Narcissism Part II

[Anonymous]

I'm sorry, Portia, that you feel hurt by me, and also so that you doubt your own smarts so much you need to challenge mine instead of challenging my view. Same goes for anyone else here who feels that their integrity and worth is challenged by my alternate views.

Guest,
I have watched your thread for days in utter amazement. You clearly love to:

agitate and question others' feelings while claiming to provide an alternative view
read your own posts and respond to everything and anything on the board as if you're an authority
ponder the lint in your navel

While you may have had some valid points along the way (focus on self rather than on others) the positive impact of your message gets lost in the judgmental tone, abundance and length of your posts. They've dominated the board so completely for days that they border on tenets of narcissim. Can you see this at all?

[Anonymous]

I am the person who posted what you copied and pasted from the Philski thread.

On the previous page of this here thread (I love THAT language), you wrote:

For example: "You think you're so smart, but look what you did!." In addition to being a pretty juvenile thing to say, it's also telling in subtext-land. To me, these kinds of statements translate to "I don't always feel so smart. I feel better about myself if I catch you in a failure." Or so it is so long as I'm thinking diligently in "I" Voice. If I'm not, and I'm thinking in fragile insecure words, I personalize it and feel bad - and violated.

I learned something by reading your words.  I also try not to use "you" statements because I do think they cause others to immediately feel defensive.  Unless, ofcourse, my goal is to cause someone else to feel that way, which I am guilty of intentionally doing so sometimes, I admit, but often after I have tried all else I can think of to communicate.

So far, I haven't really listened to the "you" statements that have been made toward me and have not tried to turn them around into some "I" statement the person might be trying to make.  This is interesting and I bet if I try to do more of that, I will indeed understand more about where the person is coming from, what they might be feeling, and why they are saying what they are saying.  Also, as you say, maybe it will help me not to feel immediately injured or insulted, and maybe, it will help me to respond more appropriately somehow?

Is it also an idea to take "I" statements and turn them around too?  I was just thinking about that and wondering.  For example, you suggested that you might not have used the words "stupid" and "silly", as I did in my post on the Philski thread.  So if I turn it around from "I might not have used the words "stupid" or "silly" to "You should not have used the words "stupd" or "silly", well.......that's a whole new concept, isn't it?

When I read what I've quoted of your words above, and when I read what you have written about language and it's many meanings and how we all use it differently, I can't help but wonder if it all might apply to the interaction you and Portia had here in this thread, and if it might be possible that neither person really meant to insult the other, and somehow simply miscommunicated ideas, and mis-assumed intentions?

I have to say, though, that I personally like the words "stupid" and "silly" when I use them to apply to "things that hurt", such as labels, or even "people" that do so.  It's my polite way of using excessive foul adjectives without using excessively foul adjectives.  Ofcourse, you may be right, it might be something in my use of language, that I could consider changing, if your "I" statement is turned into the "you" statement I suggested?

For now, my attempt to help another person see how silly and stupid labels really are, when it comes to making changes in how we live, what we think, feel and do about, and for ourselves, is a good thing, imo.
I think those words clearly express my opinion on those particular labels and how much use they are for the person labelled.

I am interested in hearing more of your ideas and I do not assume that your intention is to cause harm to or one up anyone.   I'm not labelling you as a trouble maker or anything else.

Guest for now

[Anonymous]

My posts do not dominate this board - maybe this thread, but  not the board.

Perhaps you perceive the length and abundance of the posts to be evidence of my narcissism, but I can postulate that your unrealistic assesment of my domination of the whole board may speak also to the same tenets - that somehow what I write is a judgement of you, personally, or that everything I write is designed to make you feel bad about yourself - in other words, about you.

For the record, I have posted only a few times in other threads, offering none of what is said here in this thread, and have not questioned anyone's means or habits, even if I've felt like it. for the most part, I have offerd only sympathy and validation for the poster - whether or not I like their language choice.

I have not derailed anyone else's post to promote my ideas or prosyletize or condemn. Period. This, however, has been done to me repeatedly on this thread, and more importantly, the original poster of another thread, wherein someone decided to take the thread off-track to confront me.

I, too, have experienced some utter amazment, but only in the case where I have been directly insulted have I "bit back". I don't like to fight, I like to discuss.

I was enjoying a fairly reasoned exchange with Bunny (even though we are not truly in agreement). I would appreciate if you would either join in with a salient point or just forget about me and this thread.

I promise never to hi-jack your thread and call you names; would you mind doing the same for me?

[Portia]

Discuss this if you wish:

These are academic concepts geared toward deveoping strategies for healing, not ultimate truths.

How much are you paying for objective consideration by posters here? What do you get out of our considering these concepts? Money? Kudos? Ideas? Feeling good about yourself? What’s your angle here? What do you want for yourself?

I’m available. But I doubt that I can be objective. I’m a human being and all of my experiences are subjective. I don’t think objectivity exists, unless you’re a rock.

And I don’t think ultimate truths exist either. Correction: if they do, we can't know them directly.

[Anonymous]

Guest for now:

Thank you, thank you thank you!!! I'm not sure I can express what a relief it is to read your post. I really appreciate your efforts to get past the "length and abundance" (guilty as charged) to ferret out the deeper meaning.

Just to be clear, I wasn'y really taking you to task for your choice of "stupid and silly" (I happen to agree with you), but more in a roundabout way was being defensive because I know so many people here do just think of me a s a troublemaker - so I feel like I have to walk on eggshells here! I'm sorry I used you as "my voice" to say the words ; Like I said, the ideas are getting sophisticated but I'm not altogether there yet.

I learned something by reading your words.

Just thank you, that makes me feel really good!

I also try not to use "you" statements because I do think they cause others to immediately feel defensive. Unless, ofcourse, my goal is to cause someone else to feel that way, which I am guilty of intentionally doing so sometimes, I admit, but often after I have tried all else I can think of to communicate.

Boy-howdy, do I relate to that.

When I read what I've quoted of your words above, and when I read what you have written about language and it's many meanings and how we all use it differently, I can't help but wonder if it all might apply to the interaction you and Portia had here in this thread, and if it might be possible that neither person really meant to insult the other, and somehow simply miscommunicated ideas, and mis-assumed intentions?  

An undeniably good point. However, I do think people sometimes deliberately insult others under the veil of humor. I have come to a point where I try to consider the sub-text, but as almost anyone here would probably agree, there is a point where sticking up for one's self is as important as identifying and understanding the subtext.

That said, that exchange was regrettable in many ways, one of which is that I ran out of patience and objectivity. And I meant the apology to Portia, too.

I really appreciate your post. I hope you visit more. Maybe we can explore also the idea that the labeller has something to lose in the act as well? what are your thoughts on this as it relates to YOU-I dynamic?

Troublemaker  

[Portia]

I'm sorry, Portia, that you feel hurt by me, and also so that you doubt your own smarts so much you need to challenge mine instead of challenging my view.

Wow is that back-handed or what! That sounds to me like “I’m sorry that you’re so stupid!”

That’s what I hear! You DO think I’m stupid don’t you? Do you?

I have a problem with anybody telling me that they know better than me - for sure - what I do in my head!

“you doubt your own smarts so much” - so you’ve decided that is the truth all on your own hey? I have no say in this? You’re undoubtedly completely correct in your view of me? Is that what you’re saying? It sure sounds like it me. You’re telling me how my mind works? Are you?????

IF you are - what a put-down!

[Portia]

These are academic concepts geared toward deveoping strategies for healing, not ultimate truths.

How much are you paying for objective consideration by posters here? What do you get out of our considering these concepts? Money? Kudos? Ideas?

Feeling good about yourself?

What’s your angle here?

What do you want for yourself?

[Anonymous]

the positive impact of your message gets lost in the judgmental tone, abundance and length of your posts. They've dominated the board so completely for days that they border on tenets of narcissim. Can you see this at all?

Well I didn't read this person's posts as having a judgmental tone and as far as I know there is no rule about length of posts on this board.

Does it bother you that this poster's posts "have dominated", in your opinion, the board for days?

I'm not trying to upset you by asking this.  I'm seriously wondering why any one poster's posts being on top of this board would bother anyone else?  Isn't that just what people are interested in responding to at the time?  Isn't that just people's free will and choice as to what to post to, speak about, voice their opinions, ideas, feelings, experiences on?

How does a person's posts being most responded to here make that person N?  I don't get it.

Guest for now

[Anonymous]

However, I do think people sometimes deliberately insult others under the veil of humor.

What would you say if I told you that Portia has an amazing sence of humour and tends to kid around quite a bit?  What you describe above is sarcasm, right?   It's hard to determine the difference here where there is no inflection or tone, for me, anyway.  I think I sometimes get the two mixed up.  Maybe it's a good thing sometimes, now that I think about it?

I'm sorry, Portia, that you feel hurt by me,...

This part of your appology sounds sincere to me but it does not take responsibility for causing the hurt, only acknowledges the hurt and the fact that Portia feels the hurt was caused by you.

and also so that you doubt your own smarts so much you need to challenge mine...

Here, imo, your appology is practically nullified (sorry--I don't mean to hurt your feelings by saying this--I'm just observing and pointing out what my take is......it's not bible truth).  Here it seems more like an allegation, than an appology.  I think I would feel attacked, rather than appologized to, if this were said to me.  What do you think?

Thank you, thank you thank you!!! I'm not sure I can express what a relief it is to read your post.

You're welcome, welcome, welcome!  Hope I haven't just cooked my own goose by saying what I'm reading!  (I have a pretty good sence of humour too, by the way).

I think we all have to be careful about the way we use words.  I also think we are all only human and will mess up sometimes.

I...was being defensive because I know so many people here do just think of me a s a troublemaker - so I feel like I have to walk on eggshells here!

Don't assume to know what "so many people" ..."think" , is my best advice.  Not everybody has posted yet.  The labellers ARE the troublemakers here.  They push your buttons and cause you to feel whatever...... that causes you to respond.... whatever and they can get.......... whatever they want...(some) I suspect.

Nevermind silly stuff, I say.

Guest for now.

[Anonymous]

Hi Portia:

What’s your angle here? What do you want for yourself?

In a nutshell what I want:

Guest For Now's reply above - a combination of acknowledgement and challenge that harmoniously co-exist, an invitation to continue the discussion based not on gut reactions but on careful coinsideration and reasoned exchange, under the assumption that no harm is intended, with questions rather than accusations or condemnations.

Not to mention the source of much of my inspiration - the concepts of voice as presented by Dr. Grossman's essays. this is the only place I have seen these specific ideas addressed, so I've stuck it out , assuming that at least some of you have read them and explored the ideas therein with the same interest as I ahve. Of course, I have been dangerously venturing into ass-out-of-u-and-me land, it appears.

I was on the verge of sighing and giving it up, but I was feeling like Bunny and I (and for a brief moment, you and I) were starting to approximate reasoned exchanges. But I have to say that Guest For Now's post describes by example what I want better than I could myself.

How much are you paying for objective consideration by posters here?

Been feeling like I pay quite a big price. It seems that many posters feel I do not deserve reasoned criticism but instead feel that because I have challenged some of the status quo ideas that I deserve contempt, instead.

What do you get out of our considering these concepts? Money? Kudos? Ideas? Feeling good about yourself?

I have not found any money in it so far. I will let you know if I do. I suppose that could be a good thing, and if there is money to be found, I look forward to finding it!

I get, through my own "pondering of lint in my navel", a gradual clarity about voice issues and voice reclamation-development strategies.
Tthrough exchanges with posters like Guest For Now, I may gain even greater clarity, given that her challenges are thought-provoking yet still reasoned and kind. And it doesn't hurt that, like me, she can speak to where she has applied some ideas effectively and where she has not. I sometime learn an awful lot from people who are trying and failing, succeding and not, at the same tasks as me.

Kudos never hurts, but is not necessary - and I don't even want it if it's insincere. So it is better, even if it hurts, that posters have said what they thought/felt honestly than if they had pretended to feel otherwise. I don't like some of the things that have been said/suggested about me, but I guess that it is also an important exercise to stick up for myself and beliefs as politely as possible, even in the face of hostility. I'm sorry I was not so graceful with you.

New ideas do come gradually, sometimes, with lengthy discussion/consideration, even if you're only talking to yourself.

Feeling good about myself is the ultimate goal of exploring language and voice issues.

(I realize now that I am assuming Guest For Now is Female - Please correct me if I'm wrong. I guess my experience says that most posters are female. Please correct me, GFN, if I am wrong! I hope there is no inadvertent insult in this assumption!)

Thanks for asking.

[bunny]

I believe that, by extension, use of terms like "N" and "Victim", even internally,  we can also affect those physiological outcomes. These terms and others are provacative (to different degrees with different people, of course, but provacative nonetheless), in that they provoke feelings specific to the term (N=Anger, Victim=powerlessness).

It depends on how deeply people feel provoked by these phrases. There is also (IMO) the concept of "justice." If people get a sense of justice by using these words instead of acting out, then I say go for it.

In that situation, other posters here spoke aout about what they felt was a potentially hazardous behavior on the part of the privacy-invader. They pointed out that even though her immediate desire to assuage her curiousity (and her possible deeper desire to stay connected, as some pointed out - important) did not change the situation or help her personally in any way, it only served to keep her stuck, more or less. [...]

I see this as kind of complex. What you write above sounds accurate. Another thing I observed was an identification-projection deal going on. What she described doing and her feelings about it, triggered people's stuff. Our posts showed our projections about it. We may have oscillated between identifying with the poster, and also identifying with her ex whose boundaries she crossed. Many people have been 'victims' of boundary crossings and many have fantasized about invading other's boundaries. So there was a lot of stuff going on here. I don't exclude myself from it. Bottom line, IMO this wasn't really about the poster or trying to warn her. It was about our feelings on boundaries.

I think my postulation is based more on the idea of "acting-in" than "acting-out", and the idea that language can keep you connected to the negative power dynamic (N=powerful, Victim=powerlessness) even as you try to break free.

Sure. Along the same lines as "the power of positive thinking" i.e. the power of suggestion. I agree totally. OTOH, people aren't going to do this so I'm ready for it.

I do know, however, that once my academic understanding was firmly in place, my emotional state made faster progress.

Some people are like this (me included). Others need to process things somatically. They aren't into the intellectual stuff and it doesn't resonate with them.

Of course not, at least not in the global sense of changing the whole world. For me, however, refining my understanding of the YOU-I differential helps a great deal in terms of interpreting not only my own speech, but also the speech of others. Can I apply this in every single situation? No. Sometimes I can't make my idea clear without a "you". But as I practice evaluating in YOU-I terms what I am about to say, it becomes more reflexive and quick over time, and as a result, so does my ability to evaluate what others are saying to me, applying the same rules. This helps me to resist unrealistic feelings of worthlessness, powerlessness, and a whole host of other self-directed negative emotions when on the receiving end of those nasty YOU statements. It also helps me be less angry and resentlful, e.g., to refrain from taking the poison.

I've learned some refinements of the "I-you" statements in couples therapy. With my H and I, the I-statements didn't work at all. Did not change one thing. But when we said, "I wish" instead of "I feel xxx" or "I would like xxx" it was more helpful. Whatever works.

True, but I think the phrase "in a borderline or narcissistic way" is salient. Many people who act out in these ways under some conditions may not meet the criteria for a full-blown personality disorder under all conditions.

I think personality disorders are extreme conditions. I would imagine your mother has at least one PD, she sounds extremely paranoid for one thing. And her murderous rage, to me, was so impulsive and dangerous that I imagine she has severe psychiatric problems. So I would put her in that category as to how I'd deal with her.

I do think one needs objectivity, which, if you have hurt or traumatized in some way, you necessarily don't have. Also true that some professionals can be clueless, but that's irrelevant unless said professional is evaluating the individual directly. If one asks their therpist to diagnose their "abuser" indirectly and through the anecdotes of the "victim", they are unlikely to get a response more satisfying than "maybe".

The therapist isn't there to present diagnoses, as it's not helpful to the therapy most of the time. Some of them will never reveal their diagnosis to the client. Anyway I feel pretty objective. I don't need another's diagnosis to know what I'm dealing with. And I'm not that confident about professionals knowing more than I do about it. I know quite a bit about it. And if I deal with the person inaccurately, they will act out in a certain way and I'll change my idea. This is actually what a therapist does but I'm not their therapist.

bunny

[Anonymous]

Hi again T, (don't want to call you that nasty name--but if you insist).

Maybe we can explore also the idea that the labeller has something to lose in the act as well? what are your thoughts on this as it relates to YOU-I dynamic?

I will have to think about that.  What does a person who so quickly labels others lose in the process?

Well....I guess they might lose an opportunity to really get to know someone whom they might later enjoy knowing?  Possibly they might lose a chance to learn and grow as a result of knowing that person?  If they mislabel the person, they might end up paying for that later too?  They may also be seen by others as judgmental and unfair?

As it relates to YOU-i dynamic?  You've lost me.  What do you mean?

I have a 7 week old puppy and I must go live puppy life now.  I'll be back, but I can't say when.  Sometimes it might be days before I get time to visit, especially now that turbo-pup is here to stay.

Enjoy your day and keep posting your thoughts, feelings, and ideas.  You have a right.

Guest for now.

[Anonymous]

Don't assume to know what "so many people" ..."think" , is my best advice. Not everybody has posted yet. The labellers ARE the troublemakers here. They push your buttons and cause you to feel whatever...... that causes you to respond.... whatever and they can get.......... whatever they want...(some) I suspect.

Nevermind silly stuff, I say.

Thanks for the perspective and the support. I have been feeling increasingly under attack, which make it very hard to maintain composure and grace and still say what I mean effectively and gracefully, with consideration for others.

No, your goose is not coooked. I appreciate the points you are trying to make and don't find them completely without merit. However, I think Portia and I should duke it out directly with each other if necessary, or just agree to try harder to get along and understand each other objectively, or just leave each other alone - whatever works best for everyone concerned.

[bunny]

Re: the Portia-Guest misunderstanding...

My feeling is that Guest isn't familiar with Portia's style which is sardonic and British. Guest took it at face value, seriously, and her feelings were very deeply hurt. She could have asked, "Portia, I'm really stunned and hurt by your phrase "ACK" etc. Did you really mean that?" Then Portia could have cleared it up very quickly. On the other side, Portia might not realize that people who aren't familiar with her might take her words seriously and feel really bad. Now it's blown into a big thing and I kind of think it could be fixed even now by a few conciliatory words (if they want to).

just my view...and unsolicited opin...take for what it's worth...etc....

bunny

[Anonymous]

Hey T, before I go,

I have been feeling increasingly under attack, which make it very hard to maintain composure and grace and still say what I mean effectively and gracefully, with consideration for others.

At least your objective is in the right place!  Wouldn't it be fantastic if we could all do that, even while feeling under attack.

I think Portia and I should duke it out directly with each other...

so butt out, right?  Point taken without insult.

Hope it works out positively for you both.

Guest for now.