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Twoapenny:
And I think you posted the T update as I was writing I hope it went well and it looks like it did!  Lol xx

Hopalong:
It did, Tupp.

Thanks so much again for all the reassurance and understanding. I felt very heard.

And I'm drained but feel ready for the Sikh's visit here tomorrow.

hugs
Hops

sKePTiKal:
Hang in there Hops!

It's my opinion, that you deserve to have a relationship that you feel - even when vulnerable - safe in. Maybe there's a way for M to hear that and then work backwards to how specific things he does causes you concern about that.

lighter:

--- Quote from: Hopalong on April 01, 2020, 01:37:46 PM ---I hear you, Lighter:


--- Quote ---This is going to be about you, Hops, changing how you view M's behaviors rather than M learning to change all the things pinging off warning bells
--- End quote ---

There's a little bit of unreality in that for me, though. It'll take some time and some more months of single-T and joint-T sessions, probably. But what I am asking my wisest inner self (hellloooo! please come back sooooon!) is this: If M's behaviors ARE warning bells of the personality disorder I was raised to be drawn to and most dread, then perhaps I should NOT change how I view his behaviors.  I believe that too, Hops.  To clarify... I believe you should see what is true and what isn't true about M WITHOUT the old warning bells and red flags of your history pinning your nose to ever pebble and tree so you can't see the forest or field.  I want you to see the filed and forest, and not ONLY the pebbles and trees.  Does that make sense?

Whatever decisions you make... they should be rooted in the present, not in your history. 

If M is your mother, is an N, is toxic.... then that is what he is.

If M is in pain, suffering..... unable to control some of his actions, bc he's human like the rest of us..... if his struggle isn't your mother's struggle, isn't her actions, isn't really THAT.... you should see that clearly.  Whatever its...  I want you to see the truth, calmly, without judgment..... without past or future or ego involvement.
 

If I am over-reacting (layering it over Nmother trauma memories as you astutely mention) then you are right. My goal then would be to de-escalate it and remove its "charge." In my own T work and inner work. So I can stay with M.  Whether you choose to stay with M or not stay.... taking that charge out of your limbic system is something you're worthy of, and can have for yourself.
 It's not about M or seeking out old struggles..... it's about how you SEE, what you see..... CAN you see what's true in your present moment, free of fear and experiences?  I know you can do that, but IME it takes some magic wand dust, gaining spaciousness..... coming to our senses....... and looking at everything without judgment.  If this IS repeating old struggles, and M IS toxic then that's what is true.  If M is a suffering human being, reminding you of your mother bc of experiences, but just a human being pinging off old alarm bells that AREN'T really about him.... then that's the truth.  Maybe all the negative emotions that pop up will dissolve and you'll feel patience and relief instead of dread, worry, doubt, and frustration.  I have no idea.

What I do know is the work is ours.  Learning to SEE with clarity is helpful and good and feels true.  The fear, anxiety, and ego involvement stuff feels sketchy and temporary, IME. Living in our limbic system isn't truth or reality and it's OK to just BE there, notice when we're there, come to our sense and come to the real truth.  Whatever it is. 

I do feel identifying M's behaviors as your "mother's" behaviors, as "N".... is telling a story and it's a big scary story, IMO.  What do you see if you identify M as a human being, product of all his experiences, flawed and suffering..... what do you see as truth for him, for you, between you? 
 

It's not really a binary choice. My challenge, I believe, would be to find out how deeply and how much his N-ish (I am VERY confident using that adjective, with the "ish") behavior distresses me because of its emotional impact on me. Are we truly a good fit?  I don't know, but I trust you to gain some distance, center yourself in your body and figure that out for yourself. 

If it bothers me only a little now and then, and I should look at it with fond benevolence--oh, the little Nboy is acting out, I don't have to react...then the answer's pretty easy. Most of the time I enjoy his company, even though I find him extremely self absorbed. Maidenly, at times.  I don't think M is a little boy, but he has his wounded child within that takes him into his limbic system, just like the rest of us.  Just like you.  Just like me.  When M is IN his limbic system he loses his ability to respond to you in the way you've asked.   It seems he's honored your boundaries at times, and is committed to honoring them... or am I wrong?  Would the couple T say he's trying, committed and working on that for the benefit of the relationship?  If M's truly Nish.... I don't think he could do that, but that's MY experience.  That's MY stuff and it's not fair to SEE M through that lens or the lens you see your mother through. 

I think... 
you know I'm just winging it here, right?  What I'm writing feels true and solid to me.  Whatever outcome... SEEING M clearly, without attaching your mother to him or his actions, seems like it's necessary and helpful, IMO.

I have no dog in this fight, other than wanting you to be OK, safe, and happy.
 I don't want you trapped in a toxic relationship with an N who bullies and controls you through an unhealthy imbalance of power, bc of money.  I also don't want you to SEE M without clarity, make assumptions or attach old stuff or what if fears TO HIM, bc that's just as bad, IMO, as being trapped... maybe. 

If it bothers me so much it shakes me to the core and keeps me awake all night (has quite a few times), maybe I do have to react proactively, in my own self-interest. When I feel strong I can fight for myself. Then there are times I wish I didn't HAVE to be so strong, to be in this relationship. I'd like to feel safe just being however I feel, with him.  I know you're strong, Hops. That can be a double edged sword IF we're working hard to maintain a toxic relationship, fooling yourself, working hard to live in denial bc everyone runs out of energy, everyone ends up drained under those circumstances, IME. 

BUT... if you're hard work is SEEING what's really there, finding it worthwhile and positive in the whole, then doing what you can, that's within your power to bring about homeostasis in the relationship....
trust
comfort
general wellbeing
fellowship
desire for connection as well as time apart...
IF you can break it into more positive pieces, and extinguish the negative pieces bc they were a reaction.... IF they weren't a response to toxic N behaviors that will get worse and lead to misery for both you and M......

Lots of ifs in there, Hops, but I believe you can discern what's real and true and what's old stuff, fear stuff, reactive stuff, wrong stuff. 

My goal isn't so much to be right or in control of everything, as it is to be wise. One friend I've talked about it with sees how much I do NOT want to live on guard, always strategizing my emotional safety, tense about defending boundaries he ignores, and ever-ready to detour around his passive-aggressive stuff during times of tension. There are simply times, particularly as I age, when I would be quite vulnerable to his attitudes and his choices. And I want to be wise around whether M is someone I can trust with my vulnerability long-term.  Again, you have choices.  Discern what's real and SEE the truth or make assumptions.  I think any choice you make will be the right choice. 

This COULD be you replaying old struggles with your mother.
This COULD be M chose you to play the role you played with your mother.
THis COULD be you living in your limbic system, particularly bc of new stresses and bc current/ongoing ones with M ping alarm bells that aren't really about the same danger/crisis/red flags.
 Maybe M isn't worth the trouble.  Maybe he is.  I think you're going to find out.

So far, even after a year and a month, I'm not sure. But it ain't over. I am pretty convinced this is not about the pandemic, but sure as hell is converging with that fear too.  Multiple scary things converge to make super fears pop up.  Watch that video.  It helped me calm myself down, as did the T appt, and SEE things without reactivity lately.  I'm open to whatever the truth is, but I can't see it if I'm living in my limbic system, which is where I've been for the last 2 days.

Just called him as he'd asked. This usually happens when I place the call. He answers hello? And immediately, instantly, launches into a long monologue of whatever he's stored up. It can go on nonstop for 10-15 minutes. Eventually, he remembers to ask about me. I am not sure how interested he actually is, but he manages that courtesy better than he used to.  We all need that person who's our rock.  To listen to everything about us, good and bad.  To understand and validate us.  YOU are M's rock.  He's not YOUR rock. 

You mention he's getting better at asking about you, which means he's changing, at least a bit. I don't know what that change is made of, or if it's based in something you can find comfort in, Hops.

What I remember, growing up with them-thar fancy telephones...was an etiquette that, when someone calls YOU, you say Hello, and then how are you? Or, what's going on? Or such. IOW, a person calls someone to speak to them. With M, the unwritten rule is, someone calls me so I can speak to THEM, and he instantly launches into it. So he speaks first and most, and I get to tag on my own story sometimes, and shorter.  I have to ask myself a question, bc that's a pattern in my life also.  DID I train people to behave that way?  I can tell you I often find myself just wishing the other person will blather on so I don't have to speak.  I also find myself wishing to share and tell my story at times, often without getting the chance.  I know I train people to treat me the way I get treated more often than I realize.  I'm sorting that out, or trying to now.

On the other hand, there are people I've had in my life who are impossible to have an adult exchange with.  I have the feeling you DO have adult exchanges with M, or he wouldn't find you so fascinating, good company.  I also have the feeling his need to be heard and tell you things is SUPER HUGE compared to your need, which perhaps has become even smaller bc M doesn't understand exactly what's going on.
 He pushes in, you pull back.  Your pulling back might be interpreted as something it's not, and I'm babbling at this point about what ifs that need to be sorted into what's true.... what's false. 

I don't expect you to do anything but sort out the truth for yourself, Hops and you're more than capable of doing that for yourself. 

Oh, so familiar. You're right about that!
Rhetorical question....
if something feels familiar, is it the same?
Could it be something else?
Here's how things went for me recently.  IF I can shift into the moment... come back to my senses.... I SEE things from other people's perspectives.  Their flaws, fears, what made them what they are and I can have enough compassion to SEE the truth without becoming emotionally triggered in any way.

IF I'm emotionally triggered, in any way, I can't see the other person's POV, or have compassion for them... and that's an indicator for me. 

I'm not saying having compassion for M means you stay in any type of romantic relationship.  I'm saying that feeling chased and hunted and stressed and pressured and manipulated is typically, for me, an indication I'm living in my limbic system and I can shift into a much better space if I work at it and pay attention.  From THAT vantage point I have more clarity, more ability to respond and make choices about what's real and what's ego/past/future what if stuff.

I trust you'll do what you need to do with M.  I trust you won't make a BIG mistake and if you do.... you can change your mind, shift directions, do something else, ((Hops))  You aren't trapped, but I have a sense you're feeling trapped. 

IF you're seeing things clearly maybe you'll see M is an N, just like your mother, toxic and wrong for you WITHOUT feeling the negative things, bc you've gained emotional distance, access to your entire brain and the ability to see any truth without emotional reactivity. Think of Victor Frankl.  M shouldn't be able to invade your serenity IF you're in control of your biology, and living in the moment, nose off the pebble, seeing the entire field. Are you seeing the entire field, Hops?   Is your nose on a pebble?  Many pebbles? 

Does that make sense?  Lord, I did blather on, but I broke a glass in the kitchen and have to get on the glass break protocol..... a deep cleaning of all surfaces that is definitely OCD.  No doubt about it.  Then I'll enjoy feeling I'm back at my Grandparent's farmhouse, in Grandma's ver clean,  very tidy kitchen.... sacred space for me.

What do you remember about EMDR.  How do you get back in your body?  I remember you talking about ways many years ago...  on this board.  You've been looking at and perhaps practicing this stuff long before I heard of it.  I can tell you this.... it didn't make sense to me until I had a T explain aspects to me so everything came together and clicked.  I heard about it for years, and just couldn't make it work and it had to be THAT one T, her style, her information delivered in the right way for me to process and apply. 

M isn't bad or good.  N or saint.  He's just a guy who's life experiences have made him what he is.  He suffers.... I think that's apparent.  The question is.... can he calm himself down and hear you.... be more responsive and less reactive while he's with you? 

He can or he can't.  If we remove judgment it's easier to see what's real.  If our brains are processing normally we aren't limited to black or white options... we have access to creative problem-solving skills and the spaciousness of more choice, less fear... and we know we're going to be OK, no matter what. You've been through tougher things than this.  You're so smart and competent.  You'll figure it out.

Lighter

Hugs
Hops

--- End quote ---

Hopalong:
Thanks, Lighter. Thanks for all the detail and energy you've put into this.

I think you pose a lot of challenges I can't yet meet: completely unhooking from the N-associations from my past is one. If I could be so Buddha-like as you describe, it wouldn't occur to me to freak out about that. But all I have to go on is my best mingling of past realizations with a desire for those painful learnings to also inform my present, so I don't repeat the same mistakes in sacrificing myself on a cold altar, repeating an old role I don't want to play any more.

It was such a huge role, for so long, that at times it takes what feels like huge energy to push past it. But I wouldn't be examining myself, and M, so closely, if I didn't want it to become easier. I may be gettin' old but I'm going to keep on learning until I croak.

You ease me back into compassion for M, seeing him as a suffering person. I can and do see that. And can be very tender and supportive for him when he's in distress. I just am sorry that he is not that receptive, comforting figure for me. I have to turn elsewhere for calm, supportive comfort when I need it. His need and his anxieties are too great for him to swap rock times with me, alas.

I mostly weather distresses on my own, because I don't find him a reliable or safe partner for those moments.

Tonight I'm way better. Energized all day, getting stuff done. Feeling anchored in myself and much stronger than for the last day or so.

Got my garden beds readied by a friend's son who needs work, and have the veggie seeds soaking overnight. Tomorrow after our Sikh session we'll work together to dribble the seeds down the rows and feel the joy of first planting. I'm hoping our little garden will be a comforting distraction for us both during this siege.

M was extra distressed today because someone in his field, a younger man, died of the virus. His own fear is so intense that he kept saying he wanted to skip our open-air, zero touching, no contact, T appointment. I have to say I agree with my own T's instincts...he just doesn't want to face the conversation that's coming.

I am looking forward to being heard. That's really it. And I feel adult again. My scared child has survived the night and I'm ready for a productive day. (After three weeks lolling about and NOT cleaning my house. Now, I'm in gear...laundry, disinfecting, sheets changed despite my back, etc. Feels good to be engaging in my home and my well being.)

More later, and thanks again...(btw, I've never done EMDR, but maybe this little bit of gardening is going to be what gets me back into the body).

hugs
Hops

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