Help me understand

[mudpuppy]

I have posted previously about my wacko brother and our continuing soap opera. It was the thread titled "Destroying an N isn't revenge" or something close to that. It was posted under "guest"

What I am having a hard time understanding is why I don't feel the same emotions so many on this board do.  I'm a very tenderhearted person toward my wife and daughter and friends. I feel bad if I run over a squirrel. I even cry when I watch "Old Yeller". So why do I care so little about the loss of the relationship with my brother. I read about the children of Ns and the ex spouses of Ns and even the ex boy or girlfriends of Ns. The large majority seem to be overwhelmed with sadness and grief over what they have lost. I'm not. Sure I'd like to knock his arrogant fat head off or open up his skull and remove the disease in there, but grief? No.

It can't be because I'm a man. The men here seem at least as heart broken over their loss as the women. It can't be because we are blood relations because thats what the children of Ns are, although parent /child relationships are a lot different than sibling's. It can't be because he has been a jerk for so long because the same thing applies for parent/child relationships.

The one part I do understand is a couple that has  kids. That I get.

 However I almost feel guilty when I read some of the posts here because nothing would please me more than never having to see or talk to this jackass again. It puts a smile on my face just knowing that someday I won't have to. Maybe I'm not as nice a guy as I think. Are there other people like me who plan on having a party and setting off fireworks the day they can kiss the loony tune in their life sayonara for good? Any thoughts would be appreciated, especially from people who are torn up over someone they've only known a few years or months who turned out to be an N.

PS. I'm not trying to be a smartass or hurt anyone's feelings. I really don't get it. It seems perfectly reasonable to be overjoyed that somone who causes us so much pain would be excised from our lives.

[Brigid]

Mudpuppy,
I think I can address this, as I had what I think are two N men in my life, my father and my husband (no doubt about him) and had very different reactions to the end of those relationships.

My father was verbally abusive, never showed an ounce of love or caring for me or my brother, constantly criticized our every move.  Once I became an adult, I started standing up to him, which neither my mother or my brother would ever do.  I used to stand up to him on my mother's behalf, but she would still end up taking his side.  He was an alcoholic, too.  He and my mother lived about 6 hours from our family, so we would visit about once per year.  My stress level would rise the moment I got out of the car.  I finally had just had it with fighting with him, didn't want my children to be subjected to it anymore, and I walked away from my relationship with both my parents for 2 years.  When my brother called me two years later to say he was very ill, I took the kids and went to visit him.  He died about a month later.  I never shed a single tear or felt one ounce of pain at his passing.  We attended the funeral, but I just went through the motions and was glad he was out of my life.  Sometimes I have felt guilty about that, but I have never been able to muster any feelings for him.

The situation with my N husband is quite different.  For 22 years, I actually thought I was married to a great guy who had some intimacy issues, but I was willing to live with that.  Once I found out that he was having an affair and had been lying to me and hiding things for most of our married life I began to see that he was not the man I thought he was.  He was able to walk away from our marriage and children without a single bit of regret or pain.  I was devastated by finding out so much in such a short amount of time.  He was not an N who demonstrated anger like my father, so the obvious signs of N behavior were not present.  I actually loved him a great deal as I think many people on this site have loved their N partners.  They can be almost hypnotic in the realm of love.

You would obviously not have had that kind of relationship with your brother, so you were not blinded by the charm and false love that we receive from spouses/SO's.  I can see where you could easily cut off the relationship from him as you still have the love of your wife and children.  I was easily able to do that with my father when I still had the love of my children and what I thought was the love of my husband.

I hope this gives a little perspective into your inquiry.

Brigid

[Anonymous]

Brigid makes a good point. Where there is a lot of ambivalence, the grief over the lost connection, and the continued hope that it will be repaired, is powerful. Where there is little or no ambivalence, the feelings might be more about getting some relief and being liberated.

bunny

[guest from afar]

Mudpuppy,

I have been involved with several narcissists over my life to date (currently in my mid fifties).

I always saw my sister as a fruitcake, so no problem celebrating that she is no longer part of my life as we are at a formal standoff and I do not have to see her.

I celebrate the absence of my previous seven-year partner from my life as I had finally realised what a horrible man he was.

However, I find it difficult to think that my late mother was a narcissist, as I loved her and still love her. It is difficult to celebrate the loss of someone you still love.

S

[mudpuppy]

Thanks guys, I see the difference. He wasn't that bad as a kid. But as an adult I have essentially lost all affection for him. I guess I had years to adjust to his behavior unlike most spouses. Also I imagine it is a lot harder to be betrayed by a parent rather than a sibling. I must confess I sometimes pity him and I continue to pray for him as I love him in the sense of hoping for the best for him, but I just want my freedom and this leech off my back. My life is so simple and nice except for this one monumental albatross around my neck.

I believe my sorrow will increase if he dies before me. As a Christian it will hurt to think of his reward for his behavior. I will not celebrate that.

[vunil]

Another wrinkle is that there really are levels of narcissism.  The tough relationships in my life have been the ones where the person isn't utterly nuts.  Then there are always glimmers of affection and giving and the chance of things getting better.  And they aren't always fake-- some of it is real.  So, just completely giving up is hard because you are throwing out the baby with the bathwater.  The problem is, you just have to.

The few full-blown NPD people I've known have been easy to let go completely once I really walked away.

[in the shadows]

you care so little because the love was lost when he hurt you i felt the same when i stopped seeing my father but i understand now my mind is becoming clear now follow whatever dreams you have and live your lif to the full

[Anonymous]

Maybe some people are also mourning the losses of stuff they had dreamed of the in the relationships...such as the idea of feeling close to the other person, the hopes for things to improve in the future, the dream of really connecting??  When the light comes on and people really see that none of this is possible, there are huge losses to mourn.

In your case, maybe you never really expected any of this?  Maybe because:

He wasn't that bad as a kid. But as an adult I have essentially lost all affection for him. I guess I had years to adjust to his behavior...

Maybe you mourned whatever losses there were, slowly, incidiously, over the years, without really having a great period of grief???

I see mixed feelings in your words:

I'd like to knock his arrogant fat head off or open up his skull and remove the disease in there,

So it seems you feel a great amount of anger toward him but at the same time, your brain is telling you that he has a disease...which if it were say....cancer......you would probably not make this statement, right?  Thus guilt.

...I sometimes pity him and I continue to pray for him as I love him in the sense of hoping for the best for him,

So you feel sorry for him and pray for him and hope the best for him and love him...in the Christian sense?  But not a brotherly sense?  Or ...do you love him because he's your brother and you wouldn't really bother to love him otherwise?  You might feel pity for him, if he were a stranger, but you wouldn't care to knock his block off, would you?  Has the hurt he caused you.....simply generated years and years of anger?  Have you expressed how hurt you feel over what he's done to you?  Your own brother?  The loss of one who is expected to be loyal and care about you?  If not....maybe all of your pain is solidified into one mad feeling.

So it's easy to say.....he's just a jackass:

...nothing would please me more than never having to see or talk to this jackass again.

Maybe you're so angry that it is hard to feel anything else?  Or maybe you've dealt, little by little, with the losses and now...all that remains is the anger?  Maybe, you're on your way to recovery because the next stage of the grieving process is acceptance?  Or maybe it would feel really good to just let him have a piece of your mind and get it off your chest?

But because of the disease........it wouldn't compute, right?

Do you feel frustrated at all?

GFN[/quote]

[miaxo]

Hi Mudpuppy

I'm on board with you.  I had to giggle when I read a post here a few days ago...I believe Mum had written it.  Anyway, she injected some black humor about whenever she hears the sirens of an ambulance she holds out hope that Ex N is the one the sirens are racing towards.  I think that  as well.  When Ex N is late picking up the kids I start thinking, "Maybe he crashed and he's dead."  I know that sounds terrible and I pray God forgives me for it but the thoughts automatically race into my head.

I feel that his existence doesn't benefit anyone and he is a shell of a being who goes through the motions of life void of any feelings. I know my children would be better off with no contact with him.  The day the children are old enough and I no longer have to directly deal with him regarding visitation issues, etc. I will be doing the happy dance all over the place.

For now, I take responsibility for ever getting involved with him in the first place.  Hindsight is 20/20 and there were signs during our engagement of his true personality.  Heck, I even had his Mom and step Mom warn me about his temper fits/rages.  Being young and naive, I opted to close my eyes to it all.  Stupid me....now my kids are paying the price for my mistakes.  All I can do is pray that the Good Lord will give me the strength to help my children grow up to be productive and healthy members of society.

I could honestly say that if x N dropped dead today I would actually be relieved. I, like you,continue to pray that God will *heal* him.  When it comes to a N there is really nothing else I can do since he will never listen to the voice of reason.

Mia

[Anonymous]

To GFN,
Challenging post.
Frustration, yes. Anger, yes. Guilt, no.
Sure he has mental problems, but he knows right from wrong and  CHOOSES the wrong, knowing full well what it does to others. I feel zero guilt about my anger toward him.
I accepted that I don't actually have a brother a year and a half ago when I simultaneously saw how bad he can be and learned about NPD.
I expressed many times to him my feelings. It is pointless. All relationships are power struggles with him. Any talk of actual emotions is viewed by him as weakness and an opportunity for attack.
I am instructed by Christ to love my neighbor, especially my enemy. I am not called to like him, nor am I called to needlessly subject myself to abuse. The old saw about loving the sinner and hating the sin applies.
My frustration and anger stems from his continued attacks not any sense of loss. If he was out of my life I would be perfectly happy.
I guess that is what I have a hard time figuring out relative to others on this board. My suspicion is that for some reason I have taken his nuttiness much less to heart than others on this board do. To me it is a simple fairly cold blooded decision. There is one large problem in my life. This problem is implacable and unconcerned about my welfare. This problem must be excised from my life. When it is my life will be fine. I am taking steps to excise it. Thats that.
Now, would I like to fix him and have a brother? Sure. Can I, no. Is some of the damage he has done irreperable, yes. Do I accept that I can't do anything about it, yes.
Here is what I have learned from these posts. First, it is usually easier to seperate from a sibling than a parent or spouse. Second, the seperation process began years ago as my affection(what there was) for him died. Third, I have a wonderful normal family to take care of which makes it a lot easier to cut him off.
Thanks for everyone's perspectives.

Mudpuppy[/quote]

[Anonymous]

To Mia,
Thanks for that post. You have absolutely nailed it. I have often asked God, "if you aren't going to heal and or save him then get rid of him, he is only hurting others" That's probably not the most Christian attitude but I can't help feeling it sometimes.
I told GFN that I had no guilt about cutting him off or detesting his behavior. That is true, but like you I do have guilt over getting involved with him. I knew he was bizarre long before I knew what NPD was. If I had just kept my distance instead of trying to appease him and if I had just not believed his lies I would have saved my family a ton of money and a lot of grief.
Unlike you and others on this board I was not blinded by romantic love. I have much less excuse. You should not feel guilt over that. Romantic love is the most blinding substance on this earth and Ns know how to use it better than anyone else on earth. You were a fool for love. I was just a fool.

Mudpuppy

[Anonymous]

Hi Mudpuppy:

I envy your lack of guilt.  I feel guilty for feeling angry with people who are sick.  I'm not convinced that they "choose" their behaviour and so, again, I envy you that conviction (not some kind of green, jealous envy either, but more like an admiring, curious, plain confused envy...if there is a way to differentiate such a thing).

Yes...my post to you was challenging (and I felt a bit guilty after posting it too).  Always guilt.  It must be some great damage/learned response sustained from the past that causes me to feel it just because I voiced what I thought/some questions etc.  God help me!  I hope I didn't hurt Mudpuppy's feelings!  I hope he will realize that I am just throwing ideas around for him to consider?  That maybe.....some will hit home and make sence to him...and maybe help him sort out his own answers.  I hope he will not decide that I am assuming his feelings but rather that he will see that I am guessing/suggesting/wondering.  My guilty way of always, always, second guessing myself and requestioning what I do and trying to be sure that I have been kind.....because where I grew up was so....unkind.  I'm beginning to think that I have more to heal than I ever realized.

Off topic....sorry...anyway......

Any talk of actual emotions is viewed by him as weakness and an opportunity for attack.

Your description fits my experience.  There is no reaching him emotionally.
He will simply twist things around and cause you more upset.

I accepted that I don't actually have a brother a year and a half ago.

So did that hurt?  Did you experience a great loss at that time?  Were any of your hopes and dreams dashed?

I am instructed by Christ to love my neighbor, especially my enemy.

This is truly the biggest challenge given us, isn't it?  It's easy to love those who are nice to us and who we get along with.  It's so difficult to love the ones that cause us the most harm.  Love?  How do we love someone who is our enemy?  What does that really mean?

My frustration and anger stems from his continued attacks not any sense of loss.

I see what you mean.  The attacks occur over and over and anger and frustration build up and up.  I guess, for me, I feel a sense of loss each time such things happen, as well as the frustration and anger, and that's why I asked you about it.  I wondered if you might feel the loss but not really have thought about it that way.  If each time his attacks continue, you lose nothing, then I am surprised.

Because to me....each time someone I expect to love me attacks me.....I lose more and more trust in that person, I lose my hope of ever regaining that trust, and I lose my dream of what might have been.   But you say:

I have taken his nuttiness much less to heart than others on this board do.

Somehow, imo, you have put up a wall that did not allow him to hit you where it hurts.  Mad yes.  Hurt no.  That's the ticket.

To me it is a simple fairly cold blooded decision. There is one large problem in my life. This problem is implacable and unconcerned about my welfare. This problem must be excised from my life. When it is my life will be fine. I am taking steps to excise it. Thats that.

Maybe you are luckier than a lot of people and able to skip/block out/not allow/ignor/choose to excise the whole hurt part?  Maybe this too is enviable?

Now, would I like to fix him and have a brother? Sure.

And isn't not being able to do that, that not being possible, the total impossibility of that ever happening.....a loss?  Maybe so but for you....you are able to count it as a minimal loss/hardly worth worrying about/having little consequence?

Maybe....for others.....it's not that easy to count it as such?  For some people...such a loss might be immense and therefore...their hurt becomes more profuse...harder to block....requiring more healing?

I have a wonderful normal family to take care of which makes it a lot easier to cut him off.

I'm so glad to hear this Mudpuppy and I am really happy for you.  Some people may not have such blessings and may have a harder time with stuff because of it.  Still.....I get your point about making a choice.  So can you choose to excise the anger too?  Or must you wait until you never see him again?  Do you think it will evaporate at that time?

GFN

[Anonymous]

GFN,
Wow you are great. You cut right to the heart of things.
Unfortunately I'm pretty useless on a computer so i can't do all that quote stuff but here are my responses.
1. Guilt. They didn't choose their disorder any more than an alcoholic chose his predilection to addiction. But when they are faced with lying or telling the truth they make a concious choice. It would be much harder for them to tell the truth but its still a choice. I sometimes wonder though am I more hard hearted than others because I don't feel guilt. Maybe in a small way I envy your guilt because I think I should care more. I don't know.
2. When I said your post was challenging I meant it in a positive way. You make me defend what I say, so I have to be sure I am saying what is true and not what I wish were true. You didn't hurt Mudpuppie's feelings.
3. Did it hurt to realize I don't have a brother? Nah, I got so sick of dealing with the jerk I think inside I had given up on him already over the years.  I just hadn't admitted it to myself. When I found out what NPD is it just made me realize his condition is permanent and brought my feelings to the surface.
4. Love thine enemies. This is tough stuff. CS Lewis said that Christian love means hoping and praying for the best for someone. To me this makes it easier and I think is close to the mark. We are not called to like our enemies. And true love does not necessarily mean we even have affection for them at all. It means we do not wish them harm. It means if the opportunity to truly help someone who had caused us great harm presented itself we would. To me Christian love is not an emotion it is a decision. I think the old use of the word charity may have been more accurate. Love also also goes hand in hand with forgiveness, another tough one.
5. Sense of loss. You said each time someone you expect to love you attacks you lose hope and trust. I no longer expect or even hope that he loves me. I expect him to be a serpent and he never disappoints. Who cares if you lose your relationship with a black mamba? You are right in that I do feel a sense of loss for what I should have or what might have been. But I firmly believe if we waste our lives counting our curses and not our blessings it will be a very sad life indeed. The reality is he's gone and barring a miracle he's not coming back. I'm not going to let that spoil the good things in my life. I know others seem to have a much greater sense of loss. I think I am fortunate I don't. It would only hurt and fix nothing.
6.My family. Here is my only sizeable sense of guilt because I should have seen through him years ago and spared them the pain of this brotherly divorce. And believe me I know how fortunate I am compared to the people on this board who don't have the support I do.

Thank you for your thoughtful posts. They really mean a lot. I have posted a few responses on one or two of your threads without signing them. I hope they helped.
Mudpuppy

[Anonymous]

Mud:

I can relate to the post some one had on their father.  I had no affection for my father and shed no tears when he died.  The emotional abuse was such toward me and my mother that it was an actual relief to see  him go.

As far as your brother is concerned:  I think I have related that I also have two brothers currently involved in a business dispute.  They are both N's.  I think because so much "water has gone under the bridge" this past 25 years betweet them both, the erosion  of sibling love has been great and long vanished.  I think as someone has stated there are many levels of grief when a loved one dies.  In essence your brother has died.  Yes he is very much alive, but the death of the relationship is real and cannot be minimized.  Anger is part of the grief process and I think eventually sadness for you will come. I am truly sorry for the loss.  Family represents our connections and to have losses through death or otherwise is something that can never be taken back.  I just know that something happened between my two brothers at one time to change the sibling love they once shared and it has been tragic to watch.  Maybe the same thing applies to you:  At what point in time did you notice that things were changing?  This cannot be a recent occurance and the business deal gone sour is really the tip of the iceburg.  There were many antecedents.  

I am part of my brother's triad realtionship.  Because of their Nness, I cannot visit one without the other being miffed.  One has not spoken to me in 2 years because he wanted to tell me what was going on in the business, what he was going to do to the other brother, I would have none of  it.  He saw my  uninvolvement as "taking sides" hence no communication for 2 years.  Our family is fragemented as well.  My heart breaks for you.  There are many "if onlys".  The fact is until my brothers, your brother realizes their part in the dissolution of your relationship, nothing will change.  We can only change.  Much love Patz

[Anonymous]

Longtire,

You are amazing!  You have put it all so plainly clear.  To think that I've been loving my enemy(ies) all along, without knowing it!!   I've been hoping and praying  for them, a lot of the time.  The way you put it.....it's almost easy to love our enemies.  I mean....sometimes, it's not so easy to pray for our enemies, especially when we'd rather pray for those we love, but even so....praying for them isn't exactly back-breaking work, or extreme generosity.  It's not distasteful like hugging them, or giving them compliments, or even...as you say....liking them.  So if my abuser shows up at my door, and I have an opportunity to help....that would be my chance to love them...some more.   Oh-oh....I'm back to thinking of that as a challenge again.  A biggie.

"Hi Abuser(s).  Come on in....I want to help you because I now have this opportunity."

What comes after that?    I guess the chance of that happening is very slim, anyway, and I will have to work it out if it does occur.   It would be generous of me to pray for that to happen.

Your explanation is really a very good start, and I think it makes sence because it helps to avoid a whole lot of nasty thinking......which is tempting....but probably not real helpful.

Forgiving........I do that for me, if at all possible.   Selfish.  Forgive to help myself feel better.  Get rid of all that anger and resentment and let go of it.  I can't forgive until I do that.  So far....it's a slow process but once I do forgive, I feel a whole lot better.

 I sometimes wonder though am I more hard hearted than others because I don't feel guilt. Maybe in a small way I envy your guilt because I think I should care more.

Ya but your not caring is helping you get on with your life and my guilt is keeping me stuck, so what's to envy?  Your not caring or feeling guilt in regard to someone who has harmed you is more logical than my bothering to care about such people, and feel guilty for being angry isn't it?
I don't know either.

I think inside I had given up on him already over the years.

I bet at some point you did care but the erosion of your relationship was so gradual that you really just didn't notice that caring slip away, a little at a time.  Possibly??  Maybe this explains why you really don't feel a great sense of loss now?  You lost your brother, little by little, and were able to adjust to that very gradually, without any great, huge bout of pain?

The reality is he's gone and barring a miracle he's not coming back. I'm not going to let that spoil the good things in my life.

Great thinking!  Now I say to you......can I frame it???

I need to repeat this over and over to myself, a zillion times per day, until it sinks in.

Thankyou too for your posts to me.  I have read some of your other threads but I don't recall if I posted what I was thinking or not.   I appreciate your support  in other threads.

By the way.......click the left button on your mouse....drag it across the words you wish to quote......click the right button on your mouse....click copy......place the pointer in the reply box, where you want the quote to appear...right click your mouse and click paste......click the left button on your mouse again and highlight the text by going over it with your pointer again......go to the top of the reply box and click "Quote" and voila!!!

Hey Patz!

I just want to say that I love your posts and your attitude and the way you say it as you see it!  I'm sorry that your family is so disconnected because of the torment you and your siblings had to grow up with.  I can relate big time.

GFN