Relationship/s

[sKePTiKal]

OH PLEASE...  if we ever stop learning, just shoot me, OK?

Who'd a thunk my biggest challenge was just accepting being happy & loved & protected?
Pleasurable evening here. I have everything my little heart desires. Well, OK, maybe a saner economy would ease my OCD brain... but really, I have no complaints.

I have total faith in you Hops. You're going to find the right place to put your toes on the path... and walk it as you choose. You can DO THIS. Whatever comes. I KNOW you can.

[Twoapenny]

Aw, Hops.  I can understand that you love him and I really wish/hope that he can do something about his monologues and respecting your boundaries, because it does sound as if those bits are the sticking points and it's a shame he's not been able to get on top of that by now.  I suspect that at least if there were a bit of progress in those areas that you wouldn't feel quite so upset by it now (and you have every right to feel upset, by the way).

I think anger can be a good thing and I don't think women do it often enough.  For me it's always when my boundaries are transgressed and boy, how many times have I swallowed that down and just put up with someone talking over me, patronising me, ignoring what I say, feeling me up or whatever else.  I remember saying to a therapist once that I wanted to live a life without fear and he said that was dangerous; fear is your warning system, it's there to keep you safe.  I feel anger is the bedfellow of fear; it comes up when we aren't being heard and that can be dangerous.  So I'm glad you've forgiven yourself for feeling that way.  I don't think it was a bad thing.

FWIW my son does that having to finish what he's saying thing and with him, it is neurological.  I can manage it with him because he's my son so I don't expect him to meet any of my needs.  I wouldn't feel the same about that trait in a partner (and I only mention it because I know how tiring it is to listen to something that you don't want to, or even that you might want to but not right now).

I'm glad the lovely T is so helpful.  He really does sound like a good find.  I hope you are doing okay.  I'm glad the cleaning lady is coming this week - appropriate self care!  That's a good thing xx

[Hopalong]

Thanks for the faith, Amber.
From someone as strong as you, that's hopeful.
I really appreciate that.

Tupp, I think there surely is a neurological component about
some of the rituals and some of the obliviousness.

An additional cause might be Nism a lot more profound
than I'd allowed myself to consider, but I can't/shouldn't try to
diagnose. N-ISH stuff I can handle in some degree. The whole
enchilada, IF that's what this is, I probably can't and shouldn't.

A way some of the behavioral stuff unmoors me and creates
anxiety and stress is that I've come to face that M having made a
promise or an agreement or a commitment about a boundary I'd taken
care to explain was v. important to me--doesn't really mean anything.
He'll break it or push against it or toy with it whenever he wants.

Instead of judging him for it, because I may not fully understand why
he does this...I just need to take care of myself. Evidently, I have a
breaking point and I don't want to visit it again if I can help it.

The ground doesn't feel very firm beneath my feet right now, but I'll
be okay. I'll be seeing him Thursday morning and perhaps on Saturday.
Curious to see how it will go.

hugs
Hops

[Hopalong]

Blundered across this guy,
and though I'd maybe enjoy him
a couple times/day, not for long....

Still. Something about what he says
feels empowering.

Wonder what y'all think?

https://markmanson.net/self-awareness

hugs
Hops

[lighter]

::Erasing post I've worked on and off on today::.

This guys just said what I was trying to say and a whole lot more.

He didn't refer to crouton gate, but he was:

[lighter]

::Erasing post I've worked on several times today::.

This guy just said what I felt was important to say, and a whole lot more.

He didn't refer to crouton gate, but he made me laugh, which I enjoyed more than editing down my super long, super earnest post, over and over again. 

Thank God you shared that, Hops.
Lighter

[sKePTiKal]

I know it's early yet, but I wondered how you're feeling now Hops?

Anything morph, transform or dissipate yet?

[Hopalong]

Thanks for checking, Amber.
Well, the truth is I spent many hours recently watching the Surviving Narcissism series on YouTube, a Dr. Les Carter. He's a Christian counselor in Texas which normally would send me screaming (the last time I trusted a Christian counselor he practically shoved me into a disastrous marriage since he was so uncomfortable about my single sex life). BUT...Carter seems kind and rational and quite knowledgeable. Doesn't mention his religion (I googled him). He's got a narcissism-counselor industry going on, and there are lots of crappy ones. Still, I'm inclined to trust him. Would love to know what y'all think. His videos are basic and not long.

It's easier to think of M as Carter refers to it...having "highly narcissistic traits" rather than dubbing him "NPD" which isn't appropriate to do to anyone if you're not a professional, I suppose (unless that person is a powerful famous example who's trying to destroy the country, should there be anybody like that in the news).

Anyway. Although I'm seeing M tomorrow and Saturday, the truth is I've been thinking pretty calmly that this relationship is winding down (for me). M just sweetened up again (of course) and is sending charming messages, little offers to do this or that. The love-bombing begins. I remember clearly the cycle: Love-Bomb, Devalue, Discard. I don't think M would discard me as he's pessimistic about finding a new partner and always says I'm THE one, etc. But I might be wrong. He might get right out there again.

If we do get to the denouement, it's not going to be fun, and I sure won't race out there again. How would you date with masks on, anyway? LOL. But eventually.

Although I'd be pleased and amazed to see sudden self-awareness or apologies or insight from M, I'm truly not expecting any of that. Last couple of days after a few talks with friends, I've found myself thinking about being on my own again pretty calmly. And unless there is some astonishing turnabout from M, or some serious accountability for his contributions to the distress....then I don't want to live with or marry this man. And because of how N-ish people classically react to breakups, if I get to that decision, it would be better to make a clean complete break, rather than a wobbly "let's be friends" compromise. Everything I've read or watched suggests that an N-ish person will absolutely exhaust you with maneuvers and strategems to get your attention back or restart things at the level they want them to be.

I'm a little stunned but also relieved that I'm thinking clearly for a change. I think the subliminal constant stress of M's personality (much of which he cannot help) has contributed to brain fog in me. I can feel that diminishing just at the idea of moving on, even though I haven't stepped across the bright decision line quite yet.

I think CB was onto something when she said the times she erupted in anger gave her clarity. It doesn't make my lack of adequate assertiveness M's fault, nor is it his fault I didn't have a mature response in the moment, but I do feel as though a large industrial fan has blown through my head.

Good boundary-tending is intentional and sometimes difficult work even in the most ordinary of situations. With a bullish, obsessive, brilliant and competitive personality like M's, it may just be too advanced for me. It's not worth my serenity or my health, even if I do wind up in a crap nursing home (very likely, unless I manage to off myself peacefully first when I'm 89). I think I'd be better off with someone who's mellower. Buck's lazy twin brother.

I'll talk to my own T this afternoon, too. That will help.

hugs
Hops

[Hopalong]

Seriously, people.
This is very important.
I too can be obsessive.

The thing is, I cringe to inform you,
Croutongate is ONE word.

We shall royally grant you the option of
whether or not to capitalize it, like Watergate.
We are kind that way. It's a royal trait.

[I actually just emailed the guy with the funny
intersting website to explain that he had a line
in the Three Levels of Self Awareness article where
he goes, What are your ticks? I could not rest. I
HAD to tell him ticks are bloodsuckers but he
meant tics (twitches). I tried to be funny. But now
you see the compulsive editoritis, embarrassingly.]

We perhaps have better things to do, such as remove
some of the acres of horizontal-surfaces clutter and mess
that Must Be Gone by 9am or all is lost when the palace maid
comes, because she won't be able to do anything other than
push around the little animals that are all over the floors. These
are the result of an unplanned breeding experiment between
dog hair clumps and dust bunnies. We have probably tried that
little witticism here before but prefer to disavow Our senility.

I love you guys.

Hops

[Hopalong]

I doooooo see what you did there! LOL!

I really miss my VESMB emoticons.

hugs
Hops

[sKePTiKal]

The royal proclamation has been heard!

Further attention to flat surfaces will be promptly accomplished for the sake of their calming "space". (And hiding the "evidence" of things we know aren't really - but MIGHT BE important - should the laser focus return to cull the wheat from the chaff.

ROTFLMBO Hops... this is a good sign. As is your calm contemplation of alternatives to continuing to struggle with this. I still believe you can find your best path forward for you.

Now, time to hunt dust wabbits!!

[lighter]

Yeeeeee, Hops.  You're so much more relaxed... just, more you again.

Lighter

[Hopalong]

Thanks, Lighter!

Amber...waaaay back on Sept. 25th, you wrote this (and occasionally something similar):

I saw some disturbing patterns emerging in your recent description. Disturbing for me; if I was in your shoes. I'm not going to go into them because you seem to be trying sort out the "why" or reason behind them yourself; quite well actually. That reason will be damned important going forward.

Do you feel ready/able to tell me more about that? I'd appreciate it.

hugs
Hops

[sKePTiKal]

I mighta just been a pompous, defensive, ass saying something like that. And tired of getting crucified (as it so often occurs around here at the farm) for my simple observations or personal opinion. Even after it's been solicited. I've gotten pretty good at saying something, without "saying" anything.

But I believe (without looking back at what was going on) that you were already struggling with him talking over you; just ignoring your requests; doing what you'd already explained you didn't want or didn't like. And apart from melodramatically slapping him (a la old fashioned romance novels) I was pretty sure that you weren't going to be able to get his attention long enough for him to realize that these things are REALLY IMPORTANT to you - and no one can say they should or shouldn't be. And realize that wanting you to be happy enough to be with him - he might need to incorporate your wishes into how he behaves with you. (And why, o universe, don't some people already have that instinct??)

And you're so patient Hops; you kept trying till you cracked. Giving him chance after chance.

I think I was wanting to say - you shouldn't have to work THIS HARD on the little things. And that perhaps these little things are simply inherent incompatibility that no amount of therapy will overcome. If that appreciation for you - and respect for how you want to interact with people, including him, isn't there now - I just don't think that's teachable.

All these months later, you're still struggling with this. I dunno about you, but I don't want to have to retrain, housebreak a man just to be able get along on a daily basis. And the romance and attraction dissipate, if I end up with a custom-trained "pet on a leash"... instead of a man, who's free and already compatible with my quirks... and wants to be with ME, without trying to do exactly the same thing - re-educate me, train me to suit him. When do you get to the actual living and being with each other part? Enjoying yourselves? Together?

It absolutely pains me, to say this by the way. You DESERVE someone who cares enough to freely give you what you need & want from your partner sometimes, and not always expect you to be the person giving; bending; meeting his needs/wants. A relationship language shouldn't feel like an "acquired skill". Or performance metrics. Or constant critiques or analysis.

And like I said - this is through my rose-colored glasses of what I want in a relationship. Other people can make other kinds of decisions, for more practical reasons. That's their perogative and I can't judge that. And even when security was high on my list of wants from a relationship, it didn't outweigh this basic compatibility between personalities. For me.

And I just caught it - Sept 25th was Mike's & my wedding anniversary date. Not that it means anything in this context.

I dunno Hops. Perhaps I've been exceedingly lucky (or deluded! always possible) and am just a crazy old romantic. Love and relationships do require some work - from time to time. But that shouldn't be the daily existence experience. After all I've lived through, I don't want to have to work that hard. Either all that is there at the get-go, or is quickly agreed to and maintained... no sweat... or it's not. And it DOES happen that one falls in love with a person who's just naturally compatible.

[Hopalong]

I cannot thank you enough for this caring straight talk, Amber.

Literally cannot because I was just out in a friend's mountain
back yard drinking...a fair amount of....lovely wine.

When my eyes uncross I will write more on this, but again, I
so appreciate your perspective. A lot. Nothing unkind about it.
Just the facts, ma'am. (Pompous? NO!)

No forced decision but I sure do have ease around the idea of
letting things take a different course. We'll see how that weathers.

Gratefully,
Hops