Relationship/s

[lighter]

Golly, Hops.  That update makes me tired for you, but also hopeful M will figure this thing out. 

He can grasp concepts!   That's HUGE.  He can find his center.

Sure it goes in and out of focus, but that's to be expected, particularly when he's under stress.  That's how these things go, IME.

When he's found ways to calm himself, he'll have more time and ability to choose his responses, rather than react to what he interprets as threats.  As he gets more consistent with calming himself, he'll have more choice.

Maybe he can help you choose a code word to gently remind him when he's losing the thread that's meant to bind the two of you?  Maybe he'll need to be looked gently in the eye, and touched on the arm, or some physical connection, but reminded he's off track,  still loved, and accepted for who he is.  His default settings will be difficult to change, but change them he must.
   

You guys are swinging back and forth.  Your need for space sends him into a spin, so he closes the distance, and clutches physically ONTO your person, which sends you spinning, so you pull farther away, and he gets needier.  This isn't working, we all agree. 

I've been the runner, and the clutcher.  They both come from very deep place inside, IME.

I'm hoping this T can help you walk in each other's shoes. Relationships are hard work. Why would we ever assume they're less work than any project worthy of completion.  They all take time, and energy.  This will get harder, but then easier.  New habits will be understood, digested, and worked on till eventually cemented in place, IME.  Think in terms of 3 months to effect lasting change if M is really working with you.  Try to conjure up the things you like about M when you're most challenged.

The T should give you guys a workable framework to DO this work...  I hope.

I'd consider asking M for permission to forward your shared e mails to the T as background before the first appointment.  It will also be more productive, IMO, than M blathering on in the first session with his POV, which you have to listen to. 

 Maybe set a 2 hour appointment that first time.  You each get 30 minutes alone, then an hour together?  Or not?  Make sure there's a little noise machine outside the door.  You should be very honest, and get to the heart... I think.  I don't really know, but I see it a certain way, and I share: )


I admit, I'm working on issues with anger and sadness over a confusing relationship in my life right now.  I've spent months being puzzled by my huge overreactions to something I shouldn't be angry about.  I'm tracing my anger and sadness back to older wounds, (and some codependence) and it's helping me discharge the anger, and process that sadness.  I'm not through, but I'm honestly relieved, today, to have just gotten started.  For months I'd ask myself why this THING was SO EMOTIONALLY CHARGED FOR ME????!!!??  I had to take up pen, and paper and write it out, then attend to the feelings in my body, and follow them up to where they originated. 

I still have to "talk" with my friend, but at least I'm feeling better in my body... not huge feelings overwhelming me. Once I distill it down, understand it better myself, I'll share it with the friend, then steel myself for her truth.  Relationships are hard work.

  I guess that's where you guys are now. 

I'm breathing for you, Hops. You remember to breathe too.

It'll be OK.

Lighter

[Hopalong]

Thanks, Lighter.
I offered him a lot of reassurance via email and repeated I'm ready for The Work. Reminded him of what you said (or maybe that was Tupp) -- that couples who do this hard work together can wind up stronger and more bonded. He replied he felt much better than he knows I'm ready to engage and am not withdrawing. So that's good.

I think one day at a time. I don't think I'll try to structure the couples counseling but let the professional guide us in whatever system their experience tells them works. And hope for the best result. We're a bit away from that as we don't have our first appointments for a while. Hanging in, meanwhile.

I'm sorry you're bumping into a painful thing that's not quite resolved in your life. But very impressed with how clearly you're looking at it, and taking tools out of the toolbox that's been so useful to you, to use while navigating through it.

Hugs
Hops

[lighter]

Hops:

I can picture you exchanging private grins with M, after the hard work is done.  When comfortable knowing has replaced limbic chaos.

I'm glad I'm utilizing my toolbox too.  It's not easy to do when I'm struggling, and that's when I need it most.

Lighter

[CB123]

Hops,

I'm so sorry what you are going through with you fella. I want so badly to be reassuring: "stick with it!", "with work you will get through it!", but I have been through too much and this is much to familiar. I don't see as much romance as a battle for boundaries and it's possible that he has been in this place before, thus the desperation. 

I was kinda horrified at some of the stuff he was saying about physical touch, and his trying to commandeer you as you walk, and the conversation later.  If you had written a script of my marriage, I don't think you could have done it better--right down to the insistence on holding hands while walking even though the gaits don't match and the tension that ensues, and the battle of wills after.

I am not able to hold onto hope for you in this relationship, but if there is anything I can give to support and encourage you, I surely will.

Please be careful, dear Hops. You are such a special person and you know you mean the world to me.

CB

[Hopalong]

Thanks, Lighter. I can so easily join the fantasy about the future private grins. I just don't know...every time I rely on my imagination, I lead myself astray.

CB, thank you. What you said is very sobering, but I'm glad of it. I don't know how to tease out the difference between M and your ex but I trust you profoundly, so what echoed for you, echoed.

I had a funny reaction in part, which was: CB just strengthened my spine.

Then another, which I'm not freaked about but is real: I have nobody else; I want it to work.

I think those things will be circling and circling until I figure out whether spine plus need can coexisit, without me devolving into a puddle of fear-of-stroke and all the old fears I've tended for too long.

I will try to remain honest with myself and with him. And we'll see whether together, we can grow.

I honestly don't know yet. We're in our eighth month, and both dragging age-70 accumulations of baggage.

I'd like to be open to the possibility that there's hope. But I do have a desire for reality above all. And then, there's a sense of vulnerability I didn't have 10 or 20 years ago.

I have a lot to learn.

Thank you.

Hugs
Hops

[Hopalong]

So now I'm a bit depressed.

I can feel myself sinking a little into an emotional place
of mistrust of M. I don't really want to do that. And I'm
not 100% sure he's earned it.

What saddens me is how dislike, in moments, can pollute
a whole happy thing.

So I'd like to ask myself (and my T) how to look at these
things in perspective. I hope she can help; at times she's
seemed discouraging about the relationship.

Good news is I'd forgotten how soon our first couples counselor
appt was coming up...it's tomorrow.

I may just be feeling discouraged but exaggerating the signficiance
of that. I need more emotional resilience to make good decisions.

Hugs
Hops

[Twoapenny]

Hops, my thoughts, for what it's worth - I think it's very difficult to filter out different types of behaviour and reactions, on both sides, whether in a new relationship or an old one.  We all have things that are good for us, bad for us, things we can live with and things we can't.  We all have things that are reasonable or unreasonable to us, that are all influenced by our previous experiences and our expectations, I think, as well as our fears for the future.

So I think it's perfectly normal for you to be feeling the way you do and see sawing back and forth over M, and it's very good that you are being open and honest about them, with yourself, most importantly.  Your fear over spending your later years alone and on a low income is a very valid and sadly only too real one, that many people share and understand.  I think it's particularly hard when you've spent many years in difficult or unequal relationships, then a long time working on yourself and then you kind of look up and the picture in front of you doesn't always look very rosy.  It's good to be positive, but also necessary to be realistic, I think, so I think your need to get this right is a very real and valid one and I can understand how you feel very much.

I really felt for you over the 'walking out of sync' thing.  I have had times when I'm out with son and a friend.  Son will walk, holding me arm.  I'm pushing his wheelchair, empty at that point, because he may need it as the day goes on.  Friend is walking alongside me, chatting away, oblivious to my balancing act of son on my arm and chair handling, and the effort of juggling those things whilst trying to keep up with the conversation is very tiring, so I completely understood your feelings about the hand holding incident.  I did wonder if his T has told him to ask, "Can I walk you to the door, can we hug?" as a way of confirming it's okay?  It sounded to me like one of those clunky things people start practising when they first go to therapy.  It will be interesting to see how the session goes when you are both talking about the same topic at the same time.

I suppose what comes across as the biggest challenge (from an outsiders perspective) is that you are used to managing and analysing your own emotions, whereas it seems M is used to other people managing them for him.  But perhaps that will be something that comes out in the couples session and will start to improve. 

I think you are looking at things in perspective.  I haven't read anything that's made me think you're over-reacting.  You seem to be looking at things calmly and objectively, and giving yourself time and space when you need it.  I think that's good.  I think you can mistrust him for a bit without letting on to anyone and it's okay - it will probably pass and you'll have a clearer idea.  I think the couples session will probably give you a better idea; it will be interesting to see what happens when someone else is making suggestions and asking questions and giving you both time to respond   I hope it goes well xx

[lighter]

Hops:

You aren't assuming anything.

You're seeing a T with M to determine what's real, and what's not.

Maybe he can learn, and maybe he can't. 

You won't know until you get curious, drop expectation, and  employ your As.

Assess
Accept
Act

All in due time, and this is due diligence.

I'm curious, have you ever though M is PD?

I haven't felt that,  but now that CB is alarmed, it seems you might?

This next leg of the journey begins tomorrow.

Keep yourself safe, trust your instincts, and honor self-care.  Maybe keep a journal.  Practice your lean, and see if your intuition is correct. 
Lighter

[sKePTiKal]

So far, I've held my piece on this last description. Part of it is due to the crazy stuff I'm going through here; and part of it is because while I want to support you Hops, and give you a giant hug... I truly think that in a relationship with someone, some people rely too heavily on other people's advice and are even pushed off balance by other's experiences and fears.

I know I tend to relate my personal experiences to what other people are going through a lot. And I s'pose that's natural. (I'm trying to get past being hyper-sensitive to the verbal onslaught about me, from Hol. It takes a toll, even when I do have my feet firmly back in my center again.)

The neediness of M, can be overwhelming to someone who needs more space to process thoughts, emotions, and just the she said/he said. It's good he's able to express that he's feeling your need for space as a rejection... now, how can he learn that it's not? Can he simply strengthen himself enough that it's perfectly OK to not hear from you for a couple days? Take care of himself? So, this is communication. It's also some of the reason the relationship WORKS, even though you've experienced a bit of opposite needs and timing.

Can you find some small way to reassure him that a temporary need for space and quiet, isn't a threat to the relationship?

I'm asking a lot of questions over on this side of the state line too. About all the relationships I'm involved in presently. Just listening for my own answers first; before I ask the people in question for their answers.

[Hopalong]

Thanks so VERY much all-a y'all. I am soooo grateful for your input. Doesn't matter if every thought is magically on point or not, because when I read I know I have FRIENDS, REAL FRIENDS who care enough to share a point of view on my detailed, repetitive internal stuff. And external. Thank you.

Tupp, I felt really comforted by your post, and your reassurance that I'm not processing or thinking anything wildly out of bounds or irrational as I look at my situation. That really mattered and helps me feel more confident to face some of this stuff. I think sometimes that when a struggle has been long, exhausting and also under the umbrella of economic fear and without family, it is a little different. That you understand that part, without judgement, is a piece of reality that I appreciate a lot. And you're not blind to the draw of love and being loved, either. It's a balance. M wants security too, as he doesn't want to be without a loving companion. I'd like us to create it for each other.

Lighter, again your perception of what he is most likely to be feeling, and where he may be in his own emotional development, is quite amazing. I wonder if given some of what you've been through, your necessary vigilance encompassed an incredible amount of close, daily, really radar-like observation. It's as though you understand male energies in a very profound way. I think you have a (very expensive) PhD in it. Luckily for me, you are able now to see those male energies compassionately too, without the fear. I can't describe how much I'm benefiting from this. So far, I don't find myself thinking he has a personality disorder, fortunately.

Amber, you're spot on. We really do need to figure out "codes" for letting each other know what we need. And you're right I can be impacted by others' experiences too, but I understand that. I also identify really tightly with different pieces of different stories, but I think I'm okay in generally sorting that out. When I catch it, I'll cop to it. (Usually later than is useful, but I'll get there). Thanks for your simple common sense, that the key issue is to teach M (but more importantly, that he teach himself, which may take a while) that absence doesn't mean disappearance, just means "not here or not available" right now. I think you and Lighter both are reminding me that if I deal with my own anxiety effectively, I'll be in better shape to offer him reassurance.

My own T is pretty connected to my feelings about boundaries and violations and all that. Perhaps even too much so. So that brings me to our first couples-T we met with today.

She was lovely. Very smart, very good at guiding us back and forth. I wanted M to go first and he talked so long (surprise!) that I was anxious about having time to get out my own story. But it did work. I listened in silence to his whole story about his backstory and his take on us. He talked often about "we" this and that, which she picked up on and guided him back gracefully to speaking for himself. During my turn, I was surprised how much I said about how I feel and how openly and also, how painful it was to do so.

In a nutshell, I talked about loving M for his big personality and also feeling engulfed by it.

Here's one thing I noticed and feel odd about. There's a lot of cultural stuff going on between M and me. I think she is also from Latin America, if I got her accent right. And she is more feminine than I feel I am. So I got a little worried about how she thinks about feisty-feminist American women. I also got in touch with how VERY fierce I am about protecting my personal space and choices and how much M challenges that at times. I identified that I might feel OVER-fierce sometimes. One huge thing she pointed out when I described my two marriages was, "You've never had the experience of being intimate with a non-abusive man." Huh. I then told her about the big exception, my lovely gentle father, and she said that my first bond with a male being him boded very well. And that helped me reconnect with M's nurturing side. That is real...even though the flip side feels overbearing.

We both got to share a lot that made a lot of sense. And she was very skilled. We have another person to see in about a week before we decide who we're going to work with. I felt vulnerable and drained afterward and M was joyful, very optimistic.

On balance, I feel better too. I think counseling together is essential and will take a while. And that's okay. I do believe it's an investment of time and effort that is worth it. I reconnected with loving M.

Your next weather report will probably be late tonight!

I love y'all. Truly.

Gratefully,
Hops

[sKePTiKal]

Damn Hops -- that's a lot of WHEW! Going to take a while for my slow brain to process. But on balance, it's sounds GOOD.

[Hopalong]

Thanks, ((((Amber)))). I'm feeling good too.
A lot of tension emptied in that session.

Lovely dinner with M. He's still his repeating self...
but very tender and urgent and sincere, I believe.
And I felt less defensive.

You'll like our first code. She (M thinks Eastern European,
not Hispanic) suggested Silencio! He liked it, so now I get
to say that whenever his talking barrage is flooding me.

FUN. I have a power word!

Hugs
Hops

[Hopalong]

PS to Lighter (from Farm Life)--
I think understanding what ruminating is, is tremendously important for all of us. I'm glad you pulled out that word.

Thanks,
Hops

[lighter]

I'm relieved to read about the T too, Hops. It's an amazing gift to speak without fear, and it's a miracle when we FEEL understood.  Actually BEING understood is whole'nuther level of miracle, IME.

Even if it's the T who gets you.  There's great hope she can help M understand as well. 

About code words... my mother used to say "LV" to the girls when they were little, and in public.  It meant "little voices."  Sometimes the girls and I use it with each other,  still.  There's a different kind of energy to original code, I think.  It's always used in a very gentle way, as reminder, not judgment. 

It has to be something you can use in front of his peeps, kwim?

::thinking::.

Was "silencio!" a joke?

Lighter

[Hopalong]

It was his lighthearted choice of a good code to use with him when I feel overwhelmed by his talking nonstop and need some quiet. She supported it because having him choose it, and seeing him respond with a smile, meant it would be a good one to use.

I resisted a bit at first, since I'd rather say something in my own language, but agreed to try it. No harm. And her inviting him to choose it was a savvy way to have him buy in to the idea.

M is completely bilingual, speaks and teaches in both English and Spanish.

(I do need to ask this T why, when I had some reaction to something--I don't remember what--she mentioned I had a "snotty" look. I didn't really like that but was too startled to say anything.)

Hops