Checking In

[Twoapenny]

I've had a few friends who talk that way for 90 minutes.

Today, though, I can't do it. The main one starts up and after a while I'll say kindly, I've got about 10 more minutes, can you give me the summary?

I've felt in the past huge anxiety building when I NEEDED to interrupt her stream-of-consienceness but DIDN'T. I think the art of "gentle interruption" is key, and gets easier with practice.

But it sounds like your friend never took a breath. It's difficult to interrupt when you believe in politeness and patience as core values. But having an alligator chomping inside your guts and screaming brain while they drone onnnnnnnnnnnnnn is difficult too.

Rest up! I get how draining that was.

hugs
Hops

I seem to attract these kind of people, Hops.  I realised I do have a pattern - yet another that I hadn't noticed lol - of becoming friends with women who (a) don't have supportive partners (so spend a lot of time discussing their angst and worries with me) and (b) who don't take practical steps to deal with their situations.  I don't mean as severe as divorcing necessarily, but don't discuss their problems with their partner, they're not willing to take the financial hit that comes from going from two to one, funnily enough as I write that I realised there are three I can think of off the top of my head who stay because they know he can't cope on his own and although they might be able to adjust to a smaller property in a new area, hubby won't.  And that is the pattern of my mother, again.  I've recreated similar situations so many times, and almost never realise it.  They're not abusive like my mum, but they are in that perpetual state of refusing to acknowledge reality and dealing with what's actually happening.  And I think that's why I find it so tiring to listen to it all.  There's just no awareness, even when talking about something good.  My friend in this case wasn't moaning, they had a really nice time, but so much of it was just not stuff anyone needs to know - what they had for dinner each night, what time they went out each morning, the conversation they had with the concierge each day.  It's that focus on minutiae whilst ignoring the big problems they have in life - health care problems that aren't being dealt with, financial issues that aren't being dealt with, not seeing which bits are good and work well so doing more of them.  I feel anxious when I listen to people talking about things that don't matter when I know they have big cliffs ahead of them that they're going to walk straight off of because they focus on the little things and keep ignoring the big stuff.  It's my mum all over again and I think that's why it bugs me.  I don't quite know how to adjust things.  These are good people who have a good place in my life and I wouldn't want to be without them.  But their refusal to deal with reality makes me anxious and I'm just not really in that place where I can go, "oh well".  And genuinely be unaffected by it.  Something else to ponder, I guess x

[lighter]

How's the pondering going, Tupp?

[Hopalong]

You are, as ever, SO insightful, Tupp.

What hits me is that someone who has worked so hard, and so intelligently, for insight into her own behaviors and patterns, is just baffled by cliffdwellers who can't or won't.

I'm guessing, but could some of this come from the very-rational gifts of being a bit on the spectrum? My D (Asperger's) used to complain to me: I just want the FACTS, Mom! Only years later did I realize she was just showing me how her brain worked differently. It must've been maddening for her to be with someone who was head-in-navel what are my FEEEEELNGS all day long. Or was isolating to write about that.

Anyhow, I get how draining and frustrating and anxiety-triggering that's been for you. You were literally struggling (not drama-struggling, near-drowning struggling) for years and years to keep yourself and Son safe and functional. To meet with people, good people, who have no clue how deep and wrenching that struggle was, and how it affected your psyche would be hard. Not worthless, it's good practice for the quotidian and mundane where most people live. But still hard.

Sending you much support for finding a peaceful balance. And, you go through some of the most productive pondering I've ever been honored to witness.

hugs
Hops

[Twoapenny]

Ah it's the opposite with me, Hops, lost in translation due to me trying to keep things brief - when I say angst and worries it's not feelings being discussed, it's a long list of 'he did this and then he didn't do that and then he should have done that but then he didn't do this', all of which is accompanied by lots of extra detail of where, when, why, background etc - and all of it manageable by saying or doing something fairly simple.  To give one example (and this is from a long time ago), a friend - who was a good friend, I cared for her a lot and enjoyed her company and she was good to me many times - spent a considerable length of time going through every detail of what had been an all weekend long argument over a scratch on the family car which she was certain was the fault of the husband.  How she knew that when they both drove it regularly I don't know, but this whole passive aggressive argument started because of it, went on for three days, all around the kids, and here she was making my ears bleed with a minute by minute account of this endless and pointless saga.  If I had a car, and a partner, and there was a scratch on the car, I would either fix the scratch myself, or ask him to do it.  It's probably no more than a ten minute job, it's no different to polishing a table so it's not difficult to do, but when I asked her why she didn't just say "there's a scratch on the back of the car, can you fix it over the weekend" she looked at me like I had two heads.  She just couldn't comprehend it and that's what I've had a lot of over the years - a need for endless drama (instead of just dealing with the situation - talk about how it makes you feel, of course, but why not look for a solution?  I don't get that).  Or a similar focus on irrelevant, unnecessary detail while huge obstacles remain unchecked - ie the friend with the holiday talk, who has an hour and a half free to give a blow by blow account of their trip but doesn't have time to go to the doctor and get the long list of health problems she has checked and dealt with, even though she's getting to the point of being disabled because things are getting so bad now.

I guess what it really highlighted for me (when we were away) was how nice it was to have uncomplicated conversations about where people were from and where they were going and how much they were enjoying it and so on.  Uplifting verses draining, I guess.

I think there's a bit of a misconception that autistic people don't deal with feelings.  I've never met an autistic person like that, in fact most I know are incredibly sensitive souls and worry enormously about other people and feel very deeply.  I think it more likely that other people's feelings - in large amounts and in situations that can't be avoided - are very draining to listen to, particularly if it is just an emotional dump, rather than a quest for a solution.  You need facts to problem solve.  I think some people thrive on other people's feelings in a vampirific sort of way - it's fuel for the next bout of coffee morning gossip, or it makes people feel important to be trusted with the information.  I've no issue with someone talking about their feelings, if it's proportionate to the situation (ie someone grieving will have a huge amount to get off their chest, someone still wanging on about feeling hard done by that someone else got the job seven years after it happened needs to take action to deal with that and move on).  I think it's the perpetual helplessness that bugs me and I seem to have attracted a lot of that over the years.  Although equally it's helped me work through a lot of my own stuff so I probably shouldn't be so dismissive of it xx

[Twoapenny]

I have an example that is my mission to work on over the weekend

A very good friend of mine - caring, thoughtful, considerate - has a number of health problems, none of which she is dealing with.  She doesn't follow medical advice, won't make lifestyle changes, tries multiple gimmicky type things (usually after it's recommended by an 'influencer') but doesn't follow through on anything that seems to help a bit.  Takes part in activities that she knows will exacerbate her problems and make it difficult for her to function for several days.

We have had many conversations about her health and the many things that worry her.  I have sent her lots of things I've found online in relation to the problems, whether it's articles about conventional treatments, complementary therapies, diet plans, exercise suggestions, even just basic stress management techniques.  This is because I problem solve - there's no point endlessly talking about a problem without attempts to solve it (the only exceptions being problems that don't have a solution, like grief).  Talking through the different attempts, yes, seeking others opinions or own experiences in relation to dealing with that problem, yes, having those down in the dumps times when nothing seems to be working, yes.  But not 'create the problem - make no attempt to solve the problem - talk endlessly about the problem that you're making worse instead of trying to improve.  So having been thinking to myself I'll see if she's free over the weekend for a phone call, I'm now not going to phone her because I don't want to listen to the latest crisis that she's created less than two weeks since getting over the last one by going out and doing something she knew would make things worse.

It's not a problem for me - just my observations about how things are.  I am trying hard to prioritise what I want and need to do, and others can join in if they want, or carry on regardless if they don't.  I do still feel a tug - she's suffering and that obligation to fix and soothe runs deep in me and feels uncomfortable to ignore.  But she's suffering because she won't deal with the reality of the situation and that seems to be all around me.  I don't even know why I'm waffling on lol, I just felt I needed to get it out of my head somehow x

[sKePTiKal]

I hoped to get back to you sooner with some of my thoughts on this relational "phenomenon" Tupp. But I've been SUPER busy this week (beyond my comfort zone busy). I may not say this bit, all that coherently, as a result but here goes nothin'.

When we were small, and lived in abusive unpleasant times... we learned that by caretaking adults around us, sometimes it saved us from the brunt of the worst experiences. I even see the little kitties doing this behavior. It works often enough to become a conditioned response. A coping mechanism. And depending on how deeply we internalized it, becomes part of our outward facing "persona".

Other people did the same thing when they were young - but situationally, things were different and they developed other conditioned responses. They obtained the safety they wanted by being bullies, or being "sick", etc different approaches. And there is some sort of primal attraction between the different types - a dysfunctional "utility" that keeps people stuck in those kinds of transactional relationships. (For one thing, it feels "normal" because the behavior is so old and engraved on their persona.)

To act differently than the conditioned behavior is UNcomfortable and feels fake or mask-like... even when our inner voices (instincts) and deepest feelings are telling us that providing a different behavior is EXACTLY what we should do. The new behavior doesn't feel like "us"; doesn't feel authentic or genuine (even though it's more authentic than the conditioned one). That's merely a different familiarity; habit.

Practicing - like you're doing - is probably the fastest & easiest way to break the old habit. Sometimes, we screw up but that's OK; we're learning from the screw ups. And trying again the "next time", we'll remember what we learned.

Does that make any sense to you? There is other language I can use to describe this but the "mechanical process" seemed like a good starting point. The other styles get into less concrete examples; more philosophical, emotional, spiritual stuff... but the process is still the same and we risk misunderstanding more, when using the other styles of language. There's more room for personal interpretation... and sometimes there is an AHA synchronicity of understanding that feels truly good... but we humans are a tad psychologically complex and it's just not as simple as a "how things work" explanation!

I see you making a great leap forward in your work now. You're applying it to real life situations and getting good results. However you think/speak of this is definitely working for you!

"Real life" is trying even in the calmest most settled of times. We (globally) aren't living in settled times. I occasionally see some of the strongest sanest people completely lose their cheese off their cracker these days. And some days, that's me too. It's not a lot of times, but I have had to take some things off my plate lately, when I'm feeling overwhelmed and like life issues are piling on. First thing to go for me, is always "OPPs" - other people's problems. When I get grounded again, then I re-engage.

[Twoapenny]

Yes, that's exactly it, Skep, it's like trying not to blink.  It's so much a part of who you are and what you do that not doing it feels as difficult as not blinking.  I find it very hard to say, "let me know how that works out for you", partly because I feel it's very passive aggressive and I hear it as "I couldn't give a s**t, I don't care what happens to you, don't bore me with your problems".  I don't feel it's a phrase that really works for me - although at the same time I sometimes feel I'm being manipulated by people who prefer to be 'helpless' in their situations.  I did keep saying to myself, "I don't have to fix this' and that helped.  It's just mad to me when there are relatively simple things that would help a bit (I know because I do them myself and for most people it's common sense).  Little steps, keep practising, one day it will be easier!  Lol.  I hope your busy week has calmed down a bit now x

[lighter]

Whoo boy..... I'm re reading recent posts on this thread.......trying not to blink.

Lighter

[Twoapenny]

Whoo boy..... I'm re reading recent posts on this thread.......trying not to blink.

Lighter

Lighter, I hope you're doing okay.  Is there any sense of normality creeping back in yet?  I hope there's some level of function now with the very basics covered, at least.

I've pondered some more (in fact I keep waking up in the night with it all going round in my brain) and I think I did write a post a while back about me selecting people who don't cope because I feel inferior to people who've got their s**t together.  I can't remember if I actually wrote it or just thought it, but it makes sense to me.  I am trying very hard to focus on my stuff and not be derailed by the need to rescue others.

We did have a really lovely experience last week.  My son started a new social group and watching him go in, shake everyone's hands, introduce himself and throw himself into the activities, without needing any prompting or support from me to do it, was a real testament to the well adjusted, confident man he's grown in to.  We spent so many years at home because socialising was such a nightmare, and when we did do it, it had to be really carefully managed.  So to see him go in, settle down straight away and really enjoy himself, was really lovely.  He was buzzing when he came out, really happy and content.  It was amazing to see and has made me feel very hopeful for the future.  I told him at the weekend that I was very proud of the man he's become, and that I really admired all the difficult experiences he'd had through childhood and how he'd worked through them.  He blushed, it was so cute (but I can't say he's cute because it annoys him lol).  We've got a really good life now, for all sorts of different reasons but him thriving - despite the best efforts of many to thwart that - is a real balm.

[lighter]

Whoo boy..... I'm re reading recent posts on this thread.......trying not to blink.

Lighter

Lighter, I hope you're doing okay.  Is there any sense of normality creeping back in yet?  I hope there's some level of function now with the very basics covered, at least.

No, Tupp.  In fact I'm overwhelmed with the likely clogged aerators in bathroom sinks and mud in water heater and whatever fresh hell is possibly waiting back home.
I know there's a ton of debris and some glass in yard and driveway and roof, a long with damaged gutters, for certain.  I posted about feeling dizzy on another thread and I
hope it stops, completely, very soon.  It's much better, but adding to dismay over hurricane wreckage and lives, homes and infrastructure lost.

I've pondered some more (in fact I keep waking up in the night with it all going round in my brain) and I think I did write a post a while back about me selecting people who don't cope because I feel inferior to people who've got their s**t together.  I can't remember if I actually wrote it or just thought it, but it makes sense to me.  I am trying very hard to focus on my stuff and not be derailed by the need to rescue others.
I think I have done understanding, in my own way, of what you're going through with this.

We did have a really lovely experience last week.  My son started a new social group and watching him go in, shake everyone's hands, introduce himself and throw himself into the activities, without needing any prompting or support from me to do it, was a real testament to the well adjusted, confident man he's grown in to.  We spent so many years at home because socialising was such a nightmare, and when we did do it, it had to be really carefully managed.  So to see him go in, settle down straight away and really enjoy himself, was really lovely.  He was buzzing when he came out, really happy and content.  It was amazing to see and has made me feel very hopeful for the future.  I told him at the weekend that I was very proud of the man he's become, and that I really admired all the difficult experiences he'd had through childhood and how he'd worked through them.  He blushed, it was so cute (but I can't say he's cute because it annoys him lol).  We've got a really good life now, for all sorts of different reasons but him thriving - despite the best efforts of many to thwart that - is a real balm.

That's an amazing and hopeful day for you and son, (((Tupp.))). It's releasing happy chemicals just to read it🥰

[Hopalong]

I think I've loved Son from afar for ages, Tupp.

Otherwise, how to explain the tears that leapt after reading that account?

I feel so awed by him, and you, whose love and determination have made his life so good and his future so hopeful.

I was SO happy to read that! And again, awed. What you have done with heroic effort for so long for Son is the kind of life work that will never make the news. But oh it should.

hugs and respect,
Hops

[Twoapenny]

(((((((Lighter))))))))))  I'm not surprised you're overwhelmed - just reading the list felt overwhelming to me, so to experience it along with dizziness, long term problems to sort and general despair and difficulty all around - I can't even imagine.  All I can say is I hope that the to do list starts to feel more manageable and that as other folks lives start to settle more if all feels less overwhelming.  If I could sweep in on my broom stick to fetch and carry and sweep up, I would do so xx

[Twoapenny]

I think I've loved Son from afar for ages, Tupp.

Otherwise, how to explain the tears that leapt after reading that account?

I feel so awed by him, and you, whose love and determination have made his life so good and his future so hopeful.

I was SO happy to read that! And again, awed. What you have done with heroic effort for so long for Son is the kind of life work that will never make the news. But oh it should.

hugs and respect,
Hops

Aw, thanks, Hops.  I must admit I am really enjoying see the fruits of all those years of work showing themselves in how he is and the things he can manage now.  Really feels like we've got to a good point in life.  We met loads of people when we were away the other week and he chatted away to them, it's so different to some of his peers who, unfortunately, were so badly bullied in school and have been made to do things that they weren't ready to do, that they don't talk to anyone they don't know and won't go anywhere without a parent.  One of the mums I know still can't leave her son with anyone else and he's in his thirties.  I think the system fails them so badly, and I'm very grateful that I saw it early on and got him out.  I'm very lucky.  Not least because we've had unusually warm weather the last few days and I was gardening in a T shirt yesterday   Lol x

[Twoapenny]

I'm having very vivid dreams that my mum has died and I'm in her house.  It's weird that after all this time I can see every detail of her home in such detail, I know where everything is and I feel that horrible tense feeling that was always present.  It's so vivid that when I wake up I have a few moments of not being sure where I am  This morning I turned the wrong way out of my bedroom and instead of heading for my bathroom, I took two steps toward where her bathroom would be before realising I'm not there.

There is nowhere else I would feel I could say this, but I am looking forward to her passing.  When I think of it, I feel such a sense of relief and an unsnapping of chains, even though I've had so little contact with her for so many years now.  I still feel this malefic presence around me when I think of her.  I feel enormously sad that all I have with my mum is a sense of wishing she were gone.  I feel angry at her stupidity for doing such terrible things to people who loved her, when what she wanted so desperately was to be loved.  She had everything she wanted, and she harmed us all again and again until we all turned away.  I still struggle to see how anyone can be in that situation and not, at some point, wonder if they were doing something wrong and seek help from a therapist or some sort of self help situation.  Truly baffling. 

Anyhoo.  It is not a problem, more just an observation.  I'm trying very hard to stick to a daily routine.  I am seeing some improvements in sleep and energy, despite the vivid dreaming.  We are having incredible weather at the minute, which I love.  I have lost a bit of weight.  Son and I have got into a better routine at home so the house and garden are coming together (and nothing in the garden is growing now, which is a relief.  The plan is to prune to buggery over the winter, get the broken fence replaced and then hopefully all will be easier to maintain through next spring/summer.

[Hopalong]

Oh Tupp, I completely understand and think your anticipation of your mother's death is not malevolent or macabre -- it's just honest. That's your very great gift, imo, the ability to see yourself and own and describe clearly what you think and feel.

And in the circumstances you were raised in, I'd have the exact same feeling of waiting for the sun. I felt the same way about Nmom, after that decade. She took all she could from me in terms of attention and compassion, and there was nothing left. With my D, I began to see even more clearly how this had been my pattern all along.

Now I'm more self-centered, but not with selfishness as much as seeing that my life will go all the way off the rails if I don't allow myself to be that real.

I've respected your compassion and lamented your lasting link, just as I did my own for a while. But in the year before her death my path cleared up, and I just admitted completely that I needed to be free of her, and knew her death would be a relief. It was. Immediately. I hope you'll truly feel that release and let her float off.

My SNbro's and D's attacks during the two years after made it harder, but it wasn't about grief for her, though there are moments I can experience that and feel...warm. It wasn't that I coldn't feel anyting tender for her ever, it was just that you can't heat and keep flattening a pancake so hard it becomes sealed to the pan. Then it just can't nourish you, and becomes hard scrapings. Inedible.

You've done a brilliant and very mindful job for years of unpicking the too-tight threads of that bond, imo. And now you're truly attentive to nourishing your own spirit, and son's. As it should be. There will be some genuine sadness, but I think you've already experienced the complicated version of grief, and have now made room for simple peace.

hugs,
Hops