Author Topic: Relationship/s  (Read 156161 times)

lighter

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #240 on: September 30, 2019, 02:38:25 PM »
Hops:

I can picture you exchanging private grins with M, after the hard work is done.  When comfortable knowing has replaced limbic chaos.

I'm glad I'm utilizing my toolbox too.  It's not easy to do when I'm struggling, and that's when I need it most.

Lighter

CB123

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #241 on: September 30, 2019, 08:12:41 PM »
Hops,

I'm so sorry what you are going through with you fella. I want so badly to be reassuring: "stick with it!", "with work you will get through it!", but I have been through too much and this is much to familiar. I don't see as much romance as a battle for boundaries and it's possible that he has been in this place before, thus the desperation. 

I was kinda horrified at some of the stuff he was saying about physical touch, and his trying to commandeer you as you walk, and the conversation later.  If you had written a script of my marriage, I don't think you could have done it better--right down to the insistence on holding hands while walking even though the gaits don't match and the tension that ensues, and the battle of wills after.

I am not able to hold onto hope for you in this relationship, but if there is anything I can give to support and encourage you, I surely will.

Please be careful, dear Hops. You are such a special person and you know you mean the world to me.

CB

When they are older and telling their own children about their grandmother, they will be able to say that she stood in the storm, and when the wind did not blow her way -- and it surely has not -- she adjusted her sails.  Elizabeth Edwards 2010

Hopalong

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #242 on: September 30, 2019, 10:08:33 PM »
Thanks, Lighter. I can so easily join the fantasy about the future private grins. I just don't know...every time I rely on my imagination, I lead myself astray.

CB, thank you. What you said is very sobering, but I'm glad of it. I don't know how to tease out the difference between M and your ex but I trust you profoundly, so what echoed for you, echoed.

I had a funny reaction in part, which was: CB just strengthened my spine.

Then another, which I'm not freaked about but is real: I have nobody else; I want it to work.

I think those things will be circling and circling until I figure out whether spine plus need can coexisit, without me devolving into a puddle of fear-of-stroke and all the old fears I've tended for too long.

I will try to remain honest with myself and with him. And we'll see whether together, we can grow.

I honestly don't know yet. We're in our eighth month, and both dragging age-70 accumulations of baggage.

I'd like to be open to the possibility that there's hope. But I do have a desire for reality above all. And then, there's a sense of vulnerability I didn't have 10 or 20 years ago.

I have a lot to learn.

Thank you.

Hugs
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Hopalong

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #243 on: October 01, 2019, 09:43:10 AM »
So now I'm a bit depressed.

I can feel myself sinking a little into an emotional place
of mistrust of M. I don't really want to do that. And I'm
not 100% sure he's earned it.

What saddens me is how dislike, in moments, can pollute
a whole happy thing.

So I'd like to ask myself (and my T) how to look at these
things in perspective. I hope she can help; at times she's
seemed discouraging about the relationship.

Good news is I'd forgotten how soon our first couples counselor
appt was coming up...it's tomorrow.

I may just be feeling discouraged but exaggerating the signficiance
of that. I need more emotional resilience to make good decisions.

Hugs
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Twoapenny

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #244 on: October 01, 2019, 11:40:48 AM »
Hops, my thoughts, for what it's worth - I think it's very difficult to filter out different types of behaviour and reactions, on both sides, whether in a new relationship or an old one.  We all have things that are good for us, bad for us, things we can live with and things we can't.  We all have things that are reasonable or unreasonable to us, that are all influenced by our previous experiences and our expectations, I think, as well as our fears for the future.

So I think it's perfectly normal for you to be feeling the way you do and see sawing back and forth over M, and it's very good that you are being open and honest about them, with yourself, most importantly.  Your fear over spending your later years alone and on a low income is a very valid and sadly only too real one, that many people share and understand.  I think it's particularly hard when you've spent many years in difficult or unequal relationships, then a long time working on yourself and then you kind of look up and the picture in front of you doesn't always look very rosy.  It's good to be positive, but also necessary to be realistic, I think, so I think your need to get this right is a very real and valid one and I can understand how you feel very much.

I really felt for you over the 'walking out of sync' thing.  I have had times when I'm out with son and a friend.  Son will walk, holding me arm.  I'm pushing his wheelchair, empty at that point, because he may need it as the day goes on.  Friend is walking alongside me, chatting away, oblivious to my balancing act of son on my arm and chair handling, and the effort of juggling those things whilst trying to keep up with the conversation is very tiring, so I completely understood your feelings about the hand holding incident.  I did wonder if his T has told him to ask, "Can I walk you to the door, can we hug?" as a way of confirming it's okay?  It sounded to me like one of those clunky things people start practising when they first go to therapy.  It will be interesting to see how the session goes when you are both talking about the same topic at the same time.

I suppose what comes across as the biggest challenge (from an outsiders perspective) is that you are used to managing and analysing your own emotions, whereas it seems M is used to other people managing them for him.  But perhaps that will be something that comes out in the couples session and will start to improve. 

I think you are looking at things in perspective.  I haven't read anything that's made me think you're over-reacting.  You seem to be looking at things calmly and objectively, and giving yourself time and space when you need it.  I think that's good.  I think you can mistrust him for a bit without letting on to anyone and it's okay - it will probably pass and you'll have a clearer idea.  I think the couples session will probably give you a better idea; it will be interesting to see what happens when someone else is making suggestions and asking questions and giving you both time to respond :)  I hope it goes well xx

lighter

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #245 on: October 01, 2019, 02:52:21 PM »
Hops:

You aren't assuming anything.

You're seeing a T with M to determine what's real, and what's not.

Maybe he can learn, and maybe he can't. 

You won't know until you get curious, drop expectation, and  employ your As.

Assess
Accept
Act

All in due time, and this is due diligence.

I'm curious, have you ever though M is PD?

I haven't felt that,  but now that CB is alarmed, it seems you might?

This next leg of the journey begins tomorrow.

Keep yourself safe, trust your instincts, and honor self-care.  Maybe keep a journal.  Practice your lean, and see if your intuition is correct. 
Lighter

sKePTiKal

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #246 on: October 02, 2019, 10:54:19 AM »
So far, I've held my piece on this last description. Part of it is due to the crazy stuff I'm going through here; and part of it is because while I want to support you Hops, and give you a giant hug... I truly think that in a relationship with someone, some people rely too heavily on other people's advice and are even pushed off balance by other's experiences and fears.

I know I tend to relate my personal experiences to what other people are going through a lot. And I s'pose that's natural. (I'm trying to get past being hyper-sensitive to the verbal onslaught about me, from Hol. It takes a toll, even when I do have my feet firmly back in my center again.)

The neediness of M, can be overwhelming to someone who needs more space to process thoughts, emotions, and just the she said/he said. It's good he's able to express that he's feeling your need for space as a rejection... now, how can he learn that it's not? Can he simply strengthen himself enough that it's perfectly OK to not hear from you for a couple days? Take care of himself? So, this is communication. It's also some of the reason the relationship WORKS, even though you've experienced a bit of opposite needs and timing.

Can you find some small way to reassure him that a temporary need for space and quiet, isn't a threat to the relationship?

I'm asking a lot of questions over on this side of the state line too. About all the relationships I'm involved in presently. Just listening for my own answers first; before I ask the people in question for their answers.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

Hopalong

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #247 on: October 02, 2019, 04:00:28 PM »
Thanks so VERY much all-a y'all. I am soooo grateful for your input. Doesn't matter if every thought is magically on point or not, because when I read I know I have FRIENDS, REAL FRIENDS who care enough to share a point of view on my detailed, repetitive internal stuff. And external. Thank you.

Tupp, I felt really comforted by your post, and your reassurance that I'm not processing or thinking anything wildly out of bounds or irrational as I look at my situation. That really mattered and helps me feel more confident to face some of this stuff. I think sometimes that when a struggle has been long, exhausting and also under the umbrella of economic fear and without family, it is a little different. That you understand that part, without judgement, is a piece of reality that I appreciate a lot. And you're not blind to the draw of love and being loved, either. It's a balance. M wants security too, as he doesn't want to be without a loving companion. I'd like us to create it for each other.

Lighter, again your perception of what he is most likely to be feeling, and where he may be in his own emotional development, is quite amazing. I wonder if given some of what you've been through, your necessary vigilance encompassed an incredible amount of close, daily, really radar-like observation. It's as though you understand male energies in a very profound way. I think you have a (very expensive) PhD in it. Luckily for me, you are able now to see those male energies compassionately too, without the fear. I can't describe how much I'm benefiting from this. So far, I don't find myself thinking he has a personality disorder, fortunately.

Amber, you're spot on. We really do need to figure out "codes" for letting each other know what we need. And you're right I can be impacted by others' experiences too, but I understand that. I also identify really tightly with different pieces of different stories, but I think I'm okay in generally sorting that out. When I catch it, I'll cop to it. (Usually later than is useful, but I'll get there). Thanks for your simple common sense, that the key issue is to teach M (but more importantly, that he teach himself, which may take a while) that absence doesn't mean disappearance, just means "not here or not available" right now. I think you and Lighter both are reminding me that if I deal with my own anxiety effectively, I'll be in better shape to offer him reassurance.

My own T is pretty connected to my feelings about boundaries and violations and all that. Perhaps even too much so. So that brings me to our first couples-T we met with today.

She was lovely. Very smart, very good at guiding us back and forth. I wanted M to go first and he talked so long (surprise!) that I was anxious about having time to get out my own story. But it did work. I listened in silence to his whole story about his backstory and his take on us. He talked often about "we" this and that, which she picked up on and guided him back gracefully to speaking for himself. During my turn, I was surprised how much I said about how I feel and how openly and also, how painful it was to do so.

In a nutshell, I talked about loving M for his big personality and also feeling engulfed by it.

Here's one thing I noticed and feel odd about. There's a lot of cultural stuff going on between M and me. I think she is also from Latin America, if I got her accent right. And she is more feminine than I feel I am. So I got a little worried about how she thinks about feisty-feminist American women. I also got in touch with how VERY fierce I am about protecting my personal space and choices and how much M challenges that at times. I identified that I might feel OVER-fierce sometimes. One huge thing she pointed out when I described my two marriages was, "You've never had the experience of being intimate with a non-abusive man." Huh. I then told her about the big exception, my lovely gentle father, and she said that my first bond with a male being him boded very well. And that helped me reconnect with M's nurturing side. That is real...even though the flip side feels overbearing.

We both got to share a lot that made a lot of sense. And she was very skilled. We have another person to see in about a week before we decide who we're going to work with. I felt vulnerable and drained afterward and M was joyful, very optimistic.

On balance, I feel better too. I think counseling together is essential and will take a while. And that's okay. I do believe it's an investment of time and effort that is worth it. I reconnected with loving M.

Your next weather report will probably be late tonight!

I love y'all. Truly.

Gratefully,
Hops

« Last Edit: October 02, 2019, 09:30:47 PM by Hopalong »
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

sKePTiKal

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #248 on: October 02, 2019, 09:21:05 PM »
Damn Hops -- that's a lot of WHEW! Going to take a while for my slow brain to process. But on balance, it's sounds GOOD.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

Hopalong

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #249 on: October 02, 2019, 09:35:06 PM »
Thanks, ((((Amber)))). I'm feeling good too.
A lot of tension emptied in that session.

Lovely dinner with M. He's still his repeating self...
but very tender and urgent and sincere, I believe.
And I felt less defensive.

You'll like our first code. She (M thinks Eastern European,
not Hispanic) suggested Silencio! He liked it, so now I get
to say that whenever his talking barrage is flooding me.

FUN. I have a power word!

Hugs
Hops

"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Hopalong

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #250 on: October 02, 2019, 11:22:50 PM »
PS to Lighter (from Farm Life)--
I think understanding what ruminating is, is tremendously important for all of us. I'm glad you pulled out that word.

Thanks,
Hops
« Last Edit: October 02, 2019, 11:26:35 PM by Hopalong »
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

lighter

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #251 on: October 03, 2019, 06:36:36 AM »
I'm relieved to read about the T too, Hops. It's an amazing gift to speak without fear, and it's a miracle when we FEEL understood.  Actually BEING understood is whole'nuther level of miracle, IME.

Even if it's the T who gets you.  There's great hope she can help M understand as well. 

About code words... my mother used to say "LV" to the girls when they were little, and in public.  It meant "little voices."  Sometimes the girls and I use it with each other,  still.  There's a different kind of energy to original code, I think.  It's always used in a very gentle way, as reminder, not judgment. 

It has to be something you can use in front of his peeps, kwim?

::thinking::.

Was "silencio!" a joke?

Lighter

Hopalong

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #252 on: October 03, 2019, 11:06:08 AM »
It was his lighthearted choice of a good code to use with him when I feel overwhelmed by his talking nonstop and need some quiet. She supported it because having him choose it, and seeing him respond with a smile, meant it would be a good one to use.

I resisted a bit at first, since I'd rather say something in my own language, but agreed to try it. No harm. And her inviting him to choose it was a savvy way to have him buy in to the idea.

M is completely bilingual, speaks and teaches in both English and Spanish.

(I do need to ask this T why, when I had some reaction to something--I don't remember what--she mentioned I had a "snotty" look. I didn't really like that but was too startled to say anything.)

Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

lighter

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #253 on: October 03, 2019, 01:44:38 PM »
Hops:

I misunderstood the silencio thing... .thought it was the T who liked it.  Sorry. 

I do think that's cute, but only between you and M.  In mixed company, I doubt he'll share that smile in the same way, when he's struggling, IMO.

About your "snotty" look.  I've been paying attention to my facial expressions late, with one person in particular, and I have a flash of emotion take over my expression that I was completely surprised by. 

Don't get defensive.  Try to pay attention to your expression, as a matter of curiosity, and see what you catch.  Sometimes our faced DO things we're not aware of, IME.  I think I'd want to provide clarity, certainly AND at the same time I think it sucks that women are judged "bitchy" every time we have a less than happy emotion cross our faces.  During the trials I was in trouble for it all
the
time. Even with my own team of advocates.  My frustration at the injustice.  At the crazy made up stories.  At my distress, coming out of my nervous system but having to PERFORM in public all the time, with everyone judging me.  I just honestly had to be made aware of what my face and demeanor WAS so I could stop sabotaging myself in that way.  I find men and women punish us for looking generally bitchy, as defined in this culture.  It can be fear, distress, frustration, ongoing abuse and voicelessness and it's judged the same way, which is FRUSTRATING too, IME. 

I love that M bought into the concept of code word.  I think that's wise, and smart, and necessary.  Good on'ya and T to gain his compliance.  That's half the battle, I think.  Staying engaged, and drive to learn is the next part. 

Lighter


Hopalong

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #254 on: October 03, 2019, 02:00:32 PM »
I'm totally into RBF, but inasmuch as I couldn't SEE my own face at the moment, I think it was odd of the T to make a judgey comment like that.

It is my only hesitation about choosing her. Sometimes something like that hints at underlying bias. Who knows? She may not like women who express themselves strongly, or have unconscious anti-women bias. Many many women do. Or it may just have been a poor choice of words. I think it was.

Overall though, I did like her and found her skillful. We'll see. We're meeting with another one in a couple weeks and I appreciate the chance to make choices. Not just go with the first meeting, which was still cathartic and helpful.

I've just been on the receiving end of bad counseling a couple times in my life, so I'm cautious. She may be the right one, or not. I'm actually going to ask her about that comment and explain to her why I didn't like it, and just see what she says. To avoid dragging M into it, I might just call and leave that concern on her voicemail, and see if she responds. I will share with M that I'm doing that, in case she pulls the "we have to have another full session before you say anything more..." thing.

Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."