Relationship/s

[lighter]

I think we can have second act relationships with people we've dared.  I've had all kinds of relationships with men I've dated or been married to.  Sadly, the old stuff popped back up when romance was involved, but friendships remain syrong.  There's lifelong connection with several of these men.

As Tupp said, maybe maintaining separate households changed relationship with M into something safe.

Lighter

[Hopalong]

Lighter, I'm really happy for you that you've kept strong positive connections with previous loves. That's encouraging! Do you feel open to the possibility of a new romantic relationship or marriage at some point down the line? Or does life feel better with you and Ds and not focusing there? (Please don't poke if not up to it.)

Tupp, that's really the relationship we're already in now. Exactly what it is. It's just complicated for me, because I want more. Greedy.

The problem is that what I want (which doesn't mean M has to be the solution) is not to live alone. I've been alone over 20 years and it's too long. (Decade in Nmom's house was worse than alone.) I want a love AND life companion, including daily life.

I might not find one. If M and I are now experiencing all we can manage in that arena, it probably won't happen. All the things that broke our bond before might come right back if we tested it. And there's no guarantee that it ever will even with someone new. But my dream (dare I say it feels like a need, now that my health is more fragile than I'd faced) of a shared-life companion rather than just a break-the-tedium or occasional-comfort companion ... is still what it's been since the beginning. I want someone to comment over a daily headline with. Or offer a cuppa when I'm making one, or vice versa. That's it, really. But I yearn for the comfort of that level of presence and home-building. Told M on our first date that I would like to marry again. Off the top on the table, because ... well, that's what I would like. I'm clear about it.

I think chances are pretty high that despite our present relative intimacy because of the pandemic, M might just revert to his usual remarkable self-absorption levels once times are "normal" again so my desire/goal/need for a lived commitment with a compatible partner just would go on the back burner. I'm not expecting it with him, just trying to deal with our new shape without fantasizing, which is dangerous for me. He is still who he is and has a right to be himself. I think he's torn between the emotional security I offer and his freedom, partly because of it, to feel safe and secure again so he can screen out everything but scholarship (including me). He likes seeing me but on a rigid schedule. His (dinner) schedule. That mostly works for me in the ways you and Lighter describe, but days do get lonely. I suspect his wives felt the same way. One couldn't cope; one got sacrificially involved with church and charity. I would want a middle ground, if that were possible to craft.

I have the right to be myself too. Any time I'm sick or lonely or dealing with injury or health scare and it's cold and gray and friends don't phone or email since they're all using FB or getting together isn't possible or practical....it mounts up. A person in a building with you who cares makes a difference. Old age alone in a building or apartment is not what I want for myself. It may --likely-- happen to be what I get as so many older people do, and I'll keep re-making peace with it in the present and remind myself to be grateful. But it's not what I want, which is why I'm trying to stay pretty alert about what's happening (and not happening) with M.

I would like a mate. So. Right now I have a friend I love who is not really a mate. Whom I used to dream was becoming my mate. But now isn't (despite just inviting me to go to California with him when restrictions are gone--I couldn't answer). He likes a travel companion and he likes me in that role. It's weird. Like...we're almost everything we were before but without the security of commitment or a physically shared home or plan that includes us both (house-hunting was hell until I realized he wasn't all in). And of course that's how it is. For now, it's okay. If I stay in the now, and if I'm not sick/scared/lonely, it's okay. It's just weird.

Come spring I hope I will have the confidence to continue dating. I've emailed with a couple guys from that website. But basically, I don't do online real-time chat and prefer to wait until we can meet (summer?) before correspondence. I liked Dr. Sills' advice. Don't get all woozy over anybody you haven't physically met. Don't invest much time in correspondence until you have that coffee date and check chemistry.

I think all this posting in the R-thread today is because I'm feeling wobblier than last time I was checking in about M-friendship, because of the hospital visit. I feel quite vulnerable today. I've written my cousin to ask about her father, my mother's brother, who had multiple TIAs before he died. Given mom's big stroke and his history, I think genes are at play here. They're just acting up too damn EARLY!!

I'm just kind of scared. Feeling vulnerable. Alone is harder than usual right now.

Amber, I'm really glad you protect yourself from seeing Hol's Dad, since he's clearly very triggering for you. If that eases with age then maybe. But if not, that's the beauty of boundaries.

Something I wrote a friend the other day pops into my head thinking about you and your ex and I'm not sure why. But fwiw, see if anything resonates:

I actually think that along with individual strengths,
there is a degree of fragility in me. M used to call me that and I'd become furiously defensive. But in a sense, the way I'm made IS sensitive to the point
that I may need to create for myself protections that other kinds of bears may not.
And it's nobody's job but my own, really, to speak up, set
boundaries comfortably, and just putter on being myself.
(Couldn't stand M's observation which, if I'd agreed,
would've led to even more domineering paternalism. But
there's definitely truth in it.)

I think I'm ready to tell myself that this truth (part not all of me) is okay.
Maybe we don't all have to be STRONG all the time.

hugs,
Hops

[sKePTiKal]

Oh good lord no - we can't always be the strong one. And when we do touch our more fragile places, it's a strong want, maybe a need of mine, that my partner be aware enough of me; that he knows me well enough... to be that strong guy without just taking over. Someone who helps me regain my equilibrium & balance - not someone who says: I'll take care of that for you.

It's such a delicate ballet; it's so easy to hurt feelings or hit one of those triggers where one temporarily reverts to old stuff instead of dealing with "what is" in the moment.

It sounds like it would be wonderful thing if there were enough older, interesting folk right in your actual neighborhood that you all could group up for mutual assistance and relaxed social connections. Sort of an "over the hill gang" of singles where you could mingle and participate in activities at your leisure and convenience. Assuming life ever resembles all the available activites that once existed again.

[Twoapenny]

Oh, Hopsie, okay, I understand better now, I had got the wrong end of the stick (I must read posts after I have coffee in the morning and not before!).  So M is out of the picture regardless - a relationship with him doesn't work because of various aspects of his personality that are too much and a lesser relationship with him won't work because it doesn't meet the need for close daily contact (which I can understand completely).  Okay, I think I see the situation more clearly now (and yes, can completely understand how the need not to be alone intensifies when unwell or something equally difficult to deal with comes along.  Makes perfect sense).

It makes sense to me not to date until you can meet in person.  I tried very hard with online dating years ago and made that mistake of building a 'relationship' via email and text only to meet in person and find there was just no chemistry at all.  It is very disappointing and just a real waste of everyone's time so it makes sense to hang on until meeting up in person is possible.  I do hope very much that someone lovely pops up and things just get easier.  It's all such hard work!  I do envy people who just find 'the one' and it all happens very organically.  For whatever reason some of us have to work a lot harder at it and it's very draining.  I hope you're feeling a bit better today xx

[Hopalong]

a relationship with him doesn't work because of various aspects of his personality that are too much

It's BOTH of us. I'm so scared of being controlled and he's a big controller....and my personality is no walk in the park either.

a lesser relationship with him won't work because it doesn't meet the need for close daily contact

I don't need apron strings or to be smothered in attention. I would like to share a home. I would like to marry. The kind of intimacy I yearn for is more about morning sunlight and tea and a comment on a headline, and watching good programs together in the evenings, than anything grand. He'd like to jet around the world until he drops.

You're right though, I'm mostly just scared about the brain stuff.

It was helpful to read the black-and-white way you put it: "doesn't work" and "won't work." Hmmmmm. Must ponder.

I don't know that our current relationship, because we are in one now, "doesn't work." It is what it is and is a great comfort to me, and to him too. It's just that I haven't let go of the dream. Marriage, shared home, tea and TV. Simple stuff.

The "won't work" because of personality incompatibilities (his and mine) may be the bottom line. Except: he is mellower, I am more grateful, he's trying to listen, I'm trying to be less anxious. It's hard not to feel hope since we still love. Heart spark.

Who knows? I'm working on trying to accept that everything is unknowable to some extent, get my butt back in the present, which is:

--sunlight streaming in on apricot Pooch (her golden hour): I LOVE morning
--my SAD light doing its aquarium best to tell my brain all is well today
--a specific plan for today: ONE thing, maybe two, I'd like to accomplish

Thanks, Tupp. You're very patient.

hugs
Hops

[sKePTiKal]

Wise choice, to stick with the present - and just experience it as it is - instead of giving in to the temptation of fantasy, Hops.

Looking back over how things transpired, it seems to me you finally got M to take you seriously about how interacting with him, when he's in certain modes, affected you - and that it REALLY affected you. This was accomplished by breaking up. It's unfortunate that sometimes that's the only way for some people to put themselves in your shoes; to see things from your point of view. (If that's what's happened.) And when it only happens occasionally and to a lesser degree... most of the time, people can absorb it and rock on. Some people do wait for a later time, to bring it up and discuss it in detail rather than address it in the now.

Whether or not this is a permanent awareness change, or better managing one's personal impact of the other, or some of everything, only time and experience will tell. But, I do suspect that you'll both learn things about yourselves and each other, and how you guys work together from all this. I get the sense that neither of you feel the previous form of relationship nor the current one was/is a waste of time.

I know I said, you shouldn't have to work so hard to feel heard & emotionally safe in a relationship. Emotional safety and being able to be taken seriously are critical (for me) in any relationship. IMO, without those two things love isn't possible. But we all understand, define and perceive things differently. And even the same person can perceive things in more than one way - some of that's dependent on that ability stand in the other's shoes and look at things from their perspective (and their way of interacting with the world, background, insecurities, education, experience ad infinitum).

But neither should it be such hard work for the other person to wish me safe & heard - and assume their part in that process. The two pieces need to be balanced for stability and resilience in the relationship. IMO.

I'm just glad you're in such a comfortable space with things right now and know how to keep them that way for yourself.

[Twoapenny]

Well I think you should be scared of being controlled, Hopsie, it's a horrible way to live your life and a nasty form of abuse that's often difficult to spot so I think being frightened of it is very sensible.

I like the plan for the day; one or two things to accomplish and power charging Pooch with sunshine   Winter sun is lovely, I bet she looks like a fuzzy gold bear   Lol xx

[lighter]

Hi, Hops:

I'm not against happy partnering and relationship.  I'm allergic to negative/unhealthy/ toxic people.

New connection would be welcome if the right doors open....I'd likely step through.

Lighter

[Hopalong]

Good attitude, Lighter.

Hope that door opens if and when you're ready and he's right.

hugs
Hops

[lighter]

I've read The Gift of Fear many times, Hops.  What are you referring to in chapter 2?

Lighter

[Hopalong]

Don't recall a specific point from it, but I think Chap. 2 is where he really drills down on intuition. In the case of fear, it's spidey sense. He also talks about how women in particular are socialized to mistrust their own inner wisdom, their observations, their actual capacities to sense what is safe and good and what is unsafe or dangerous.

I'm such a huge proponent of the idea of inner wisdom and don't believe it's a clear voice from a cumulus cloud. It works that way (a lot) in poetry. Where a good metaphor comes from is deep listening, but without clenching.

(If that makes sense.) I just was so thrilled by his respect for that kind of process and wisdom...it's delicate, profound, elemental and amazing...and exists in every human being.

But we're not taught to know it or trust it, so we live kind of deformed lives sometimes.

That help? Sorry I don't have the PDF open but I think Chapter 2 is revolutionary and inspiring. Even beyond the question of self-defense or physical safety. It said a lot to me about life. (Especially life as a woman in a male-dominated and still male-run and -- yep I love men -- male-distorted culture. Women get distorted too, it's in reaction to a power system that squats on our heads. And men are so harmed also.)

hugs
Hops

[lighter]

Yes. 

Intuition.

Sadly, I read that book many times, along with Strong On Defense, and never really felt...
No.

Never could give myself permission to honor my instincts, which were very good in hindsight.

I felt compelled.....reactive, I guess, to honor the people around me... Who I cared about.

Call it codependent, or need to be accepted or desire to please and seek approval, whatever it was.  It was programmed INTO my brain very early.

I'm glad you're getting so much from the book, Hops. 

For me it was information without all the nuts and bolts I needed to shut out everyone's voices AND listen to my instincts consistently.

Lighter

[Hopalong]

I see this as helpful, ironic, and centering.
Had a lovely evening with M for dinner, hadn't seen him in a week.
He clearly was very happy Pooch and I were there. I enjoyed it too.
He was seriously excited and positive about the poem.

Later he writes:
Come for dinner on the 14th, please.

I reply:
Re. 14th, imo we should tiptoe, talk a bit about whether
we are in VDay mode or should impose it on ourselves
without sharing something true about what and how and whence....?
Alternatively, I can come the 13th....

He replies:
Okay, the 13th then.

LOL.

Pretty clear that there will be No Talking About "IT."
Even though IT is obvious he still has strong feelings and attachment and I've got them too. The stalemate is where we and IT sit. There's just no acrimony, and no sense of future. Random remarks about older age, but nothing direct about what we could choose to do together. I'm still glad to be in friendship but this helped me re-extinguish some small hopes that over time, he'd be ready to risk actually talking about feelings and future plans. Not yet. Maybe not ever.... Ultlimately, reality is my friend too and a closer one than M. Knew all this, and this little dialogue was just a good, centering reminder about where we are. Undefined, full of feeling, but not something to re-hitch my wagon to.

Without some adult conversation ABOUT our relationship I don't think it's likely I'll continue indefinitely in the exact same way. I'll always care about him of course, but probably won't be planning my life keeping him at the core of it. Or, maybe I will.

I don't even have to know right now and strangely, I'm fairly content not knowing. But asking me over for Valentine's Day evening? That confused me. His answer? Also confused me a bit.

I'm fine. It's just weird. Not pushing anything, just observing.

hugs
Hops

[Twoapenny]

Aw, Hopsie.  My outsider's take, for what it's worth, is that you meet M's needs (which is why he invited you over for Valentine's Day) but that he isn't interested in meeting yours (hence going for the 13th rather than talking).  Personally I am hoping that you don't plan your life around him and that you spread your net far and wide as soon as it's safe to do so, so that you can meet someone with the emotional intelligence and self awareness that you need to be happy and healthy (and to be honest I don't think any relationship can be happy and healthy unless both parties are self aware, emotionally astute and capable of having open and honest discussions about anything that needs to be discussed). I don't mean that in an unkind or critical way, but I do think he shows you time and time again that he can't/won't give you what you need.  I don't think he particularly cares that he's controlling, or that he's so uptight about cooking that it makes you anxious, or about the nastiness he showed that time you were on holiday or the night you went home in tears after you asked him to stop (I think it was a time you were being intimate) and he didn't.  I think if he cared about those things he'd be working on fixing them himself.  I am glad that reality is your friend and that you're keeping it that way and I hope it's possible to just enjoy the meal (regardless of the date ) and, of course, it's just my opinion, I may have got the wrong end of the stick and be speaking out of turn - in which case feel free to ignore and apologies will be extended xx xx xx

[Hopalong]

No apologies needed, Tupp! I like your straightforward seeing.

And I don't disagree with anything you've pointed out. For me the question lingers whether it's he "can't" or "won't." For now, I assume it's won't. But I'm not upset or angered by it. It's just a timely private re-recognition of where M is and how he is.

I'm getting pretty comfortable in the moment. It's just a bit weird. So clear that he'd care for me (if I were ill) at least for now. As I would for him. But I think maybe that's all he's up to devoting. He'd secure my future, as long as it was his way. Talking through how we feel about things, actually looking together and hearing each other equally? Not yet and likely not ever possible, unfortunately.

I'd like a relationship like the one you describe, and the kind of talking and communicating Amber often describes. Meanwhile, important friendship is a gift during all this isolation. I'm sure things will shift once we're out of Covid jail.

Honestly it really did make me laugh a little. I'm sorry he's so afraid of real intimacy. I feel badly for him. But it was a good and timely reminder.

Thing is, I feel good that I didn't go along with his Valentine's plan. Wasn't fussed, just pointed out it didn't fit for me without any talk about where we are. And still just the same I'll look forward to the 13th.

A whole lot of my tension over our relationship seems to have drained away. I just am not motivated to start some campaign to re-try to convince him about anything. I do think my 3-month absence from his life woke him up to a degree. It made him more conscious of his behavior and me more conscious of my attitude. All good.

Woke me up too. If I keep my health going and continue to leave my writing door ajar, things could go in a really good direction.

hugs
Hops