FACING CODEPENDENCE, What it is, Where it comes from, How it Sabotages our lives

[sKePTiKal]

Top of my head, based on my own experience of "stray people" that Hol has brought home...

DO. NOT. ENGAGE.
He sounds overly "needy", which reads to me like how he's learned to get what he wants - since infanthood. And that would be a form of manipulation. It puts people who meet him and learn his "story" into that specific conflict of sympathy, wanting to help, and then getting sucked in where the actual "reality" is shown.

You can do as you like, might find a different conclusion but this has been my experience.

[lighter]

Mein Gott..... avoiding him, sans another chat, would be a relief.  I'm at the end of the street..... I've avoided him before.  It's not difficult to do. Other neighbors avoid him all the time.

I told DD22 never to interact with the mailman.......even if he has a new puppy.🥺She didn't need to hear any details.

Lighter

[Hopalong]

My gentle worry-whistle, not a klaxon, went off with the mailman story, because it reminds me of different contractors, workers, neighbors who stir up some attraction in you at first, so boundaries get mushy and then later, you're in uh-oh mode.

I wonder what it'd be like if your next attraction to a man felt LIGHT and EASY, and had nothing to do with you helping him?

hugs
Hops

[sKePTiKal]

I watch Hol trying to negotiate or bargain with reality trying to find a way to "give" or "help" someone without getting sucked in or taken advantage of. She insists on treating old BFs like "friends"... makes both B and I a bit crazy. Not that we think it's impossible or not worthy as a goal - but that it's always fraught and usually comes to a messier end, than simply going their own ways. That's based on our own experiences.

But still, she persists. With S, it's even become a point of contention between her and C. Mostly because of S's dog, who is huge and old and arthritic - and has a family history of cancer. We have the space for the dog to be happy and enjoy some safe freedom. S lives in an apt. in the city and the dog needs leashed everywhere - altho, since I know S's level of compliance with rules isn't 100%, he probably lets the dog off leash in the parks. Hol can't bear to see any dog suffer because of the owner's choices -- and treats her dogs like her children. In her case, it's the closest she'll get unless she adopts.

She can't leave S's dog with me, because he weighs over 100 lbs. If he needed a vet in an emergency - I can't lift him into my jeeps. Knuckles - the smallest dog around here - is 75 lbs. Kiri is bigger but hasn't put a LOT of weight on yet - that's the setter in her. And we're about in the season, when there's too much to do with gardens, harvesting and getting wood put up for next winter. She is trying to not be "stuck here" and bored without her usual peer group to interact with.

The crux of her letting S come out and sometimes leaving his dog with her, is that she wants to HELP S grow and "evolve". I say, it's not her job. And when she grumbles about having to manage her life around what S needs... well... I have to point out that this kind of "help" doesn't actually teach him anything except that she'll do it, so he doesn't have to. C has also said something in the same vein to her, and has concerns that her behavior secretly means she's not all that committed to being with himself. She does have a self-sabotage reflex in her relationship style due to a fear of commitment or messy breakup leading to reminders of abandonment. No idea if she's addressed that yet; but I do see her doing things differently with C.

So far, she and C are doing things outside of her usual patterns. And I see that working for both of them, so far. But she is also openly discussing a more structured commitment even in front of me. And I'm not indicating one way or another what I think. They've been seeing each other a year now. I like C; I understand a good bit of his personality and have heard some of his "story". He's always been open and respectful of me - to my face. And I'm aware of the little ways that she is pretzeling herself into something she's usually not, to "connect" with C; to be the "same as". I'm watching. Biting my tongue for now. None of my business. It may be harmless.

With B, the lines are bright neon, flashing between genuinely helping him deal with his medical issues and learn to negotiate the corporatism in medicine these days and that co-dependent "caretaking". In fact, many aspects of dealing with the current state of organizational/bureaucratic entropy are brand new to him. Either he's not needed to experience those processes before (because the military did EVERYTHING) or because his early life was in very rural and poor western NC. He mostly relies on my ability to "interpret" things into simple language so he can understand what's going on and then I can leave him to his own choices.

This idea Hol has, of what "connection" is - leaves me mystified. She claims to perceive some energetic exchange with other people that influences her emotional responses; and it's like oxygen to her. She needs this to survive. She can't just be with other people, interact and discuss the mundane - oh no. It must always be serious, deep topics, life or death importance. Part of this, may be her identifying as an empath - everything must be labelled in her world and an experience or two equals BEING that, not just an ability to do such things. I have always thought of "connection" as a feeling I have of being seen and heard with another human; understood and accepted. Without needing a label. And this perception of the connection is ephermeral - existing along a continuum to a greater/lessor degree. I own that; the other person I'm interacting with isn't "doing" it with me and I'm not dependent on how THEY feel, to feel my feelings or perceive them. It's more like puzzle pieces fitting into place to make a picture; or cogs in a machine that run smoothly. It's a difficult thing to put into words.

I enjoy other people (in small groups) and feel close to several... but I'm not dependent on them for my own energy reserves or motivation or self worth. Perhaps it's just the different orientation of introvert to extrovert? I dunno.

Anyway, I haven't rambled on ideas for awhile... and I'm seriously rambling. Sort of connected to co-dependency, but not strictly that. And not necessarily useful or helpful in this instance. I still believe that there isn't always a black & white line - this is co-dependent, this is not - in ALL situations, ALL the time. Like Hol's identifying with being an empath - perhaps it's just a tendency to appreciate things from that point of view. Still connected to perception and beauty is still in the eye of the beholder. And that's OK.

[lighter]

"Stir up .....
attraction.....
in me."

Hmmm. Not sure I understand what you're saying here, Hops.  Please clarify.

Amber.... I understand Hol's view, with exes.  I sometimes think it's another kind of blind spot.  To be kind to someone, once beloved, seems obvious to me.  I know it's not, and maybe most people aren't. I wonder what it would mean, to Hol, deep down....to let exes go.

I wonder about my own tendencies to remain friends with exes... pathological?  Love turned to fondness? Security of some sort?  Not sure, but it feels like my heads popped above the clouds lately.....and I can see farther.....with more clarity.  Will meditate on that today.

As for kiddos and codependent-ish worries about co-dependence.....things are calming down....or seem to be. I tell them both...
"I know you can handle (whatever)" and listen more.....try not to give opinions, unless asked.  DD24 phoned for advice about laundry, last night.  That's rare.  She normally doesn't ask for my advice.

I spoke to oldest DD about her sister's upset, at being roommates with her and bf.  Oldest DD assured me she has things under control.... all will be well.  Younger DD seems to have relaxed a bit.

I feel there's lessons to teach, over next 6 months, as well as bathroom renovations,and the roof to be handled.  That doesn't square with keeping my yap shut, but these will be lessons, not advice.  They will change the AC filter, check their oil/tire pressure, consider target selection and handle trash/recycling.

Oh.....I do like deadlines.

Lighter

[Hopalong]

Maybe it wasn't "attraction" I was thinking of, in the usual sense. I'm pondering, and wondering if, instead, it's more like a hyper alert kind of ATTENTION to male figures in your world. Perhaps it's a natural pattern for you, and on a deep level an awareness of potential complications and dangers.

I'd just love to know you can have a gentle, simple male friendship one day, IF you want one.

I'm probably projecting all over the map. I'm sorry I was off-key. I've pretty much let go of hopes for that connection myself, and that's overall more comfortable, but my life is so women-centered I feel as though I live in a social nunnery.

I nearly fell in love with the handyman, until I all of a sudden stopped trusting who he is, and began seeing him as manipulative with charm, etc. All about him. Sigh. Sometimes you realize you're such a slow learner that you really won't grasp reality until you're on the way out. Bummer!

hugs
Hops

[sKePTiKal]

Hops, I would swear that these types of people (yeah, some women too) give off shivering, wet, poor puppy pheromones! They do attract those who haven't learned the lesson of what a tar baby act that is - altho, they honestly believe they are genuinely in desperate need. (Can we PLEASE revive the old fairy tales for kids?? Human nature doesn't change and seldom "evolves".)

Sad to say - this is a worn out marketing trick used by some charities - at least for those, like me, that have been taken advantage of by said manipulation of ye olde heart strings and good intentions. And I still get fooled. Our mothering instincts are our own worst enemies in those situations, I think. I still take the gamble, sometimes, to give a "hand up" to people who - from my observation - are flailing, struggling, trying to get some traction in their lives. They're trying to learn; I'm trying to teach.

These guys/gals are like hummingbirds - attracted to the color red, whether that's a flower, a feeder, or a solar light. No discernment, just playing the odds.

[lighter]

Girls are socialized.

Boys are socialized.

People repeat coping strategies they used in childhood.

Some humans can self reflect. 
Some can't, and never will.

Assuming everyone has a moral compass is a mistake.

I think I've arrived at the place where there's no denying.....
some people are safe. 
Some aren't.

 It's a moral imperative to see, to look at others.....
to interpret what they show us, and makeself protective choices, IME.

Some people are masters at misdirection.  Some sense the "weakness,"that is compassion, within others, and exploit it.

I don't feel compassion is weakness.  I have zero interest in people lacking compassion. 

It's discernment, assertiveness, intuition and entitlement to self protection......that's trained out of little girls.......its lacking....for little girls.  Absent.  Software installed.... and the answer isn't giving up on people, marriage, tribe, but holy guacamole......
tribe, culture, socialization is often dangerous......poisonous, destructive, IME.
 Esp to girls and women..... minorities. Destructive to men and boys, also....incels are red flags'a fly'in.  Poor dears. 

Look around.....mothers destroy their daughters, on purpose.......I look at my girl's friend's FOOs.  There's violence, torture, accusations against one DD of seducing the father, so that DD was forced into a shed, with no running water or electricity ...forced to chop wood for a little stove to keep from freezing.  We didn't know until years after she moved out, but that's mental illness on both parent's parts, imo. 

The torment, I speak of, was done to a male friend who was physically abused and ridiculed by a crazy stepfather.....and the mom knew.....she knew about all of it.

We're unwell and raising unwell children to carry out generational illness and trauma, while pretending to be well and normal, IME. 

Divorce rates, and movements like 4B or the 4No's, are logical consequences, imo.

We'll see where things go.

I'd like to be done with....
 being surprised by people.

 It would be such a relief to bounce over coping, grasping, illogical self defeating choices, more quickly.

Lordy, let discernment lead.

Lighter








There should be no mystery, about that, by now.

[sKePTiKal]

There is truth in your words Lighter. No disputing that.
But there are people who grow OUT of their childhood conditioning. Who discover "another way" early enough to work at becoming different - if not better.

There are even worse things going on in "society" these days, that I hardly recognize it. And am hard pressed to define it as a "society" many times.

So, I worry about the things I can control; the people who can (sometimes) hear me... the ones who are capable of learning. They must be able to empty their cup first, ya know? And that's not an invalidation of "what they think they know" - it's a mind exercise to let them look at things from a different place.

No, some people aren't safe. We are not obligated to be friendly with them and share the authentic parts of ourselves with them. We should be civil and polite - as long as they are being the same. IMO, it isn't healthy to want to share your total self with EVERYONE. That's a Facebook idea that, again IMO, has done a severe amount of damage to a lot of people, psychologically speaking. It not only disrespects people's personal boundaries - it declares that boundaries don't exist!! And shouldn't exist!!

Compassion takes a lot of bravery and much strength. And it's not an either/or proposition - it's an "and" - compassion AND self-protection; not over-sharing and clearly stating your preferred boundaries. No matter how hard "they" tried - my "smart ass" and personal "assertiveness" wasn't going to follow those rules. No sirreee. No way, no how, could "they" make me feel shame for not being a "lady". I didn't like it; it itched; it was ugly and fake. I couldn't run, jump, climb trees or not get dirty. To me: that was the take-away from "The Emperor's New Clothes". False fronts usually suffer an excruciating demise. Humilatingly so. Funny thing to me is, most of those people don't feel any shame in being fake and simply "shift skins" without ever getting the lesson.

And I still to this day screw up and make mistakes about people. My discernment and intuition is usually about 90% right. But I don't always get the whole picture initially. Fortunately, it hasn't hurt me to admit I've been wrong about someone or something. Shift directions and keep on truckin'. Some days, I swear nothing works right, too. I just sit that day out... and wait for whatever is off kilter to rebalance.

I have never heard of some of the "social phenomenons" you mention; the incels I know - but don't completely understand. So I can't speak to those. I think we all know SOME mothers try to destroy their daughters, but others are simply doing the best they can, without a manual, and are struggling with their own conditioning also. They could at least TRY. Some mothers are down right ignorant and mean. One of the things, across the board, both Hol and I agree NEEDS to happen in parenting but usually doesn't is education about emotions. Regulation of emotions. How they fit into all the things that make a "person". I have gotten her to see that no one taught us, either - we just made our own rules up. That there ISN'T ANYWHERE a pattern or model or ideal to become or follow or work towards.

Maybe it's a lot like the spirituality seeking trap. Looking for enlightment and becoming "perfect". I read a lot Grandpa's HS literature books when I was very young - Emerson, Thoreau, Ivanhoe... the Indian stories. History. In some way, I THINK that helped me but it still didn't provide any processes or ideals for me. I dunno. Life didn't come with an instruction manual either. I know the Bible failed for me, when my life became something completely different and unaddressed in those pages. And yes, like the complete works of Shakespeare, I read the whole book. No one answered my questions - I know now, they couldn't. But then, it felt like there was a secret someone was keeping from me. Like I needed to be "of age" to go through the initiation rites. I tried that too... and that didn't help.

But sitting in nature, tending my gardens... saying good morning to birds and the kitties that stayed out overnight hunting vermin...listening to the frog chorus in the early night... there is peace. There is happiness. There is wisdom in the plants, trees and wildlife. Non-judgemental, accepting, and kind - sometimes. Sometimes brutal. People forget nature carries both creation and destruction. They encourage one side of it and fear/fight against the other.

But I'm still learning, so just take this as the ramblings of a silly old woman. Want some tea? LOLOLOLOLOL Maybe a shot of something stronger in it? Life doesn't have to be an endless struggle.