Voicelessness and Emotional Survival > Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Relationship/s
Hopalong:
Thank you, Tupp. Very much.
I really appreciate your understanding my sensitivity to how he uses words...it just disturbed me. If M is a true N, then oh so "reasonably" laying down labels and descriptions that are sabotage-y like that, is classic. One reason it really got to me, how he began describing me to the T last time, was it reminded me of when I was in the ER after the stroke, still able to communicate although haltingly, M was telling my friend that I didn't know what I wanted because I was "very confused." Using his wise-professor voice and authoritative persona. Those things have gaslight written all over them, in my book. And again, it's a question of how do I feel about him when I am vulnerable? Do I really feel safe being vulnerable around M?
There is no more vulnerable subject in my life than my D. Talking about her in his presence I am filled with fear and dread of being manipulated. So...I think the truth is, I'll need to give up all hope of him helping her as he had often trumpeted he was so eager to do. I think he simply can't do it without angling for psychological advantage for himself in the process. If I say, okay, that's not happening, subject closed again, I think that his choice will fester in me as a power move ("I don't want to jump through Hops' hoops to do that"--meaning when I gave him the simple steps that would be okay with me for him donating to her fundraiser) that ultimately has denied her help. Right now, she's desperate again online, begging for money for meds. I shouldn't have looked.
And I'm resenting him for it. He has bragged to me recently how wonderful it feels to send big checks to his sons. It just seems colossally insensitive to me, given that he knows about D and at least at one time, was boasting about how he wanted to help her. This is where money and entitlement and power issues (and oh Lord, possibly N-ism) intersect. My fiercely awake self would prefer to die poor but proud, rather than cope with that. Then my scared self wakes up and says, fool! You'd be SAFE if you commit to him for life! This whole renewed discussion we broached with the joint-T last week has brought back up the question in me, safe maybe, but at what cost?
Then again, I am aware that although I've been full of cheer and hope and positivity as best I can, yesterday the virus and what is happening in various places really got to me for the first time. So I'm always ready to doubt myself, and ask...is this just existential fear, and am I being fair to M? Then I went and read another article on Nism in Psychology Today and being honest with myself, he fit 5 out of 7 things described to a T.
That has set off a whole new debate with myself about my capacity to be intentional and willing to risk life alone again, if M is indeed an N. It's a tough call and I don't want to decide immediately. Especially if "virus stress" has distorted my perceptions.
I'm going to talk with my personal T today about all this, in an online session. She's very kind and smart and supportive. I think she's pretty skeptical about M. What she said most recently about him was that she feels I've been very very patient with him and in her view I've allowed him to get away with a lot, because I'm so focused on his needs, understanding and empathizing with him, etc.
It's people who are deeply fair, deeply honest and so forth, plus emotionally responsive, who often get sucked into the backwash with Ns, I believe. I would hate to get back into that old cycle as I spent much of my life coping with my Nmother's disability and later my Daughter's. But I'm older and scareder and am tempted by security. Right now I'm confused and scared and ambivalent.
Maybe it's just a cycle, triggered by the pandemic, and maybe it'll be okay, and I'll be back on describing how absolutely wonderful and delightful M has just become again. Very possible.
Thanks much again.
Hugs
Hops
Hopalong:
Amber, thank you for this:
--- Quote ---if after that much time - it's still the very same thing bugging you - it's something that isn't going to change; it'll always be there. Maybe you can learn to love that too... maybe you just can't.
--- End quote ---
It's just a succinct, reality-based description of where I am. This is exactly what I need to sit with...perhaps more calmly than I've done for the last day and evening! I do have a T, I do have friends, I do have you guys. I don't need to assume I will fall apart.
And this too:
--- Quote ---permission to learn to live with his habits, or perhaps expand your horizons... or even do nothing for a little bit... including perhaps, restating your boundaries and standing firm without worrying about HIS feelings in reaction to that.
--- End quote ---
These really are my choices. Thanks for stating them so clearly. It really helps.
Mega hugs,
Hops
Hopalong:
I hear you, Lighter:
--- Quote ---This is going to be about you, Hops, changing how you view M's behaviors rather than M learning to change all the things pinging off warning bells
--- End quote ---
There's a little bit of unreality in that for me, though. It'll take some time and some more months of single-T and joint-T sessions, probably. But what I am asking my wisest inner self (hellloooo! please come back sooooon!) is this: If M's behaviors ARE warning bells of the personality disorder I was raised to be drawn to and most dread, then perhaps I should NOT change how I view his behaviors.
If I am over-reacting (layering it over Nmother trauma memories as you astutely mention) then you are right. My goal then would be to de-escalate it and remove its "charge." In my own T work and inner work. So I can stay with M.
It's not really a binary choice. My challenge, I believe, would be to find out how deeply and how much his N-ish (I am VERY confident using that adjective, with the "ish") behavior distresses me because of its emotional impact on me. Are we truly a good fit?
If it bothers me only a little now and then, and I should look at it with fond benevolence--oh, the little Nboy is acting out, I don't have to react...then the answer's pretty easy. Most of the time I enjoy his company, even though I find him extremely self absorbed. Maidenly [edit: Maddeningly! I HATE AUTOCORRECT! LOL!] , at times.
If it bothers me so much it shakes me to the core and keeps me awake all night (has quite a few times), maybe I do have to react proactively in my own self-interest. When I feel strong I can fight for myself. Then there are times I wish I didn't HAVE to be so strong, to be in this relationship. I'd like to feel safe just being however I feel, with him.
My goal isn't so much to be right or in control of everything, as it is to be wise. One friend I've talked about it with sees how much I do NOT want to live on guard, always strategizing my emotional safety, tense about defending boundaries he ignores, and ever-ready to detour around his passive-aggressive stuff during times of tension. There are simply times, particularly as I age, when I would be quite vulnerable to his attitudes and his choices. And I want to be wise around whether M is someone I can trust with my vulnerability long-term.
So far, even after a year and a month, I'm not sure. But it ain't over. I am pretty convinced this is not about the pandemic, but sure as hell is converging with that fear too.
Just called him as he'd asked. This usually happens when I place the call. He answers hello? And immediately, instantly, launches into a long monologue of whatever he's stored up. It can go on nonstop for 10-15 minutes. Eventually, he remembers to ask about me. I am not sure how interested he actually is, but he manages that courtesy better than he used to.
What I remember, growing up with them-thar fancy telephones...was an etiquette that, when someone calls YOU, you say Hello, and then how are you? Or, what's going on? Or such. IOW, a person calls someone to speak to them. With M, the unwritten rule is, someone calls me so I can speak to THEM, and he instantly launches into it. So he speaks first and most, and I get to tag on my own story sometimes, and shorter.
Oh, so familiar. You're right about that!
Hugs
Hops
PS She also said something that surprised me: that the widespread belief that people who are Ns or have many N-behaviors never ever change, is based on old research. That was an optimistic thought. NOT (hah) that M would have a wholesale personality transplant (I wouldn't want that anyway) but that she doesn't automatically assume he could never change any of his most triggering behaviors toward me. He is highly motivated to make our relationship last (even more than I am, because I am willing to leave). And I think she was suggesting that it's perhaps more useful to think about him in terms of him being profoundly insecure, rather than fixate on the N term. (She mentioned his deep insecurity. Not that I can't ever use the N ism vocabulary, but that other language for what he does is insecurity. I will find out if he can practice empathy, at least enough of it, with me.)
The couples-T, the Sikh, is kind enough to come to my back yard tomorrow, to do an outdoor session with us on my private back patio, since M has declared he feels "unsafe" going into the office building. I told her I had wondered whether it was really the virus he was scared of, or was it continuing a challenging conversation we had last time. She instantly said she thought it was the latter. I do too, but since M had already met with me in my back yard, and I assured him he would always be six feet away from the T, and he would be touching nothing the T had touched, he was safe. I think he has no excuse to wiggle out of it, so he's coming.
Hopalong:
Just unloaded it all with my own T, with an online session (which I find surprisingly intimate, because our faces are closer....works really well for me). She is so supportive. Her main message was that she trusts me, that I'm seeing clearly and asking myself the right questions, and describing behaviors (his and mine) accurately.
I told her I am trying to figure out if I'm judging him as though through a screen or ghost of my mother, or whether I can see the good and sweet and especially motivated sides of him, and see him as LESS N-ish than she was.
She followed all of it, which is great. She said she will always offer any insights she feels might help, but that for now what she feels is more than labeling or diagnosing as much as she is in supporting me in experiencing and telling my own story, which she responds to as "a lot" but also meaningful and worth deep attention. She expresses confidence that I will find resolution that is right for me; she doesn't tell me what that resolution will be.
That makes sense to me, and I do feel very supported.
The difference between the T and you guys is that you guys don't get paid. And that's totally UNFAIR. Because the thinking and insights and support you so generously give me here are worth a truckload of face masks.
Thanks from the heart,
Hops
Twoapenny:
Aw, Hops. It's tough. There's such a delicate balance, I think, between no relationship being perfect, we all have to give and take, compromise is inevitable, and so on, and then that often subtle descent into what might become, at best, an unhappy relationship and, at worst, something bordering on abusive (at least from an emotional point of view). My thoughts, for you to take or leave as you see fit, of course:
I do get your points about the difficulty M seems to have with respecting your boundaries (many different examples). I also see that he's undertaken the therapy and does seem to be trying to work on himself. But then when you mention that he is topping up your wine glass (when you've asked him not to), calling you late in the evening (when you've asked him not to), calling you hyper-sensitive about your D (I see that as his issue rather than yours. You are, understandably, in a very difficult situation when it comes to your D and all you asked of him was to respect that you find it very painful to talk about and so not to delve too deeply in to that. That's very healthy, on your part, and it's a shame that he doesn't see it in that way). I feel the same way that Skep does - if he's still doing it, maybe it will just always be how he is. Deeply ingrained behaviour that he can't quite shake off. Old habits and all that.
I did notice you mentioned him 'bragging' about the cheques he sends to his sons, rather than him just mentioning it. I thought the fact that he comes across as bragging was quite telling. I understand your need or desire for a safe and comfortable retirement and I truly do get that. Although I'm younger than you, I have no pension, savings or capital and am unlikely to achieve any of those things before retirement age without a lottery win or a best selling novel (written whilst I'm asleep by fairies or something). So I completely, completely understand the worry of being alone and fairly skint. I also worry that you might end up not being emotionally safe if your fears about M do turn out to be right, and also if even the fact that he does have a good income would work well for you? You've mentioned him not seeming to be willing to help D out now (and I'm sorry she's struggling again. It's heartbreaking that she goes through this and only natural that you peek from time to time). You also had the house 'thing' the other week where he just said no when he could have said yes. And I'm thinking about the holiday where you ended up in the jungle house with him being pretty difficult? So I'm not sure that even financial safety is something you could be sure of? It sounds as if it might be a source of difficulty as things go along.
I do think that at times like this - with scary viruses and knowing your D is not doing too well again - we can ramp up fears and anxieties and they become bigger than they would be without the other things going on. But I also think that, when we go through tough times, the people in our lives should be a port in the storm in those situations - a voice of calm, some reassurance, some practical support, etc - and not another situation we have to deal with. It does trouble me that you're not currently thinking "I'm so glad I've got M while the world is crumbling around us" and instead you're thinking, "I must switch my phone off so he doesn't rile me up so much I can't get to sleep".
I don't think you've over-reacted to any of the things that have happened - if anything I agree with your T that you've been very patient and very committed to talking, reaching agreements, stating your boundaries and so on. I don't think it matters really whether M is an N or if you are over responding to what he does because I think we've all got our 'things' we carry with us. But it does matter whether or not you are a good fit and I agree with your friend that you don't want to have to be on your guard and to keep defending your boundaries. I find that 'being talked at for fifteen minutes' thing exhausting and to be honest I avoid people who do that now. It's just too tiring and I do think it's about them, because you can't get a word in. I used to have a friend (I don't really talk to her anymore) who could talk for an hour like that - literally just deliver a monologue. I used to think I could just put the phone on the side and go and have a bath and she wouldn't know. It's tiring.
What I think is really, really, really good is that you don't have to make any decisions one way or another for months yet, Hopsie, even years if need be. There is no reason for you not to carry on seeing him (when you want to), taking time out (if you want), seeing couples T, speaking to your own T, and so on, for really as long as you need. I do think there will come a point when you do just know. Something inside figures it out while our brains run around, I think. But it is very hard and I do feel for you. I would love you to meet a male version of yourself that you could just be with and that be that. Maybe Buck had a brother? :) Lol I hope the T session was helpful and gave you some clarity xx
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version