don't fool around so like an infant I get my pout on as she falls asleep. I wake up pouty and she has to work a double so we don't get to go to church together. She texts me that afternoon and asks how my day is. I say I'm a little down and disappointed because of how the weekend worked out. She feels bad.
  Next day Monday I'm already feeling like a jerk so I want to go up and talk to her, but she says she needs her space and needs to think about things and that she doesn't think we have time for a relationship. We text over the week a little and then I go see her Friday. Suddenly issues that were perfectly fine are not but the only one that makes her cry is that she says she cares so much about me she doesn't want to hurt me because she doesn't have time for a relationship. I tell her the only thing that will hurt is if we don't have a relationship and that all I said was that I was a little disappointed and I was already over it and was being an idiot. She cries some more and tells me that's what her bipolar ex used to say to her all the time. We pray together and she asks God to take this pain from him away. A week later she breaks up via text with me anyway saying she doesn't want the stress of someone always waiting for her or trying to adjust to her schedule. I tell her I have never cared about her schedule but that I could never make her see it. My heart of course is broken into tiny bits.
 Talking about a wedding one day. Two days later ready to break up and the only intervening thing was me saying I was disappointed in the time we had together which just happens to push a button left there by her useless ex that I didn't know was there. But she now insists it was that our relationship was "heading in the wrong direction" is why we broke up.
   She obviously has a deep hurt that needs healing and that makes her scared to death to let anyone next to her heart so that when an actual commitment goes from fun and games to potential reality she runs off instead of working on things, which is pretty ironic for a marriage counselor, IMO.
 Why can't she just admit that she has this pain in there so it can get healed? She actually got mad at me when I happened to suggest that might be a plan.
 Why couldn't she have left me alone since my heart was somewhat less broken from my late wife than it is now from her?
« Last Edit: July 28, 2018, 12:35:12 AM by mudpuppy »

sKePTiKal

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Oh wow. I'm sorry you went through this mudpuppy.   :(

I wish I could offer some brilliant insightful nugget of wisdom that would make all of this understandable. I'm not doing all that well, getting back into relationship again with someone so maybe I don't know as much as I thought I did. My D is processing all the feelings of the end of a longterm relationship so it's not like I don't get what's going on... I just can't explain it.

But I see one little thing in what you wrote that might be a clue. You'd have known about some of her buttons and what not to push accidentally, if you'd taken more time initially to talk through personal histories some. It does really help to know what kind of relationship experience a potential "partner in crime" has before getting in over your head.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

lighter

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Hi Mud.

About this situation of yours......
What popped up for me was what could have been experienced as critical/whiney/hard to impossible to please, heading toward interpersonal terrorist land with a demanding partner AGAIN feeling.

Not that you are, but...it sounds like you hit the wrong chord and got lumped into that category.

I'm so sorry, but understand the dread and revulsion of being trapped in relationship where that's a factor.

The best you can do is back off, give plenty of space and show her you're not co dependant, needy, pushy, or anything she's afraid of.

Play it cool.  Be strong.  Be confident.  Maybe she'll calm down, and open up again.

Also....she didn't leave you alone at church, bc she wanted to get to know you.  She wants what you want...honest, loving companionship.

You're not a victim in this, imo.  You're a grown man moving fast into uncharted territory.  There's bound  to be hiccups. 

Relax.   

Breath.

Be confident.

Healthy people don't want to be responsible for other people's happiness.  They don't want to be interrogated, or sighed at over silly things.  They want adult interaction with an authentic other person sharing their truth....
I think.

Maybe.

Just give her space.  Let her come back to you.  If she does, know she has tender spots, and stear clear if them.  No one wants to be jerked around over small stuff.  No one wants to feel responsible for someone else's happiness.

No one wants to date a fragile, emotional,pouty person, esp if they're busy, with little time for themselves, ime.

Sorry your heart is hurting, but she may be back.  Chin up.  Be confident, and don't let her see you sulking.  Be kind, use humor, and stay aloof.

Be grateful for what you shared with her.  Gratitude is super special....maybe it's the key?_

I've missed you, btw!

Lighter




mudpuppy

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Hey lighter and sKeP,
Obviously I left out a lot in my description of 2+ months. Saw my counselor/therapist today and after listening to me describe things for an hour or so including the stuff I left out here he decided she's probably got some borderline tendencies. And after considering things I think he's got a pretty convincing argument.
Makes it a lot easier to understand and deal with, though he is obviously not diagnosing her. But as I look at the whole arc of the thing it explains an awful lot of the bewildering parts of it; bewilderment being a pretty common side effect of entering a borderline's orbit.
I still consider her a friend but if she does come back I'm getting some of that yellow caution tape for my heart.

mud

Hopalong

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I'm so sorry you're hurting, ((((Mud))).

For me the biggest red flag was on you both:
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I tell her I'm already falling in love with her on our first date. We have a pickanick for our second date and I tell her someday I'm going to ask her to marry me. She tells me some day she's going to say yes. We are perfectly matched and incredibly happy and fall completely in love.


Everything I've read, for many many years, says lightning strikes and (real) love at first sight (date) are rare, rare, rare. They're usually a combo of lust, loneliness, and imagination. Creative souls do this.

It's like--there's one solid silver marble in a swimming pool full of marbles. Of course you got it on your first dive!

Her schedule is secondary and diagnosing her borderline? I don't know.

But I would say with all my brain that it didn't sound like a reality-based start. You gave no time to build a foundation a life could grow on. Her panic is on her, your speed and pouting on you.

I'm so sorry. Doesn't matter why these things happen, they still hurt.

hugs
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

mudpuppy

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Hi Hops,
Our underlying feelings were genuine even if overlaid with new love excitement.
 Regardless, the way to deal with it is to talk about it and make adjustments not run away.
As I specifically said my guy didn't diagnose anything. He suggested she was displaying some mild borderline tendencies. Were I to describe everything that occurred that would make more sense.
Obviously we took things too fast, but we were and are genuinely fond of each other. When she said she needed some space I idiotically pursued her rather than standing still and letting her come back to me. Even so I remain hopeful that if I stand still now, eventually she may find her way back.

mud

mudpuppy

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And just to be clear I don't really have any idea what really happened. That's most of the problem. I didn't really do anything to cause it.
She talked about her hours and her concern for anyone handling her schedule a lot from start to finish including the three major conversations that ended in the breakup. And my mention of being disappointed did start the whole ball rolling.  But I don't know if that was just an out she uses when things get too hot. A mutual friend who is a perceptive woman said she might be a dreamer and when I started making her dreams come true she bolted.
I have no idea if she really has borderline tendencies. If she does they're mild because she never did any of the cra-cra stuff. The evening of the breakup things got a little unpleasant and she said a couple of things which were just not true but they could have been merely said in anger. She was sending major mixed signals in the two weeks the breakup took to complete, but she might just have been as confused as I was.
My guess is, she's just wounded from her last marriage and when she let somebody in after four years and things got serious she got scared of getting hurt again and ran away.
I just hope she goes away for a few months and after healing a bit comes back, because she's the only girl besides the late Mrs Mudpuppy I ever felt this way about. For the first time in many years I was truly happy and looking forward to the future and I thought my long dark night of the soul was finally over.

mud

Hopalong

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A gentle challenge to you, (((Mud))).

Do you remember the young woman you were so intensely determined to persuade to let you stay in her life after she wanted/needed space? You wanted to take her to church counseling so the counselor could help her see her errors. I remember pointing out to you that fundamentally, you were not accepting her No. You had a whole lot of explanations then as now.

I resonate with this so much because in one of my series of unrequited/obsessive inlovenesses, I damn near resembled Glenn Close before I finally figured out that the real problem -- or the only one that mattered and the only one I had a prayer of solving -- was in me.

I submit that this:
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When she said she needed some space I idiotically pursued her
may represent a pattern within you, that is about you, and that is not about the woman. A retreat by a woman you desire triggers a WHOLE lot of hyper-inspection of what is wrong with her. Notice that. Turn that microscope around and know it will be painful, but This Way Lies Reliable Happiness.

It could be anxiety about possible loss. And...it could be that you are not convinced all the way through that any woman, at any time, can say No (EVEN AFTER FIRST SAYING YES), and that this can be okay with you. Not without agonies of hurt and maybe some nuanced blaming of her for breaking what you considered an implicit contract.

So that's where I think your answers are. And I totally believe you will wind up happily remarried one day, Mud. I really do. And if there were a shortcut on this, that I could get my hands on, I would send it to you by courier with a bow on it, to spare you the painful journey.

All I can say is, getting there is worth it. Because otherwise, I think this will happen again.

love and comfort,
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

mudpuppy

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If we're talking about the same person that was six months after Mrs Mudpup died and I became infatuated with this gal for about five days and snapped out of it. She is and was very damaged and the only reason I became infatuated was I was a mess myself. She still needs counseling as she has a long line of broken friendships whenever anyone comes close.

This present gal approached me and at least equally reciprocated every thing I expressed for a couple of months. Moreover once she asked for space I asked her more than once if she minded if I text her my thoughts and she obliged and I told her if they bothered her or overwhelmed her to let me know. She never did.
Moreover she herself prayed that God would remove this pain from her.

Regardless I have already resolved that if I am so unfathomably stupid as to get involved with any other woman in this lifetime I'm going to stand there like some kind of stoic rock, ala Gary Cooper, dispensing an occasional laconic "yep" to let her know I'm still above room temperature. That seems to be what they're looking for.

mud
« Last Edit: July 29, 2018, 11:15:46 PM by mudpuppy »

mudpuppy

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Quote
A retreat by a woman you desire triggers a WHOLE lot of hyper-inspection of what is wrong with her.

Only if there is no obvious reason. If I do something obviously retarded that causes a reaction then there's obviously something wrong with me. If I say something relatively innocuous and the reaction is far out of proportion to what I said then, yeah, I kinda wonder what's wrong with her, especially if she clams up rather than talking the problem out.

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It could be anxiety about possible loss.

I have no doubt that contributed to the volume of words I directed to her. I even told her I suspected that was one reason I was talking so much. I also told her I'm still probably too wounded to be in a relationship as I think she still is. But I don't get why so few women like to just sit down and talk it over when it gets weird.

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And...it could be that you are not convinced all the way through that any woman, at any time, can say No (EVEN AFTER FIRST SAYING YES), and that this can be okay with you.  Not without agonies of hurt and maybe some nuanced blaming of her for breaking what you considered an implicit contract.

Uh, yeah kinda. I don't tell anyone those kind of things without meaning them and I would expect them to want to slap my face if I just took odd offense at some offhand remark and then withdrew without an explanation other than some contradictory vague bleatings. I would have just broken her heart and she should damn well blame me in a very unnuanced manner.
If you're going to tell someone you love them forever and you're going to marry them you better mean it because there is pretty much no bigger pain that you can inflict than going back on those words. Other people's hearts are not play toys.

mud

mudpuppy

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Just got three or four long texts from her. Basically told me what a horse's ass I am.
After considering the last couple of weeks I think I have to agree with her.

mud

Hopalong

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Of course it hurt. A LOT.

I think there will be two tricks, that once you master them, all will be well:

Trick 1.
The implied contract of "I love you" is one neither of you should have signed or blurted or heavy-breathed yourselves into So Damn Fast. Those romantic/religious words can feel like Niagara Falls rushing into a lonely heart. So the triggered sequelae's legitimacy are undermined (you owe me now, you're not allowed to, I have a right to guilt you now) by the fact that it wasn't an authentic contract. It was under duress (romantic duress, lust duress, loneliness duress). For you both.

Of COURSE it hurt anyway that she broke it -- we're just wired that way in this culture, to react to love words like dynamite when we're feeling certain ways or thinking certain ways. But...when he encounters such a dramatically gorgeous vision again, Mature Mud will realize quickly he should not rapidly draft and sign that implied contract until, say, quite a few months of talking and learning and observing and sharing different seasons and situations and meeting each others' closest friends and observing THEM closely --all while perhaps staying out of bed sez the old prude?--are through. Nor should she. MM would have Backed Away Gently when the firehose feelings appeared too soon. Firehose feelings are only firehose feelings--a sign that all is not yet safe for the heart on fire. It WILL be, one day soon.

Trick 2.
The very moment--without any wiggle room, texts/exceptions/persuasions--that a woman asks for or asserts her desire for space/time/privacy/distance/alone-time/rest [Tip: All of these are Nos] you A-lock your jaws shut, B-disable your devices and C-Accept Her No.

Earlier, you said,
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...Regardless, the way to deal with it is to talk about it and make adjustments not run away.
"Regardless" = regardless of what she said/asked for/stated/requested. Regardless of what she wanted. "...The way to deal with it" = the way I want her to deal with it. Surefine. But that's how YOU wanted her to deal with it, which was not the way SHE wanted to deal with it. She wanted to retreat/take space/withdraw/think about it by herself. Which means, she had said No.

You don't ask/demand/insist that a woman explain to you, Yes, this is a No. You open yourself to a No being a perfectly fine if disappointing response. You accept her No Instantly after saying, "Okay. I'm going to miss you. Let me know when you want to reconnect." And then you coil up your firehouse and get very busy distracting yourself from analysing/explaining what is wrong with her. Exhausting workouts. Two movies a day. Volunteering directly with humans (very old, very young). Wear yourself out. Keep the faith that whatever happens or does not happen, you will be okay. Have patience with yourself, as the intrusive thoughts appear, gently let them pass and redirect your mind to the movie, the workout, the volunteering. Not to what is wrong with her. (Yes, she approached you first--girls are allowed to do that. You brought out the firehose first.)

It is fine for healthy people to say No to each other when they need to. A No is one of the responses we can give. It is honest, responsible, real. It can be neutral, healthy, and sometimes heart-breaking. It can be cruel but just because your response is disappointment doesn't mean it's invalid for some reason. It's in the human repertoire. It's information, not Being Bad.

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once she asked for space I asked her more than once if she minded if I text her my thoughts and she obliged

She asked for space (that's a No). You pressured her (more than once). With a lot of volume of words. Even if she "obliged" with a [weary] yes... you did not accept her initial No.

That's the echo I hear from the earlier infatuation. A firehose fixation and then a verbal, analytical, full-of-logic-and-justifications mountain of pushback and persuasion against her No. I think you want to not work so hard to persuade anyone to love you. You are entirely lovable already. You deserve love already, as you are. You are a wonderful person, Mud. Love is all around. You will intersect with the right woman in the right way and at the right time. It'll be calmer.

I really do understand it all (man, did I do the volumes of words and pressure and persuasion--which thankfully failed but were AGONY) and the pattern doesn't monsterize you, Mud. But it IS a pattern for you, I believe.

Instead of keeping your focus on What is Wrong With Women, which could take you to a long-term lonely place, I think the more you study and unpack and work in therapy on yourself, the happier your chances of a small dusty green garden hose springing to life one day with clean, refreshing and sustaining love.

Look for the little garden hose. Listen for the still small voice within, not the orchestra. That's where sustaining love starts. IMHO.

love to you,
Hops
PS--Consider trying a female counselor, your age-ish. Secular counseling. It does not undermine or disrespect faith (if it does, run). But it might help you avoid unintended mistaken-theology male privilege potholes that do undermine right relationship.
PPS-Book for you: https://www.amazon.com/Love-Western-World-Denis-Rougemont/dp/0691013934
« Last Edit: July 30, 2018, 09:27:20 AM by Hopalong »
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

mudpuppy

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Did you read my last comment Hops?
I basically said in two lines what you did in your last comment.

Trick 1. Done.
Trick 2. Done.

However you completely misunderstand the basic problem. Mrs Mudpup and I did fall in love in weeks or less and got married in five months and it was perfect.
My problem isn't that I don't have some homely, frizzy haired, man hating Ivy League therapist telling me what a jerk I am. Nor is that I'm white and have testes and privilege. My problem is I, like a complete moron, wanted to recreate or even expected to recreate what I had with the late Mrs Mudpup.
I now see what a blazing retard I was to do that.

I know it is a very slim hope, but I hope after a few months or even more in which we both heal that this recent girl and I can start over and do it right over a long period of times as just friends and then possibly more. In the middle of breaking up I suggested we sometime go to the same restaurant we had our first date at to have a second first date to start over from the beginning and do it right this time. She thought it was a very good idea then. Perhaps she will again some day.

mud

Hopalong

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Quote
homely, frizzy haired, man hating Ivy League therapist

I see now.

I don't think I can help.

Wish you the best, Mud,
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

mudpuppy

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Surely you remember I like joking around?

If you'll read over your responses there is almost nothing about the possibility this gal was making me crazy and didn't respond well to very minor relationship issues. If it's going too fast slow it down. She said she wanted to and I agreed we should. If we're too physical stop being physical. Agreed. I agreed with everything she said, but she looked for the very first issue that arose and bailed rather than even discuss working on them. When she broke it off she made a couple of accusations which were patently false and took very little responsibility for anything that happened and was not honest about who was talking about getting married as recently as yesterday.
ALL of your comments were about fixing me.
Do you do that to any of the women who come here with relationship issues?



mud
« Last Edit: July 31, 2018, 11:08:05 AM by mudpuppy »