Author Topic: Coronavirus  (Read 107535 times)

Hopalong

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #240 on: July 17, 2020, 02:49:17 AM »
I hear you, Tupp. It IS sad.
Only thing I can bear is my tiny circle, being kind, and staying home.
It'll be harder before it gets easier, and nobody know for how long.
(I saw Tom Hanks explaining that although he's donated plasma twice, he's been told his antibiodies are dropping now too. He did a great brief riff about all the questions we still have about the virus and how the honest scientific answers are: We don't know. Maybe. That could be. We're not sure.)

It's not for lack of scientific trying, and there's certainly hope out there too. I just don't try to personally understand the ramifications of this development or that one. My pea-brain gets what my local health region daily charts are showing, and in our area it's a long original curve that is now rising faster than before. First wave. So that simplifies my choices a lot. (I'm sad I'll no longer be able to go back and forth to M's, because that had been my positive strategy for winter.)

The big picture is just TOO big to take on right now (but I don't have an orderly, logical mind as you do...I can understand why you follow developments so closely and seek more order amid the confusion.)

I just finished Mary Trump's book about the Donald, and her take as a psychologist as well as a family member is so penetrating. What a story. I wasn't very interested in the business bits, but her snaps of family drama, naricissm, sociopathy, traumatized children, dialogues and especially her closing chapter about how his deeply damaged personality has led to hundreds of thousands of deaths and exactly WHY: the direct link between his terrible combination of personality flaws and amorality and especially, his running on fear...were amazing. Plus, the bits about his enablers and entire party.

hugs
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Twoapenny

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #241 on: July 17, 2020, 04:56:09 AM »
Gosh that sounds like a scary but interesting book, Hops.  I'm astonished that there's a psychologist in the family.  I expect she often eats alone.  Lol.

Yes, I'm worried that my distrust levels have gone to the paranoid state now.  The 'possible herd immunity' article is printed in a paper that's traditionally Conservative and was followed by an article stating that people are not going out and spending, despite the pubs and shops being open now, and if they don't, the economy won't recover.  So my immediate thought is that the herd immunity one is to reassure people it's safe to go out and do you know what, however much the papers are doing and whatever is going on online, for the first time in a long time what I'm hearing people talk about in the actual world is different to what the papers are doing and saying.  There's a massive distrust in the government from all sides.  Those who think the whole thing has been blown out of proportion are angry that they've locked down at all and don't trust them and those of us who think the situation is every bit as bad as it seems to be don't feel we're being given accurate information and so are continuing to take precautions.  So they've really caused problems in every sector.  They've managed a high death rate and a wrecked economy, whilst at the same time managing to piss off just about everybody.  Early on lots of people were still supportive of them and saying, "well, it's a tough call, who could have done better".  But as time's gone on it's become apparent that almost every other leader on the planet could have done better, with one or two obvious exceptions.

Sigh.  Son and I will continue to stay home, do our short walks and socially distanced coffees, and save our money for moving.  The saving grace we do have is that we're pretty far from any major cities where I am so anything that's happening tends to start a good long distance away from us.  That at least means you tend to hear about what's happening in advance so I'm grateful for that.

Hopalong

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #242 on: July 17, 2020, 10:04:35 AM »
I hear you, Tupp.

I'd just listen to scientists such as medical experts/epidemiologists right now.
Not political media. Or not pandemic stories IN political media that report mainly about people's emotions and/or political/irrational responses, to sell more media.

If one's doing the rational/right things to avoid infection, which you are....you are pretty much doing all you can do. Maybe time to go back on a news diet? Beware feeding the fear furnace. Paranoia is both reasonable and dangerous. With paranoia or without it, one either gets infected or one doesn't get infected. But paranoia makes it all worse. Or you could go all Heller (if you'd enjoy reading it again):

Quote
“There was only one catch and that was Catch-22, which specified that a concern for one's safety in the face of dangers that were real and immediate was the process of a rational mind. Orr was crazy and could be grounded. All he had to do was ask; and as soon as he did, he would no longer be crazy and would have to fly more missions. Orr would be crazy to fly more missions and sane if he didn't, but if he was sane he had to fly them. If he flew them he was crazy and didn't have to; but if he didn't want to he was sane and had to. Yossarian was moved very deeply by the absolute simplicity of this clause of Catch-22 and let out a respectful whistle.

"That's some catch, that Catch-22," he observed.

"It's the best there is," Doc Daneeka agreed.”
― Joseph Heller, Catch-22

hugs
Hops
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Twoapenny

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #243 on: July 17, 2020, 04:50:07 PM »
That's interesting to read, CB, the paper that's just been released here is about a theory (it's unproven yet; as you say, info's coming out fast) but the theory is that some people already have some degree of immunity due to their T cells (and apparently T cells are different to antibodies?  So they think that some people aren't catching it and/or are getting it mildly because their T cells are fighting the good fight).  And part of the theory around that is that Covid is part of the common cold family so, as you say, most people get colds every year so they're thinking that some people have built up an immunity.  Off the back of that they think that the virus can just die out if it runs out of people to infect (I think that was the gist of it; the whole thing is way over my head but Twitter doctors have been deciphering sections).  It would be a possible answer to my previous pondering over why we haven't seen big jumps after the BLM protests, huge beach gatherings, busy pubs and so on.  On the flip side of that, the Government have announced that the death figures haven't been accurate and they're not releasing daily figures until a review's been carried out.  No-one trusts them, god knows what they'll come back with and what their end game is.  This is what bothers me so much about the lack of accurate information - we're in an age when it's never been easier to get information and share it, yet there's such a lack of ethics it's impossible to figure out who's doing what and why.

I hear you about the news Hopsie but I'm only reading the Twitter people's stuff (science and medical) and then a quick scroll through the mainstream press to look for good news for son (he likes some sort of positive story each day, even if it's just someone buying someone a sandwich or something).  I don't watch or listen to it and I am of the mindset that we're doing all we can personally and we can't do any more of that, but I do find it all interesting?  But also sometimes frustrating and scary :) xx

Hopalong

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #244 on: July 17, 2020, 07:36:17 PM »
Completely understand, Tupp. Why not follow along? I know everybody figures out their own "right level" with the news and uncertainty.

Meanwhile, I think this would be Very Helpful (still debating but I just may!):
https://www.afar.com/magazine/iceland-invites-the-world-to-scream-it-out

And this is for your son--I know there are better collections out there but I bookmarked this one and one or more of them do give me a lift every morning:
https://www.inspiremore.com

(My current fav: Seriously, random shoppers--pre virus, it seems--just broke out with this! He heard her humming...and look what happened. Made me MELT:
https://youtu.be/D3XxmO_CJ-M)

Sending him a big auntie-Yank hug and/or smooch, whichever he can manage!

hugs
Hops
« Last Edit: July 17, 2020, 08:00:31 PM by Hopalong »
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

lighter

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #245 on: July 18, 2020, 07:13:13 PM »
I really missed you on the board, CB.

So glad you're back.

Lighter

CB123

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #246 on: July 19, 2020, 09:55:36 AM »
Awww Lighter...Thanks!

CB
When they are older and telling their own children about their grandmother, they will be able to say that she stood in the storm, and when the wind did not blow her way -- and it surely has not -- she adjusted her sails.  Elizabeth Edwards 2010

sKePTiKal

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #247 on: July 19, 2020, 11:50:48 AM »
Well, after diving into the long, arduous, DRY research into what is going on business-wise... I have a whole 'nother perspective on the virus situation.

The confusion you've all been talking about re: the virus has seriously impacted business activity. The reality of it is, that business activity - manufacturing is what I primarily looked at - has contracted so severely (~ 30-50% across the board, globally) that just like dominos toppling... there are going to be future impacts for an unknown amount of time. Our sales reflect that too. SO far, the cottage industry level is hanging on... and hasn't been significantly affected. But that's because instead of replacing equipment or tools that break, people are seeking out someone who can weld them back together again. Catepillar's sales are down 20-30% this year. That is a LOT of money people. And it's just one company. We know the automakers are down too; by a lot. That will impact steel - which was just beginning to get restarted domestically with projects still on the drawing board and in the permitting process (which takes about 5 years). For example.

My take on all that is we're in an undefined duration global economic contraction. That means fewer pieces of the pie to go around - and that would be at all levels; for everyone; eventually. Like a wave - like the virus even - the impacts are felt here; then there; and then way over there. And there were some serious issues in the economy and fiscal management by governments already weakening the ability of economies to withstand something like this. The shrinking of business activity will impact tax revenues for governments, eventually. And those with a high level of debt/deficit already are going to have to go into serious budget-cutting mode - or default on their debt obligations. I can't begin to imagine what that does to the geo-political landscape if it gets that bad. (Remains to be seen if it will; but this is the cause/effect chain. I still believe in the rare unexpected miracle, however.)

So, more uncertainty and not a pretty picture. But I HAVE to face reality and be as clear as possible about the situation even with so many uncertain variables in it... in order to make informed (to the best of what's available to me) decisions. Fortunately, I don't own a restaurant. I feel terrible for those people who have just lost their business due to all this. Even in good times, it's grueling hard work and the profit margins are slim.

My business is going to hunker down and try to survive. I have no idea if that's the right call - but things aren't past the point of no return for us YET and we DO have some options to implement when/if the sales picture deteriorates any more, before even considering laying anyone off... or locking the doors. I believe it's already too late to try to sell; there wouldn't be any buyers at the moment or in the foreseeable future... AND that is the least favorite of all the options. For a number of reasons.

So that's not exactly "trending" news on Twitter - but it is a reality for everyone. And even if it is gloomy, it's better to know that's the situation far enough in advance, so you can take appropriate steps to face it, as best one can. Everyone's in a different situation and will do different things to adjust & adapt.

I'm not freaking out here. I am not able to control the geo-econ-political environment we're in. But I sure can control how I react, respond, and deal with it. But I AM very concerned... and now I'm going to pay closer attention to certain things. But it's not the "daily dose of outrage, hype/fearmongering, or political posturing". That stuff serves absolutely no useful purpose in a situation like this.

Except to allow people to deny the reality of the situation. Thanks no, not for me.
--------------------

My state apparently got an A, for how the virus situation was managed. But I think a lot of the criteria is based on actual cases/deaths reported in that scale. We're a lower population state, with few big cities - and a lot of space between us all. We have not yet (it's been a couple days since I looked) hit 100 deaths in the state from the virus. People work more outdoors than in, here. And we don't socialize in large groups indoors. Churches would see the biggest group.

So, isolation remains one of the more effective preventions of infection, in my way of thinking. And despite the mask controversy over effectiveness - the more masks worn, the lower probability of virus-infected droplets spreading - ie, DISTANCE.

There is an ER doc on one of my other boards; his state was hard hit with cases a month ago. And what he saw was a number of critical hospitalized YOUNG people - in the 20-45 age group; many of whom were previously quite heatlhy. No underlying conditions, in other words.

I won't speculate - much - on what that all means. But I don't really like where my analytical brain goes as a result. As far as I'm concerned we don't know any more about this for sure, than we did in March/April. I'm sticking strictly the smaller set of things we KNOW; whether we like 'em or not...

and staying grateful for the fact that I'm one of those who can easily adapt to being a hermit. Who knew it would be so useful?

Perhaps in 6 months, all this will be past tense, the virus will burn itself out and things will look better. So many strange - not in my lifetime things - happening, that I'm not going to be surprised by much any more.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

Hopalong

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #248 on: July 19, 2020, 01:58:42 PM »
Very briefly, Amber (have a Zoom date with a girlfriend in a few)...

Just want to say I found your post realistic, apolitical, rational, and wise. Sobering but strong.

And I am very sorry you have the weight of your business and its employees bearing down...while at the same time I celebrate the maturity and consideration of how you are thinking it through.

As to the unknowns and the likely economic/geopolitical effects of this pandemic...everything you wrote rang true to me too.

I'm really glad you're in that "fresh air" setting. My state has started to soar, but the numbers are concentrated in a very densely populated area. My town/county are less so...but the direction of the cases/hospitalizations is unambiguous.

It's remarkable what a different the arguments are between over-educated city/university types, and the folks in the rural counties around us (who do most of the underpaid service jobs) are. Pure politics, which is the saddest thing about all this. I imagine what if this pandemic had been explained to the entire population in terms of patriotism, sacrifice for the cause or the common good. Not now.

Anyway, really respected your post and your reasoning!

Hugs
Hops
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sKePTiKal

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #249 on: July 19, 2020, 04:01:12 PM »
Thanks Hops.

I really wish more people would stop seeing things in terms of politics - left or right - and simply focus on what IS, what we KNOW, and start addressing things from that standpoint. I guess it's natural to start in your personal life, and branch out to friends & acquaintances... and if called to do so, on from there. Sure, we're all gonna have different priorities - for some it's poverty, some it's pervasive abuse, others religion... but there is room for people to work on ALL those things... including keeping the "engine" of the economy oiled, lubed, and working for everyone's benefit.

I'm still helping Hol transcend that thought limitation - but I mostly leave her to do it as she will. I'm not trying to change her mind about politics. (As it is - between our very different viewpoint - we've discovered and listed a LOT of common ground that she initially thought would be impossible. Seems she let labels create a box around her thinking about even Mom. We set that bad box on fire... both of us.)

Those of us who CAN reach out and "touch" common ground with others really need (in terms of the universe's balance) to start showing up and speaking up about now. Connecting. I don't think anyone wants to see what happens if any of the wheels on this rickety state of affairs get any looser and start to fall off.

There is still a lot of good stuff, that it would be a shame to lose.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

Hopalong

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #250 on: July 20, 2020, 07:08:29 AM »
Back to the personal side of quarantine life for a mo'--

I have one friend (my closest, who's been coming to my house once a week to meet outside). She's not being pushy about it, but is interested in trying to meet, just the two of us, indoors when weather's bad. We'd sit well apart and both wear masks. We both know how paranoid I am about the virus, we're the same age, etc. I think she would be considerate (for example, if she used the bathroom I know she'd carefully disinfect on the way out). But I'm still a bit scared of doing that. She's cautious too, but I've found her throughout sort of relentlessly optimistic.

I'm just a bit more rigid about precautions than she is, but not by a lot--and know there's a big diference between an enclosed space and outside. She has family members from other cities who have stayed with her, so I'd want her to quarantine for two weeks (regarding her I mean) after they had left. Perhaps three, since the two weeks is an arbitrary period. This article sums up that:
https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/generalinfectiousdisease/84963

She quotes "quarantine for 14 days" as though it's guaranteed safety and I'm just not convinced. And her partner, though he does take the usual precautions, is not quite as reliable about doing it every single time as I think she is. Overall I think she'd be a "quite safe" person to try this with but not a "very safe" person. Still, it could make a big mental health difference, I think. I wouldn't want to do the same at her house because of her partner, I don't think.

Anyhow, wondered if y'all think that would be crazy.

hugs
Hops
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Twoapenny

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #251 on: July 20, 2020, 09:03:10 AM »
It's very difficult, Hops, because so much of this is unproven - it's such a new disease and they're still finding out so much about it that it's very hard to know what the most reliable information is, or even if that information is correct (it may come to light that information they're giving out now turns out to be wrong - we just don't know).

I have decided my personal approach is to judge each situation and balance high risk of catching the virus against physical/mental health and or anxiety caused by meeting people.  I think if you would feel safer with three weeks rather than two then go with that.  I personally think (for myself, at least) that we'll be doing some sort of human contact over the winter because I think six months sitting indoors on my own is just not going to do me any favours.  Would you feel safer wrapping up well on a cold day and heading out for a walk with her rather than sitting indoors?  I just wondered if you're both flexible enough to meet up only on dry days when you can get out easily enough?

Hopalong

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #252 on: July 20, 2020, 10:40:04 AM »
Yes, I'd feel safer outdoors at any point during all this.

Right now, temperatures feel like 99 degrees F, and it's also very humid, so sitting outside doesn't feel possible. The intense heat will break at some point so we'll be able to grab those lovely days and continue meeting outside.

But that's why it came up. This sudden massively hot wave of weather just hit this region so she and I are going through withdrawal from our reliably weekly visits.

hugs
Hops
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sKePTiKal

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #253 on: July 20, 2020, 05:10:13 PM »
I'm pretty good with solitary activities and keeping myself entertained. It helps that Hol is around and we do usually connect up with each other once or twice a day. I have a couple different forums I participate in online - and it usually involves friendship now as we've been together as a group for years now. Like here.

One thing I've been doing that's sort of a combo of entertainment and working on myself, is watching a number of tarot readers on youtube. What I find interesting is it's less prediction these days - than digging down into energies that may be assisting or hindering people in their development/healing. There are many many styles of decks these days; and even the readers seem to do different kinds of things. Some claim almost psychic ability through intuition, or they "channel", or claim ye olde spirit guides or angels are sharing messages... kind of thing.

But I have found a handful of readers that seem to be useful as I'm sorting out and trying to release all the old crap that still lingers in my habitual interactions with people. They tend to suggest energy trends and personality traits they see in the cards - to be utilized in that work to become one's "best most authentic self". Some of them tend to use VERY plain language, word to the wise... but not all. Some are quite funny too; others seem to just ooze empathy. They are reading for what they call "the collective" - the group of people by astrological sun, moon or rising sign.

I'm not saying it's a replacement for a good therapist, but if you're working on your own - at that stage of things - you might find it interesting or even insightful in whatever you're currently going through. They tend to stress that no matter what the cards are indicating, one always has free will and choice in the matter - and that not everything in a particular reading will pertain to everyone in that collective.

In the end - it's another thing to do; pass the time while I'm waiting for the heatwave to break and I'm not running the risk of making myself ill trying to do too much physical work in this heat.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

lighter

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #254 on: July 26, 2020, 01:06:36 PM »
A friend in Georgia has COVID 19. 

I can't say I feel terrified for her.  I have the feeling she'll be OK, even though she has immune issues and is overweight. 


Now I'm focusing on it.... it is pretty scary.

Lighter