Voicelessness and Emotional Survival > Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Twoapenny:
--- Quote from: Garbanzo on July 19, 2019, 05:27:48 AM ---I'm scared of water too. A warm private pool okay but ocean or rivers nah. invisable slime monsters
You get like anxiety and panic when you talk about yourself? I guess if you are afraid of losing a friendship you would do anything to keep them, not rock the boat, be agreeable etc.
--- End quote ---
Exactly the same for me, G - I'm okay in water if I can see clearly and my feet can touch the ground and it's enclosed, like a pool. I'll happily paddle in a stream or at the edge of the ocean but not being able to see what's down there, touch the ground, worrying about waves, rip tides, gusts of wind that knock you off course - nah! It's not a relaxing experience for me. Even boats; I get so sick just on a flat, faintly moving surface that it's best just to avoid them. Lol.
Yes, lots of anxiety, I am far more focused on the other person and making them feel comfortable. Which is okay in short bursts. But I find it really hard, for example, to just say to someone, "oh, I just read a book/saw a film/read an article about................." in case it's something they're not interested in, in case they've never heard of it and they feel daft for not knowing about it, in case they think I'm weird for talking about something they've never heard of, in case it's a topic they find offensive, in case it makes them say something that I find offensive. I think I just see opening up as a risk, plus when I do see people it's often in public places so I'm very conscious of what people around us are hearing as well. I think I probably just think too much! Should just talk and not think, it would probably be easier :) Lol
Something very interesting has just happened, though. I've been talking to a friend who lives some distance away about how much I've been struggling recently, and she's just called to tell me they've booked a holiday nearby to coincide with my birthday next month so that we can spend the day together. Now how utterly lovely and sweet and kind is that. Made me cry. And then also made me think, how do I attract someone that kind, lovely and thoughtful - and also attract people who suck every last ounce out of me and then chuck me on the ground when I say I'm too tired to do anymore? And now I'm thinking again! Lol, I'm going to go to the shop and think about groceries; it's easier :) Have a nice weekend, G xx
Hopalong:
I get it, (((((((((Tupp)))))))) -- the possibility of parasite people.
My empathic heart led me into toxic relationships too, and plenty of them.
But in years and years of working on my relationship with myself,
I did get better at it. I can enjoy both solitude and togetherness better, where the latter used to leave me brittle, scared and full of anxiety.
What I should have added about making friends sometimes when the other person
is as or more lonely than I am...it's more often been that the person is coping
with grief, illness, being new to town -- transitory life situations that I can relate to and offer
friendship by just making some time for them. If they seem permanently sealed in self-absorption, personality wise, I'm not attracted to making a connection. Because I know my stress limits and can't take on pure dependency. I can just "feel" that now, when I feel those tentacles coming from someone. I can sense toxicity (and indifference) much better than I used to, in my years of trying to milk turnips and suck water from rocks.
BUT. And it's a BIG "but." Some years back I figured out that the most toxic thing I was
doing was not being my own compassionate friend, who needs RECIPROCITY. Not just
proximity. Reciprocal interest (taking turns though sometimes with stretches where it's one-way because of a crisis situation, so not necessarily 50-50) and reciprocal caring.
Even with being tuned in to a new person's needs, these days, if the reciprocity of
support or interest doesn't appear early (despite what they're going through, it's just decent behavior to show SOME awareness--not in the acute pit of grief, of course, but in most situations), I will gently back out of forming an emotionally close connection. If they become stronger and reach out again later, then perhaps a new friendship is ready to be built. Or not.
I have a friend from grad school who's currently dying in a city not too far from here. She reached out to tell me (we'd been not close for years but I remained loyal) and was glad when I offered to visit. And when I wrote her about my M news, she was very happy for me, asking several questions, etc. I was touched by that. Our lifestyles and values weren't compatible for consistent closeness, and the interest was not reciprocal for a long time which really hurt me. But I never hated her for abandoning me (we'd been very close when younger), just grieved over it and finally accepted it completely. This end-of-life conversation opportunity is meaningful to me. I'll be glad to give her comfort. Partly because even in her situation, she has the grace to care about what's happening in my life too.
Instant grace or belated grace, I'm ready for it any time it can happen. Can't be forced but it does appear sometimes. In the meantime, it does help me love (and other times, forget) myself when I can extend love a bit. (When I'm OVER-extended, which you can relate to so much Tupp -- I don't go looking for that. I just keep it in mind as a general principle...reciprocity needs to manifest EARLY, before a strong attachment. Then it's not painful to gently step back from a new connection BEFORE it becomes a friendship, when I can see reciprocity isn't going to happen there. I can do it without anger or blame or judgement now. But for a long time, I couldn't, because I took it so personally. (Thanks, Mom....)
I've come to believe opportunities for friendship are actually abundant. All around me. It's been my own pain or fear that have prevented me from the enjoyable, easy, confident "catch and release" kind of approach. Like practicing. Trying it out with someone. Pleased when it works, let it go quite peacefully when it doesn't.
It's hard to just "go with the flow" when we need people and phamilies so deeply it feels like water. So we just have to keep giving ourselves water and working at it...how to grow connections.
I think the "how does that person not know this about me so they wouldn't suggest such an insensitive thing" is exactly what my friend who was mad at me for not taking care of her feelings (about the other friend she disliked being at my house that day) said to me.
And in my experience, she's risking wasting what has been a friendship we both valued. And because she decided to avoid me until "sometime in July", all this time after the stroke when I have been scared and needing to email or talk about it with close friends...not a peep of interest or concern from her. Very unfortunate, and I do miss talking to her. Yet...I can let her go. Despite a misunderstanding or disagreement, I would not shun someone who'd just been through that.
I just know I did nothing intentional to hurt her, she holds on fiercely to a "blame and judge" point of view, and if she can discard (or threaten to discard) me that readily, it's one of my weakest friendships. I'm going to reach out to her by the end of the month and ask if she'd like to meet and talk. If she does, I'll be glad. But if she doesn't, I'll realize she's stuck in a place where she can't. She has a complicated personality and told me often how important our friendship was. Yet--she can't forgive right now so she's dropped her end of "us" and I can't pick it up for her. Got my own end to hold. I'm sorry about it but not devastated. It's just a shame. Every friendship I have is important and I do hate to lose one. But when it happens, it's human, and the world won't ever run out of good people.
Yes to "talk and not think"! When a conversation is planned it's often awkward, that's all. It helps me in new situations with people to behave a little as though conversation is PLAY. What are we gonna talk about? I dunno! Oh, what she said makes me think of blah blah, and on it goes. It's a dance. Just take turns and be real while also allowing spontaneity. Express yourself. Let it be light and tune into eyes, expression, sound of their voice. If that all feels good, safe, welcoming, then share some of the darker things, the music in your life that is in a minor key. It's all music, all the same dance, we're all on the floor together.
love to you
Hops
Twoapenny:
--- Quote from: Hopalong on July 19, 2019, 11:05:55 AM ---I get it, (((((((((Tupp)))))))) -- the possibility of parasite people.
My empathic heart led me into toxic relationships too, and plenty of them.
But in years and years of working on my relationship with myself,
I did get better at it. I can enjoy both solitude and togetherness better, where the latter used to leave me brittle, scared and full of anxiety.
What I should have added about making friends sometimes when the other person
is as or more lonely than I am...it's more often been that the person is coping
with grief, illness, being new to town -- transitory life situations that I can relate to and offer
friendship by just making some time for them. If they seem permanently sealed in self-absorption, personality wise, I'm not attracted to making a connection. Because I know my stress limits and can't take on pure dependency. I can just "feel" that now, when I feel those tentacles coming from someone. I can sense toxicity (and indifference) much better than I used to, in my years of trying to milk turnips and suck water from rocks.
BUT. And it's a BIG "but." Some years back I figured out that the most toxic thing I was
doing was not being my own compassionate friend, who needs RECIPROCITY. Not just
proximity. Reciprocal interest (taking turns though sometimes with stretches where it's one-way because of a crisis situation, so not necessarily 50-50) and reciprocal caring.
The image of milking a turnip has got me laughing, Hops. I think all of the above is what's relevant to me now. When I formed these friendships thirteen, fourteen years ago I didn't do reciprocity; I did everything for everyone and never grumbled and of course that's the pattern that was set. I also didn't have a disabled adult I was looking at figuring out a lifetime of care for, either. I think that's the issue; I've changed but of course the other people haven't. Then I feel guilty, which I know is stupid, but I feel like I changed the rules and now I'm angry with them for not changing as well. Which is daft. I'd say with these friendships it's 95% me, 5% them, which is nowhere near good enough for what I want now. It got me thinking about how we're different with platonic friendships to romantic relationships. If I kept telling people I had a boyfriend but that I only heard from him when he wanted something or he had nothing better to do everyone would think I was mad. But with friendships it seems to be less clear cut and that's bothered me as well, I think. But ultimately I want friendships that are roughly 50/50. Like you say, it doesn't have to be completely even and it doesn't have to be even at all during a tough patch (on either side). But I seem to have fallen into the role of 'contact when needed and ignore when not' and I don't like that at all. My own fault - no boundaries in earlier days, and much more free time so it didn't matter as much. But time is much more precious to me now and I want it to count rather than wear me out. Definitely needs to be more like 50/50
Even with being tuned in to a new person's needs, these days, if the reciprocity of
support or interest doesn't appear early (despite what they're going through, it's just decent behavior to show SOME awareness--not in the acute pit of grief, of course, but in most situations), I will gently back out of forming an emotionally close connection. If they become stronger and reach out again later, then perhaps a new friendship is ready to be built. Or not.
Yes, this is what I'm doing/practising through the groups I have been going to. In years gone by I'd have said yes to any invitation, allowed anyone who latched on to me to become my friend, not given a thought about what I was getting out of it. I've already met a few who talk about themselves constantly - often quite entertainingly, so it's perfectly fine for a bit of small talk at a group thing - but I'll not be pursuing that. I've met someone who seems nice, but I am taking my time and slowly getting to know them. I've offered to help out a bit with the local disability sports club; I do think getting involved is a good way to get to know people as you work alongside them and it's kind of easier to get out of those situations if you need to. Part of it with me is knowing what it feels like to be left out of things and not wanting anyone to feel like no-one wants them around. But of course I have to temper that with losing what I want in the whole mix, but it's getting easier and I think I'm spotting the ones to avoid sooner.
I have a friend from grad school who's currently dying in a city not too far from here. She reached out to tell me (we'd been not close for years but I remained loyal) and was glad when I offered to visit. And when I wrote her about my M news, she was very happy for me, asking several questions, etc. I was touched by that. Our lifestyles and values weren't compatible for consistent closeness, and the interest was not reciprocal for a long time which really hurt me. But I never hated her for abandoning me (we'd been very close when younger), just grieved over it and finally accepted it completely. This end-of-life conversation opportunity is meaningful to me. I'll be glad to give her comfort. Partly because even in her situation, she has the grace to care about what's happening in my life too.
I'm sorry about your friend, Hops. It's good that you're able to come back together now.
Instant grace or belated grace, I'm ready for it any time it can happen. Can't be forced but it does appear sometimes. In the meantime, it does help me love (and other times, forget) myself when I can extend love a bit. (When I'm OVER-extended, which you can relate to so much Tupp -- I don't go looking for that. I just keep it in mind as a general principle...reciprocity needs to manifest EARLY, before a strong attachment. Then it's not painful to gently step back from a new connection BEFORE it becomes a friendship, when I can see reciprocity isn't going to happen there. I can do it without anger or blame or judgement now. But for a long time, I couldn't, because I took it so personally. (Thanks, Mom....)
Yes, I think taking time to assess the situation before committing is essential! I did develop a kind of three strikes rule a few years back with new people - I'll initiate three times maximum and then step back (three invitations, three times I arrange getting together, three times I phone first). And then I don't do it again and wait to see if they contact me. Most people don't and yes, like you say, the rejection is hard to take but is better than doing it for years (as I feel I have been doing now!) and then realising it's not reciprocal
I've come to believe opportunities for friendship are actually abundant. All around me. It's been my own pain or fear that have prevented me from the enjoyable, easy, confident "catch and release" kind of approach. Like practicing. Trying it out with someone. Pleased when it works, let it go quite peacefully when it doesn't.
It's hard to just "go with the flow" when we need people and phamilies so deeply it feels like water. So we just have to keep giving ourselves water and working at it...how to grow connections.
I think the "how does that person not know this about me so they wouldn't suggest such an insensitive thing" is exactly what my friend who was mad at me for not taking care of her feelings (about the other friend she disliked being at my house that day) said to me.
And in my experience, she's risking wasting what has been a friendship we both valued. And because she decided to avoid me until "sometime in July", all this time after the stroke when I have been scared and needing to email or talk about it with close friends...not a peep of interest or concern from her. Very unfortunate, and I do miss talking to her. Yet...I can let her go. Despite a misunderstanding or disagreement, I would not shun someone who'd just been through that.
I just know I did nothing intentional to hurt her, she holds on fiercely to a "blame and judge" point of view, and if she can discard (or threaten to discard) me that readily, it's one of my weakest friendships. I'm going to reach out to her by the end of the month and ask if she'd like to meet and talk. If she does, I'll be glad. But if she doesn't, I'll realize she's stuck in a place where she can't. She has a complicated personality and told me often how important our friendship was. Yet--she can't forgive right now so she's dropped her end of "us" and I can't pick it up for her. Got my own end to hold. I'm sorry about it but not devastated. It's just a shame. Every friendship I have is important and I do hate to lose one. But when it happens, it's human, and the world won't ever run out of good people.
Your friend sounds like a numpty, Hops :) The swimming thing wasn't/isn't a deal breaker for me, it's just part of the overall examining I'm doing of that particular friendship at the moment and weighing up the positives (at the moment I don't feel there are any) against the negatives (which at the moment feel plentiful). She's not a bad person, none of them are, I just feel that perhaps our lives are so different now and going in such different directions that I really need people around me who (a) do the fifty fifty thing and (b) get where I'm at and so don't draw from me yet another explanation of why I can't do something (which seems to be the central focus of every conversation I have these days). Although saying that I didn't explain it, just said no thanks, but again through being too tired to go through it. I feel like I need friendships that don't feel like such hard work at the minute. So yep, I don't think your friend is being reasonable about the situation and she shouldn't have ignored you after the stroke, regardless of whatever else she was miffed about. I'm glad you're able to let go if need be. I think that's the bit I'm still struggling with. Loving people, even though they're not doing me any good, and trying to figure out whether to stay or go.
Yes to "talk and not think"! When a conversation is planned it's often awkward, that's all. It helps me in new situations with people to behave a little as though conversation is PLAY. What are we gonna talk about? I dunno! Oh, what she said makes me think of blah blah, and on it goes. It's a dance. Just take turns and be real while also allowing spontaneity. Express yourself. Let it be light and tune into eyes, expression, sound of their voice. If that all feels good, safe, welcoming, then share some of the darker things, the music in your life that is in a minor key. It's all music, all the same dance, we're all on the floor together.
love to you
Hops
--- End quote ---
Love to you, too xx
Twoapenny:
G, were there other replies on here from you? I thought I'd read some stuff and was going to write back this morning but can't find it now. I might have got the threads muddled up, I'll keep hunting! Lol xx
Meh:
Sorry I deleted it. Sometimes I try not to respond with something that sounds like advice. Like I think about something, write and delete it. Also I was doing voice recognition so it was a little unclear anyways which doesn't help.
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