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Relationship/s
Hopalong:
I think you're right, Lighter...the issue really is codependence.
I might start by asking him to bring it up with his T...but I'll keep in mind the possibility of joint therapy too. It was a big step that he was receptive to his own T and he's still in early stages with that, so I'll give it some time.
Meanwhile, I can read up on it again myself just to strengthen my notions of how to react but not over-react.
M is so good for me, in so many ways, that I ain't throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
Thanks for this helpful perspective. You're spot on.
Hugs
Hops
Twoapenny:
--- Quote from: Hopalong on September 07, 2019, 08:55:23 AM ---Thanks, Lighter. I really appreciate that.
I think what happens when we have a disagreement or "off" phase is that M becomes overwhelmed with anxiety. And then, he begins bits of what seem to me like passive-aggression. I don't want to overreact, because 90% of the time he's not that way at all.
Example: If we've had a misunderstanding or difficult moment to work through, and I've retreated for a bit, he will absolutely flood me with messages about his overwhelming love for me, repeating and repeating and repeating and repeating it....until it doesn't feel like being loved so much as badgered.
I mean, when someone says "I love you" and your honest response in that moment is, "You've told me that..." something is amiss.
I've tried to explain it. Yesterday that came up (the frantic repetitions). I explained to him that sometimes hearing it too often wasn't helping. So as he began to email me early this morning, he began including at the end of his message: "Oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo...." It had that whiff of something I don't like reading in an email.
So I just wrote: What is Oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo?
He said, it's what I want to say but am not allowed to say so I find another way to say it.
I wrote back that to me, it seemed as though if someone says they're feeling uncomfortable and you invent a code that just lets you do what you want anyway, that's not progress. Something like that.
I don't want to make a mountain out of a molehill but I have pretty sensitive radar for when email is going toxic. I tried to explain it, then just asked that we talk later today and stop email for now. I hope he'll be able to understand.
(I got into horrible spaces in an email relationship years ago that made me forever cautious about relying on it for actual connection. I told him that we're okay, but since our connection had been tested recently, I think it's important to be clear and careful when we write each other.)
????? Does that make sense?
Hops
--- End quote ---
Makes sense to me, Hops, and it would drive me nuts as well (if that's any consolation!). Do you think he doesn't hear what you're saying (and by that I mean, does he miss the meaning of 'I need some time to myself' and not take it to mean you mean complete radio silence) or does he know what you mean but just chooses to ignore it? I'm just wondering if being very direct with him might help ("I need some time on my own. I'm staying home till Wednesday, please don't contact me before then") Or that might be what you're already doing and it's making no difference. I'm just thinking that some people don't get nuance or subtlety (or layers - some people genuinely can't understand why saying "I love you" could be annoying) and need a much more clear, direct instruction. You know him best, obviously, they're just thoughts popping into my head as I read your post (and I'm sure you've thought of all of them already). You could just buy a very good book on co-dependence and whack him with it when he's being annoying :) Lol xx xx xx
lighter:
The reason I thought joint T might be an option was..... you seem to be having trouble getting M to understand.
Then I remembered.... Hops can relate concepts better than anyone I know. That's not the issue.
The issue is deeply help within M's childhood, and internal world. Having a professional, who deals with codependence, might get M where he's going more quickly.
My own codependence can hardly stand M's fear, and panic.... I see that now.
It's support, for both you and M, on this journey, and I so want both of you to find your comfortable groove.
Lighter
Hopalong:
--- Quote ---Do you think he doesn't hear what you're saying (and by that I mean, does he miss the meaning of 'I need some time to myself' and not take it to mean you mean complete radio silence)
This is possible
or does he know what you mean but just chooses to ignore it?
This is what I fear
I'm just wondering if being very direct with him might help ("I need some time on my own. I'm staying home till Wednesday, please don't contact me before then")
This is exactly what I need to do next time
Some people genuinely can't understand why saying "I love you" could be annoying) and need a much more clear, direct instruction.
--- End quote ---
Thanks, Tupp. As ever, you have zoomed right into the actuality of it.
I think he batters me with verbal romantic pyrotechnics partly because the way his mind/lifelong studies/language intensives work, they are "real language" to him. (Like having flowery speeches and dramatic medieval poetry pumping in your brain all day long). And, partly--I don't really know whether this is true, to be fair-- perhaps he thinks it gives him "cover" when he's actually not connecting with me, but substituting word-fog. Or, because he doesn't empathize with what it might feel like to be on the receiving end of word-fog. (Empathy has become a concern.)
Recently I said to him when he was holding forth: I have trouble sometimes not feeling as though I'm listening to an authority figure who's dictating knowledge to me, and it makes me feel resistant. (I'm glad I did it that way, starting with my own non-angry feelings.) He said: I don't think I know any other way to talk to people; I've been doing this for over 50 years.
What's happening now is that we had another crisis. I've identified something helpful to me. We are SO compatible so much of the time that the times I've felt very upset with him have felt like big shocks and I've responded with massive anxiety and upset. But I recently identified for myself that there's a pattern--his over-the-top, bull-in-a-china-shop personality doesn't cause me distress EXCEPT when he's stomping over personal boundaries. The time's he's upset me most were:
--he walked into my relationship (lack of) with my D and began toying with "plans" to reach out to her without asking, consulting, requesting permission from me first.
--he presses into my personal time and space when I've retreated to rebalance myself (as above, though Tupp helped me realize how I need to fix it)
--when I was in the ER and had specifically stated I did not want him to come back to the cubicle until I was ready to see him, he manipulated his way and bulled in anyway (ignored my expressed personal wishes as a patient). Later, his support meant everything. But his ignoring my wishes at that time was very upsetting.
--A minor one, but it pushed my T's buttons as well (as "paternalistic' which, if one unpacks it, does involve a lot of personal-boundary-ignoring). He makes statements to my friends like "I want to thank you for all your care of Hops." It sounds completely benign and his conscious intention is...but I'm not his child. It's the "thank you" that felt uncomfortable. If he'd said, "I felt glad that Hops had so much support from a friend like you at that time" or something similar about how HE felt, it wouldn't have landed weird. But the way he put it, it came across as "Thank you for taking care of my woman..." which just doesn't sit right. It's not the best example of his paternalism (his encroachments with my D are strong ones).
This last one is the same theme--personal boundaries. But it's difficult. I don't want to discuss details, methods or plans. Y'all know he has a physical vulnerability that makes him very anxious and affects intimacy. I'm just rusty. NEITHER of our physical vulnerabilities concerns me. But something else does, so much that it's hit me quite hard lately that if it doesn't get better, it is a deal breaker.
He doesn't listen to me. He is either SO anxious to "get 'er done" (which I have compassion for) or, so indifferent to what my wishes are, that my statements including No, Don't, Not There, Not Like That...have to be repeated three times before he stops what he's doing. Last time this occurred I was so upset I got up and went home, and burst into tears the minute I walked in the door.
We've tried talking it through since, and I've talked about it in detail with my T, and this question has formed. When I say--BOUNDARY (and have to repeat it endlessly before he changes behavior)...is he modifying anything because he realizes inside himself "I don't want to do/say/touch that way because now I understand Hops doesn't like it" OR because "I will obey this stupid rule/request just because I'm desperate not to lose her, not because I respect or empathize with how she feels."
I'm not sure what the answer is, and I'm feeling sad and dark about the possibility it's the latter.
I'll keep trying. It is work, we both have baggage, etc. But the night I got up and left he had actually shushed me when I was trying to tell him how it felt, what I needed. "Shhhhhh! Shhhhh!" That set me off and my ignored discomfort (emotional as well as physical) sent me out the door.
Sigh. I still love him and want this relationship to work, but for me, this was a big moment. We've tried to talk it through since and I still feel he's not hearing me.
Another thing that came up with the T is his lack of asking me questions about myself and listening to the answers. He does talk about himself nonstop. I can get him to listen when it's very important or urgent, but it's an exhausting routine of "i need you to listen to this, please stop interrupting, please let me finish, I need to say this without being interrupted, please don't start touching me while I'm trying to get this out as it distracts me and I lose my thought..." etc etc. It's exhausting and I'm concerned that if he doesn't learn to (or care to) listen I will internally disengage.
Been feeling a bit of that lately within myself, and it's making me sad. I'll face it if this is a hole in the boat that can't be patched, but I sure am hoping it's repairable. This relationship has brought me back to life and given me excitement about the future. I am hoping it won't come to letting go, but I will survive if it does.
Thanks for listening,
Hops
PS I think a lot of his boundary-bashing is clueless entitlement (raised as a golden boy in a Latin culture) and a lot of it is anxiety. A ton. He's acknowledged how deeply anxious he is. And at heart, he is decent and kind and sentimental. It's just that in these moments, I don't care what the cause is...his behavior is impacting me and he seems oblivious (or my fear is, uninterested?) in its impact on me. That's where I'm beginning to fear that underneath all the massive volume of flowery words, there's no heart connection or real empathy. Dunno if that can be learned....
sKePTiKal:
Awwwww Hops. Hugs dear.
I can imagine this feels scary. But maybe you can get a little stubborn and assertive, and say: this is what I require to feel comfortable. And release the outcome? You need to be able to explain and be understood - not just heard - about your worries with the word fog and real, felt connection and empathy. Yes, that means you might scare him too. Those are the risks involved with being open and vulnerable, which is what is needed for true intimacy.
I'm fumbling around with similar stuff too. And I have the same "word" problem as M does. LOL. Scared Buck into thinking I was mad at him last night. And I wasn't. Just trying to spit out coherently things swirling in my head and (terribly) aware that I'm also going through a big "anniversary" re: Mike at the same time this new stuff is going on. I wasn't very coherent or clear, until this morning. Seems that's the best time for me, in the day, to talk about important stuff. I think we sorted that out, but I cost Buck a good night's sleep. :(
This is turning into a beautiful fall out my way. Maybe you guys could benefit from a weekend change of scenery?
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