Voicelessness and Emotional Survival > Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Relationship/s
sKePTiKal:
Ok, this story and the way it was told bothers you Hops. And you're not inflating that to be more than it is, which is also good. So, let him tell the REST of the story about why that came out that way. Maybe that'll change your understanding of why he holds a little bitterness there - or it'll confirm something about him that is difficult to see under his general charisma and charm.
Given the level of discussions that Hol and I have, I've come to see that I still hold a lot of anger about Ex#1 (her dad)... a resignation about the way Ex#2 wouldn't meet me halfway within the relationship... and a little about the subtle ways Michael would stifle me and try to mold me into what he thought I should be. It's still so difficult for me to talk about the things that happened with Ex#1 that despite him living about an hour from here - I will NOT have him visit my house. He's a complex mess of hypocrisy, gaslighting, manipulation and other attributes that I found totally abhorent & horrifying (given my background) that I damn near have a panic attack at the thought that he would just drop in on us unannounced - like he did with Hol out at Steve's. (She was also creeped out by that behavior.)
So yes - when I speak about him I am pretty much 100% negative. Fortunately, I've forgotten so many of the stories and details and have learned how to let the past be the past and not NOW... that I can manage my emotions about it a lot better. Hol's perspective is naturally different than mine - and I acknowledge that difference for her. Just like she's seen with her own eyes, why I might feel the way I do. But he says things about me, that are even much worse than my "warding off the vampire" emotional verbiage STILL. It's been going on for all these years and he's never varied his strange version of the facts.
lighter:
Hops:
I have to wonder if M just doesn't know how to use verbal jujitsu to BE HEARD, and not punished, when speaking about PD behaviors. I remember a thread, or more than one, on this board where I was trying very hard to learn how to DO that. You were helpful. You tried to help me DO THAT. Doc G tried to help me figure it out. I think CB actually showed me with her own post to the same person I was trying to speak about, and it's a very difficult thing to do!
There's so much confusion,and misunderstanding, and the PDs thrive on it. The truth tellers get crushed by it, IME.
Sometimes it's that we fail to gage the moment..... speaking about PDs can be like farting on an elevator, IME.
I wonder why M was talking about it. Did someone else bring up an ex, or a break up, or something that had him chiming in, OR was he using that story to entertain the troops, and misjudged his audience?
I have to wonder if he knows you at all, Hops. How could he not know your radar would go up on that one?
He should be schooled, and I hope you can treat his misteps as opportunity to educate, rather than get defensive.
I hope you can remain curious about his story, and the ex, and her parents, and the children in the middle of this debacle.
Sometimes there's a PD in the middle, manufacturing chaos and confusion. If M is that PD, then you better to know now, than later, IME. I think a few calm conversations about this will give you plenty of answers.
Lighter
Hopalong:
Thanks so much all...I'm so grateful for YOU!!!
Will be quick now as I have to leave shortly (more later) but in brief:
Tupp--your reassurance that I can do this, communicate maturely, is huge. MWAH! Thank you. You always remind me I am more adult than I realize I am. Whew.
Skep--Yes, I get it why you don't allow the ex. I think M has residual hurt and anger, and his refusal to engage w/her makes sense. Just not sure what he's doing w/his kids, the older of whom does want his kids to see her and wants to maintain connection. I also think M has a big ego and competitive drive, which brought him huge success but may have soured their love. His crowing about taking half her pension doesn't sit well. With Real Money at stake their divorce battle must've been bloody. But...ugh. I'm a woman chronically stressed by unequal pay, so it was hard not to feel for her. He said she's fine now, living in a nice house. Just to rattle the branch, I might ask innocently, "Since you don't need it, ever thought of giving back the pension claim?" (No, I won't. But it's tempting!)
Lighter--I don't yet know whether M's ex is PD. Sometimes I'm unsure whether behavior that looks toxic is PD, or is trauma survivor attempts at self defense. Your thoughts make me think, though...and that's the best help. Thank you.
All--I will do my best to find clarity whether it all comes tonight or not. May need to not dig it vigorously all at once, but I'm feeling calmer about it and sense that more insight will come in time. I'm no longer reacting with recoil or anger but will know better how I feel about it once I'm with him again, in an hour.
THANKS for your support, I go forth with wise Amazons at my back!
love, muchly--
Hops
Hopalong:
Morning, Amazons.
Thank you again so much for those messages...soooo helpful.
Talk at M's went okay. I don't think he fully grasped the thing I was trying to convey about how it felt to me to have him holding forth about his ex that way in front of my friends. He said "I don't care if it's not a good look, I was telling the truth!" But he told me a lot more about her, more incidents that did sound strange, hostile, and dramatic. He is very dramatic himself (has told me before he's a "drama queen") but one in particular was memorable. She asked him for a ride into Georgetown one day (they lived outside DC) and wouldn't specify why, so he dropped her off. Later that day he got a call from the hospital, a nurse saying "Your wife is ready to go home" -- she'd had a full facelift without telling him, but didn't arrange her transportation home, so he was rushing to the hospital all freaked out, etc. It was upsetting to him in a big way. They arranged for her to spend one night but to learn about it there, with her all bandaged...was freaky for him. I couldn't think of anything but, She got your attention.
Anyway, with that I felt I'd heard enough. They had a totally toxic, no connection breakdown of their relationship. I do think some of it had to do with his complete focus on ambition and her way of reacting was unhealthy and awful. It sounds as though she did escalate and use a lot of passive-aggressive surprises (facelift, house emptying) and something was very wrong with her. And he wasn't tuned into her at all. Miserable for her, between them, and he was plowing ahead. Ugh.
But I also connected more with understanding that he really was hurt and shocked by the end of it. He has clearly never fully gotten over it and really doesn't want to see her. He said, Well you can meet her at some birthday party, and I could walk over and say, Marete, I'm sorry for everything that happened to you. But every time anyone tries anything conciliatory toward her, he said it gets turned back around in their faces.
I understood better what he's dealing with. Or not dealing with. And I don't think he feels okay about it and tries to manage it through listening to the kids complain about her. (And venting to strange women he's just met.) I told him I thought it'd be a lot healthier if the kids, who are adult men in their 30s, dealt with their Mom stuff with therapists, because talking to him about it so much isn't good for them since he can't give them what a therapist could, imo. Then I just let it go.
It was a tough talk (Pooch was agitated and a good buffer -- "mommy and daddy aren't fighting, we're talking" and tuning in and laughing with/about her helped us reconnect). But we got into a better space.
Weird. Relationships. Trust. And especially for me -- closeness v. recoil. I have to manage my own feelings so I don't over-react, too. The whole thing affected me.
But it's a beautiful day, we'll see each other at exercise class shortly and I work this afternoon. Friday I'll go swim at his place and then we'll eat downtown. I think we're going to work through this. And one good thing was we did talk well. No big argument, but a difficult conversation. It's pretty complicated and I will be well off to stay out of their old stuff, I think.
love
Hops
sKePTiKal:
Since I'm currently experiencing my own "close encounter with extreme unpleasantness from the past"... a couple things, from how I'm trying to thread a path to beyond it.
1. It still feels just as awful, threatening, whirlwindy, steamrolling as it did initially. Every.Single.Contact. That's my problem and I have better coping mechanisms that I engage immediately. It doesn't make the feeling go away; it just allows me to bear it until it subsides.
2. It's not my job to respond anymore to the catalyst that sets that off in me. (Merely, take care of myself.) NO has been said loud and clear, I'm not changing my mind, and I MUST - for my own good - absolve myself from blame & responsibility for any choices or consequences that I don't control that arise from it in the future from that NO. I'm fully free to choose "NO", and I don't have to explain why to ANYONE.
3. There is a very dangerous, volatile and unpredictable anger underlying the fear, confusion, and frustration and horror on the surface of my feelings. Venting that, analyzing while in this state, all lead to higher probability of conflagration. When I'm not feeling this way - is when I can make rational choices and gain insights.
4. I'm well aware my reaction would appear to be out of proportion to actual facts here. I'm owning that; and the experience that's contributed to the feeling that has a life of it's own. But that's how certain I am that I won't touch anything about the situation or this person, with a 10 foot pole.
My previous "no" was apparently not taken seriously or even heard. Fortunately, there are others who a) feel the same way and b) we are united in our response.
Communication isn't possible when you're not actually heard or your feelings accepted as legitimate under the circumstances.
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