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I just found out - should I tell his daughter?

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Alan:
CC:

I appreciate the words.  After listening to the radio program, the way it was edited, leaves the basic info, very little justifaction, etc.

I'm glad we can agree to disagree.  If I was able to do that with my N, then things might have been different.

Ella:
Thanks, CC and Alan, for your comments. Actually it was Vaknin's site  that clued me in on this whole thing to start with. I read as much as I could find on his site (the Q&A's as well as the articles). But given that this is such an important situation, I'd like to check out what other experts in the field have to say. I did feel that Vaknin might be a little biased.

FYI, the timing couldn't have been better. I recently sold my house and moved to an apartment close to my daughter's new school. Then just this weekend we found out that the 3 bed apartment downstairs from my fiance's will be available at the end of the month. He'd like me to move there instead, so I could then share some of that space with him (but he'd keep his own apartment too in case he "needed a break" from me).  Anyway based on Vaknin's info I have zero interest in this arrangement and was able to say "No" without feeling quilty or questioning whether I was being "fair".  Maybe in two years when my daughter's out of school and IF I don't have to work a day job - he likes to stay up all night and plays loud music whenever the mood suits him; anytime I stay over with him I have to plan that it will be a 24 hour date and take a nap ahead of time.

Acappella:
Hi Ella,

Congratulations on the confident "No" to an arrangement that sounded like it took your fiance into account more than you and your daughter.  After listening to the radio program Alan alerted us to, I am increasingly confident that being self absorbed or egotistical isn’t the core of narcissistic behavior so much as being self serving at the expense of and with disregard and disrespect of the needs of others, particularly the expressed needs of others: feeling entitled with a lack of empathy for the impact of that entitlement.  Your fiancé’s apartment sounded like it was all about, and only about his needs and that seems a very clear danger sign.

Here is a link I found helpful in providing some more detailed perspective regarding Vaknin and narcissism:
The specific page linked to here reviews Vaknin’s book and is from a site referred to (if I recall correctly) by Richard Grossman in one of his posts.

http://healingnpd.org/Vaknin-revisited.html

Thanks again Alan for the radio show alert!  I found it very informative and even a little entertaining to boot!  :D How refreshing.

I too just discovered this narcissism system I've been struggling in and was relieved to find Vaknin's site.  I felt so extremely exhausted, alone and beaten down that Vaknin’s ardent, feverish tone felt like a strong dose of protectiveness.  His subtext of no body being worse than a narcissist (a competitive world view in which even when he looses he wins that "scarce" resource, attention and power) was like a megaphone yelling, “get out while you can”, “save yourself!”.  I needed that to stay in my relationship with my husband with N traits and I needed that also to (seriously) consider leaving him.  To move on I also feel I needed more than Vaknin's limited perspective could offer.  

I also noticed something odd in Vaknin’s text.   (Not necessarily the “me” thing as I have heard that speaking from “I” is acknowledgement of owning what one is expressing.  People often use “you” when speaking of themselves and once aware of that I caught myself doing so when I was uncomfortable owning what I was saying.   Does that apply to using “me”?  CC? )  Anyway, he wrote about no other narcissists except himself (instead of Narcissism Revisited should have entitled it Vaknin's Narcissism Revisted).  Also he made narcissism sound so grandiose, a super/sub human condition. It was if he had some sort of vested interest in Narcissism not being treatable.  He was lacking empathy and compassion (and the insight it brings) while he wrote about his own lack of empathy and compassion.  Well that makes sense doesn't it!   :shock:

Take & give care all,
Echo's voice  :D

Acappella:
Ella,

Should you tell your fiancé’s daughter?

That to me is tricky.  

Yes, I agree passing along resources is a responsible, compassionate part of being part of a team, a family, a society.

I also wonder: Have you already discussed your concerns about the narcissism with your fiancé?  Doing so before passing along information to his daughter also seems to me an important part of being consistent with the values of being responsible, and compassionate and respecting your fiance even if he doesn't reciprocate.  Scary perhaps too?  

My husband with N traits has been most receptive when I presented the Narcissist topic with the admission that I too have "complementary" issues or I wouldn't have spent so much time with him.  

His (your fiance's daughter) is lucky to have you in her life as a person who cares enough to share resources and is actually capable of showing that is part of caring.

Ella:
Echo,
I appreciate your input. I had checked out Dr. Grossman's site - lucky me, I live in Boston, so I plan to see if he has openings.

I also found a site that is moderated by four diagnosed narcissists who have been in therapy. NPD: Ask a Narcissist, at http://frost.bbboy.net/healnpd-viewforum?forum=33

My fiance is probably at his lowest point ever as far as self esteem goes, as he's been looking for work for over a year. I think that has certainly contributed to the problems, he's become much more sensitive to imagined slights/threats. We actually had a conversation a few weeks ago (about whether anyone could seriously think that they were always right) in which I finally threw up my hands and said "Yippee! I'm always wrong. Now I don't have to take any responsibility. I'm finally liberated!"  
Which did make him laugh and see how ridiculous the argument is. "Yes! I'm trying to liberate you!"

So this might not be the best time to confront him with more "faults". However, he does think that me going for counseling is a good idea, so maybe something can grow out of that.

I am divided on the issue of what to share/not share with his daughter. A big negative is that he hasn't been medically diagnosed. A plus is that it could help her see that he's not consciously trying to be a jerk, so she wouldn't internalize that, and she might also pick up some coping strategies. It won't be an issue for a couple of months yet since she stayed overseas - so it's something to discuss with a counselor.

Something else I want to share with respect to the earlier discussions about Vaknin. My fiance's father is a very well known psychotherapist. Both he and the mother have told me that they are so happy that I'm in thier son's life - one says "that he is a totally different person" and the other says "for which we are all grateful."  At first it really confused me (not to mention alarming!), but now I wonder what dynamic has been going on.  I truly do value many aspects of his personality - maybe having this "legitimate" source of NS has had an effect on him.

I am encouraged that you have been able to discuss the subject with your husband. I too feel stronger knowing what I'm dealing with, or that at least it has a name. What I still don't know is whether this is what I want/need in my life. (But he took the No on the apartment pretty well.)

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