Author Topic: Voicelessness ?  (Read 4213 times)

Narcltd

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 8
Voicelessness ?
« on: February 14, 2005, 02:47:50 PM »
Hi,
I am pretty sure my mother is an N and I think my father was too busy fighting with her to take much notice of me as a child. Leaving me pretty much ignored.
My mother gradually fell out with every member of the extended family by the time I was 10 which isolated us as a famiy unit, just the 3 of us. My aunties last words to me were "I know she is your mother, but I hate her.". All I can remember as a child is my mother screaming at my father or she would sit there sulking for days and weeks. Christmas, Holidays, New years eve's, Birthday,s nearly all were spent in silence or screaming matches.
At around 12/13 my schoolfriends decided to ostracise (not speak to) me. for no reason just random bullying, that lasted about a year. If that didn't dent my self-esteem enough I had to deal with severe acne and needed specialist treatment.
At 17 I was diagnosed with depression at 18 Manic-Depression a few years ago social-phobia was added.
I am not scared of people and I don't dislike them, I just get nothing from being around other people. I feel like an observer or a piece of glass, I have to pretend I care about whatever they say. I have no ambitions or dream's  or opinions of my own.
The weird thing for me is that most of the time I don't want to get better, I just don't care. Does this sound like voicelessness to anyone here ?

Anonymous

  • Guest
Voicelessness ?
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2005, 02:55:06 PM »
talk to somebody about your feelings to get connected.

Wispery

  • Guest
Voicelessness ?
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2005, 04:15:15 PM »
It sounds to me like you feel completely detached from the human race. Do you really not know why, or understand? The family disfunction is responsible for taking your voice away, and making you feel like you don't connect with the human race. It sounds to me as though you are suffering from the symptoms of depression...isolating yourself from people, and a feeling like you just don't really care...but you do...or you wouldn't be here searching for answers. Please talk to someone. You don't have to go on feeling this way forever. Don't be afraid to ask for help. Most of the people on this board can completely relate to what you are going through. Is love the thing that is missing from your life? It was always that, for me.

bunny

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 713
Re: Voicelessness ?
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2005, 04:39:26 PM »
Welcome Narcltd,

It sounds like your mother and father managed to make a smoking ruin of their lives and took you along with them. Your aunt deserted you, left you to your fate. Then your schoolmates were sadistic as well.

So it makes sense to me that you have decided that people are far too dangerous, risky, and destructive. And now you're protecting yourself. Unfortunately the price you're paying is very high. And yes, it sounds like voicelessness.

bunny

Blue Topaz

  • Guest
Voicelessness ?
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2005, 06:37:29 PM »
Quote
Does this sound like voicelessness to anyone here ?


Hello

You sound like you are depressed, which you have already been diagnosed with.  A part of that could be related to your withdrawl and emotional disconnection from people.

If you always have a severe performance anxiety type feeling around people in very benign situations, and extreme nervousness about being scrutinized and judged by others, along with physcial symptoms such as trembling, blushing, sweating, and avoid social situations because of that, then this is social phobia.  

If you feel invisible, ignored, like your opinions and wants don't matter or have value, or scared you will pay an emotional price for voicing an opinion, or like you are unimportant, have nothing to offer, have no real identity... These are at least some things related to feeling voiceless.

Quote
I just get nothing from being around other people. I feel like an observer or a piece of glass, I have to pretend I care about whatever they say. I have no ambitions or dream's or opinions of my own.


This sounds like voicelessness.  I can relate as I can remember in my teens & early 20's (now in 30's) I used to feel like an inanimate object within a group of people.

Quote
The weird thing for me is that most of the time I don't want to get better, I just don't care.


The emotional pain, confusion & stress of it all for so long can bring on a deep sense of weariness.   A lot of times we do really care but it takes emotional & physical energy & strength, a sense of hope, a direction, etc. to start to dig our way out of it.  It often seems like too much and we just become stuck where we are.  Even if it is a terrible place to be in, it can seem "comfortable" compared to changes we'd have to make & gigantic mountain it seems we have to climb to get out of it.

With some good outside help & support (counseling, support groups on & offline) hope  & motivation can return, and things get built upon from there.

Take good care,

BT

Anonymous

  • Guest
Voicelessness ?
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2005, 10:09:14 AM »
Welcome Narcltd!

Sorry to hear how down you are feeling and sorry you had to live through such a painful childhood.    It was not nice or fair and it has certainly hurt you.  The pain doesn't have to last forever though.

Quote
I am not scared of people and I don't dislike them, I just get nothing from being around other people.


What I get from other people is a sense of travelling the road together, sort of deal.  Life sucks sometimes but it can be very sweet too and sharing experiences/hearing about other people's experiences gives me a feeling of being understood and of understanding them.  Talking with other people helps me to express my feelings and ideas.  Being around others helps me to feel......warm and close instead of cold and lonely.  Learning about other people is interesting for me.  The more I feel I know a person, the more comfortable I feel around them, and the easier it is for me to share my feelings with that person, and the more I want to know about their feelings.  I start to care about people by sharing and listening.

The list is much longer but the point is.....being with other people helps me to get connected with them......get a feeling of acceptance.....get my thoughts out of my head and into the open......get a good laugh, once in awhile.......get constructive criticism, every so often......get a hug when I need one, or give one when I think someone else needs one.   You can get things from being around other people but the trick, I think, is to give....something too.

Your parents were not very giving....to say the least....and so maybe this is something that feels weird because it's been so alien in your experience?  Maybe when you did try to share a feeling, an idea, give any part....of you to your parents.....maybe they ignored/rejected/insulted/discounted/etc???  This would naturally encourage you to crawl deeper into a safer place....a bit of a shell??

Quote
I feel like an observer or a piece of glass,....


Yes.  Maybe you feel like you are not really connected at all to other people, just observing them but not like them???   Do you feel like they can see through you, like a piece of glass?

Quote
I have to pretend I care about whatever they say
.

This is something you've decided.  The fact is.....you don't have to do anything.  You can say:  "I don't really care about that"  or "I don't think about that" or "I have no opinion on that" and it's ok.  You are entitled to be excited about, or not bother with, whatever topics come up in this life.  There is no law that says you have to pretend to care about stuff.  As a matter of fact, you may be further belittling yourself by pretending?  Do you think you feel happy, or not so happy with yourself, when you pretend to care?   Do you think other people sense that you are pretending?

Quote
I have no ambitions or dream's or opinions of my own.


This is where I think you need to focus.  The past is over and you can't change it.  The future.......could be different....if you decide to do your best to make it so.  Is there anything you would like to see happen in your life in the future?  Would you like a friend?  A career that you enjoy?  A family of your own?  Do you believe it is possible for you to have an enjoyable life?  Can you find an interest or a hobby that you can get interested in and have fun doing?  How about a pet?

It sounds to me like you are feeling sort of numb inside.  If that is true....do you think it will help to try to stimulate your mind?

Quote
The weird thing for me is that most of the time I don't want to get better, I just don't care.


I don't think it's weird at all.  If you are unhappy, unfullfilled, lonely, feeling unconnected and alien to the world, to people, the safest thing to do is.... not to care.  It takes energy to care.  If you feel drained of energy then it's not so easy to bother to care.

The trick here is to gain some energy somehow then?  Eat healthy.  Work on changing your thinking.....from the past.....to now and the future.  Even if you set one small goal......some small thing you would like to accomplish....and try to do it....you will feel better about yourself and get a bit of confidence that you are capable of doing more.  Baby steps....as has been said so often here on this board.  

Glad you are here posting and taking this step toward reaching out to other people.  Maybe you are better at it than you may have otherwise guessed?  Best to you  Narcltd.

GFN

longtire

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 564
Voicelessness ?
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2005, 12:25:29 PM »
Narcltd,
You post really, really touches a nerve with me.  I almost posted earlier, but wanted to give myself more time to consider before replying.

I was raised in a house where my father was invisilbe even when he was there.  My mother seemed angry and looking for an excuse to punish or demean most of the time.  Nobody ever talked about their feelings.  When I tried, I either got back total disinterest or an explanation that this is how the world works (not talking about or getting help with feelings) and I would have to find a way to deal with.

I did find a way to deal with the fact that I had these intense feelings that would not go away.  I told myself that I was an alien who did not belong on this planet since I had feelings and no one else (the message I got from my parents) either had feelings or found any value in them.  I don't mean that I pretended to be an alien or that it was an act to get pity.  I truly felt like I had no place, and never told anyone about it except my therapist about it.  I suppressed the feelings that naturally showed on my face as a child.  I withdrew to protect myself from my mothers anger and my fathers implicit message that I was not important enough to bother paying any attention to.  I've spent the rest of my life either suffering under these actions or working to change them.

I was physically bullied for many years until I "learned" not to let my feelings show, either in my behavior, or on my face.  Now, I can see that I expected that there wasn't anyone else out there "like" me who would be safe to be around.  I believe now that this drew the sharks like blood in water.  I had never been given a reason to believe or expect that I would not or should not be attacked.  I had never been given the message that I had any inherent worth or value, just by simply being alive.

Eventually I had a "moderate" major depressive collapse and started therapy.  (Moderate, my ass!)  I was also diagnosed with schizoid tendencies, which I disagree with quite strongly.  Schizoid Personality Disorder is simply having very little contact with others and no desiring any more contact with others.  For me, it is the second part, not desiring contact, that makes this diagnosis laughable for me.  For all my life, I have wanted NOTHING more than to be close to other people and feel safe doing it.  There was a long period time in my life, though, when this desire was so defended and protected that I wasn't able to express it.

After therapy and learning about myself and who I really am, I realize the truth.  I am and always have been an amazing, caring, loving person, with many unique and wonderful traits.  The only thing that was ever "wrong" with me was that I thought there was something wrong with me.  I got that message from my parents who thought there was something wrong with them, whether they were aware of it or not.  For years I told myself that I didn't understand people, that I couldn't ever have a caring relationship, that no one liked me, that I was unlikeable, and on and on and on.  In the end, I found that none of that is true.  The whole time I was trying to convince myself that that the message I got from my parents was true inspite of all my observations and all evidence to the contrary.   During this time, I did not feel connected to other people, no matter how hard I "tried."  It was only after I started to give up the idea that there was something wrong with me that I was able to begin to connect to people.

Quote from: Narcltd
Hi,
I am pretty sure my mother is an N and I think my father was too busy fighting with her to take much notice of me as a child. Leaving me pretty much ignored.
My mother gradually fell out with every member of the extended family by the time I was 10 which isolated us as a famiy unit, just the 3 of us. My aunties last words to me were "I know she is your mother, but I hate her.". All I can remember as a child is my mother screaming at my father or she would sit there sulking for days and weeks. Christmas, Holidays, New years eve's, Birthday,s nearly all were spent in silence or screaming matches.
At around 12/13 my schoolfriends decided to ostracise (not speak to) me. for no reason just random bullying, that lasted about a year. If that didn't dent my self-esteem enough I had to deal with severe acne and needed specialist treatment.
At 17 I was diagnosed with depression at 18 Manic-Depression a few years ago social-phobia was added.
I am not scared of people and I don't dislike them, I just get nothing from being around other people. I feel like an observer or a piece of glass, I have to pretend I care about whatever they say. I have no ambitions or dream's or opinions of my own.
The weird thing for me is that most of the time I don't want to get better, I just don't care. Does this sound like voicelessness to anyone here ?


All this leads back to your question.  If you don't believe you have the ability to talk about yourself, in a normal tone of voice, without any other requirements on the situation and be heard and be accepted and appreciated for who you are, then yes, you are voiceless.  Not because you don't have a voice, but because you don't use it, based on the ideas that you believe which may not even be your true ideas.  Posting here is a great way to excercise your voice, and there are many to hear and appreciate what you have to say.

By the way, I don't put much stock in diagnosis.  It can be helpful as long as it helps orient you in a useful direction for awareness and treatment.  However, even the best diagnosis is only ever a crude swipe at you.  You are far more complex than a neat little box to be checked on an insurance form.

I hope this helps.
longtire

- The only thing that was ever really wrong with me was that I used to think there was something wrong with *me*.  :)

Narcltd

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 8
Voicelessness ?
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2005, 02:49:44 PM »
Hi,
Thanks for taking the time to reply and for your opinions. I find this area very, very complicated and hard to understand so I will just make a few quick points.

I am not depressed now, my doctor's current opinion is social-phobia and lack of motivation.
His and everyone elses basic response to what I tried to explain in my first post is "the more you try the easier it gets".
Well I have been trying for years and the more I try the more I feel exactly the same.

mum

  • Guest
Voicelessness ?
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2005, 03:27:02 PM »
Narcltd:
An important question for you: WHAT DO YOU WANT?

I am confused.  If you don't care, is it that someone else cares and you just go along with that....or do you actually care?  If so, about what?
What's the real problem here?  If you don't care, why are you in therapy again?  Who is trying to "fix" your apathy?  You?
If you don't care/ maybe you don't have a problem with yourself, just other people do.  Who matters?
If you keep on trying and trying....what is it you are trying to do?
Maybe you should stop all this trying.  If you do the same thing over and over again and expect a different result....hmmmm.

AGAIN: do you or don't you care?  If you don't, what are you doing here? Go enjoy whatever little it is you do enjoy (eating, sleeping?) and stop "trying" about it.

People spend lifetimes trying to become "observers", by the way.  If it bothers you, feeling like a piece of glass, then is that what you care about?  If you are fine with that...um, what's the problem?
 

I am spending most of my adult life trying NOT to care, not to ATTACH to that which I cannot change. Most pain comes from this kind of attachment.  This way of looking at life has saved me and my relationships.  I am able to see the joy in life and let the rest go.
I think I can say, most people on this board wished they didn't care so damn much what their respective N's have done or do.  If you don't care, you can't be hurt, really, right?  So is your "not caring" for real, or just BS to cover caring sooooo much!?
       Sounds like your childhood sucked, so is it that you care about not caring about that (and see that you are doing that to avoid healing?)

If you have no voice, but don't want one, I mean really don't want one....then what again is the problem?

What do you want?  It  may be important for YOU to determine that.

catlover

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 64
Voicelessness ?
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2005, 06:06:09 PM »
Hi Narcltd,

Welcome to this board!  I can totally relate to how you describe your family/social life.  Mine was so similar.  

I have some observations about your statement that you "have to pretend" you care about what other people say.  I had this experience a lot throughout my life, and actually did drugs and alcohol quite a bit in order to feel interested in hanging out with other people.  But I wouldn't suggest that!  In fact, I have discovered that I AM interested in what people say and DO like to talk to them, but only if it is about subjects that I find interesting.  These topics are psychology, family systems, spirituality, cats, and some other things that are mostly NOT what people talk about on a casual basis in society.  (Several times I've had to excuse myself to go to the bathroom because I simply could not stand listening to someone talk to me about a topic I was not interested in, such as eyebrow tweezing... this one person could go on about eyebrow tweezing for ten minutes!)  Perhaps if you found a forum where you could meet other people who were interested in, and open to, discussing topics you find interesting, you wouldn't feel like you had to pretend.  

In fact... maybe HERE you have actually found an online version of such a forum:  you obviously are interested, at least a little, in what people here have to say because you have read some of it.  And, you have "talked to us" by writing on this board and asked for feedback - all showing your interest.  

You may be able to find a group of people in your community who like to talk about this kind of stuff in person.  I consider myself quite lucky, because I am an alcoholic and have found just such a group in Alcoholics Anonymous.  We spend hours in meetings talking about this kind of stuff, and then go out for coffee afterwards to talk about it some more!  There are all kinds of "Anonymous" groups, and you may find one that suits you (e.g., Emotions Anonymous, Codependents Anonymous, Overeaters Anonymous, etc.).  Or, you may look on the internet and find some type of "discussion group" in your area.....

Just some thoughts... Good luck
Gwyn

BlueTopaz

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 113
Voicelessness ?
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2005, 09:23:50 PM »
Quote
His and everyone elses basic response to what I tried to explain in my first post is "the more you try the easier it gets".
Well I have been trying for years and the more I try the more I feel exactly the same.


I'm not sure exactly what aspect/s you mean bit "it" (as in getting easier) but this statement that is often true for most people, tends not to be the case for social phobia often.  It can be very rigid.

For SP it can be helpful for many, to have a very, very specific treatment regime.  You take one feared situation at a time and do systematic desensitization.  That can help improve things.  

I found that if I just threw myself head on into a very high fear situation, it did not help at all.  In fact, it only reinforced the fear.  So the next time I did it I was probably more anxious than the first time, and it never got any better.   I needed to take things in increments, and start at less fearful things.  That helps to build confidence.

Anyway, I guess you would have discussed all of that with your therapist, and again, I don't know if the SP aspect is what you were talking about as in not getting easier.

If not, then I guess ignore the rest of this message, because the whole post is basically about that  :wink:

I thought to speak to that because I had pretty severe social phobia since pre-teen, and although it improved, had it enough, right on up to the end of my 20's.  I now (just the other side of 35) only have  more generalized anxiety about certain things, and some physiological "panic disorder-like" symptoms here & there (i.e. some symptoms of panic attacks but they never get full blown).  Nobody who met me would realize anything about the anxiety, but I still have my times of struggle.

If by chance you would like some referrals as to some very decent online communities that deal with that, and also good sites for general information, feel free to PM me.

BT

bunny

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 713
Voicelessness ?
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2005, 10:01:13 AM »
Quote from: Narcltd
His and everyone elses basic response to what I tried to explain in my first post is "the more you try the easier it gets".
Well I have been trying for years and the more I try the more I feel exactly the same.


Actually most people did not say this at all. I didn't, for one. I wonder if that's a tape running through your head that erases other messages coming in...

The person to connect with is yourself. After that you'll see what you want to do with others. There's no law saying you have to connect with other people. Many of us connect briefly and then detach. It's possible that you have a very high expectation of what connection would look like, and it's overwhelming. The therapist's comments aren't very informative either. "No motivation" isn't a therapeutic comment, it's more like a criticism!  :cry:

keep posting,
bunny

Anonymous

  • Guest
Voicelessness ?
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2005, 10:45:39 AM »
Hello again Narcltd:

Quote
Well I have been trying for years


This may sound like a silly question but....trying what for years?  Would you explain more please?  Trying to achieve what?

Quote
...and the more I try the more I feel exactly the same.


What things have you tried?  How did you feel while you were doing those things?  How did you feel before and after?  Feel the same what?

I'm asking because this statement does sound like something a person who is depressed might say.  How do you feel now?

Do you think your doctor has helped you?  In what ways?

I know these are a lot of questions but the answers might help you to sort out exactly

Quote
... what I tried to explain in my first post


I thought you were expressing that you feel kind of hopeless and even a bit helpless about your life?  That you feel different than other people and don't  see the point of being around them?  Maybe lonely, sad and kind of numb?  Am I close?   If not, then please tell us more.

I hope you will keep posting.

GFN

Narcltd

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 8
Voicelessness ?
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2005, 10:58:06 AM »
Quote from: bunny
Quote from: Narcltd
His and everyone elses basic response to what I tried to explain in my first post is "the more you try the easier it gets".
Well I have been trying for years and the more I try the more I feel exactly the same.


Actually most people did not say this at all. I didn't, for one. I wonder if that's a tape running through your head that erases other messages coming in...

Hi,
I mean't most people and medical people I know in real life not anyone here.

Anonymous

  • Guest
Voicelessness ?
« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2005, 11:03:45 AM »
So what do you think about what the people here have said?

GFN