How do I help my children?

[Kim]

I am a 37 year old mother of four girls.  My two middle daughters, R - 16 & E - 14, are from a previous marriage.  I left my ex(N) many years ago without really knowing why I couldn't love him anymore...thought there was something really wrong with me.  I went into psychotherapy and my psychiatrist suggested that my ex fit the description of NPD.  It was a relief to know that it wasn't all my fault but I never really looked at it any closer than that.  With my ridiculously low self esteem and my catholic need for penance, my next relationship was with a violent alcoholic.  It took 5 years to completely escape that nightmare and cost me custody of my two daughters to my ex.  What I found so difficult to compete with was the fact that on the surface N presents a wonderful picture: upstanding, educated, professional, successful & stable.  Furthermore, N had no qualms about using "brainwashing" type tactics with the girls and I simply could not bring myself to do the same.  When I tried to convey to the Guardian Ad Lidum all the classic N behaviors he displays and my concerns for the girls if they were raised by their father, he looked at me like I was a crazy person.  End result, I lost custody, the girls moved to MA with their father and his new fiancee.  (Subsequently, I went back into therapy and used that experience as a catalyst for growth and positive change.  Today, I barely resemble the person who had those relationships.)

For years, he has treated me as if I am public enemy #1 and somebody that he needs to shelter the girls from; running ridiculous amounts of interference between them and me (using an egg timer to limit phone calls with me to 5 mins is just one example).  Belittling and badmouthing me to the girls, their teachers, their friends parents...anybody who would listen.  Over the years, I have consulted w/ attorneys about revisiting the custody issue but have always been told I had no grounds to do so.  Meanwhile, I have had limited contact with my daughters, have never been allowed the "joint" aspects of decision making etc, and have watched my children become more and more repressed.  As for myself, I have had to make a conscious decision to allow myself to play by his rules (and all that that entails) in order to be allowed any type of relationship with my kids.

Several years ago, I started to recognize that the behavior the girls where exhibiting was consistent with a "victim mentality".  I began in small ways to try to empower them, ie: obtaining and displaying a personal bill of rights from the local domestic violence agency; encouraging them to speak their needs and feelings to people other than me; encouraging them to utilize their school guidance councelor, etc.  

R hit the adolescent years and began to resist the outrageous control and inconsistencies and injustices.  N and his wife (whom I suspect is also NPD) found a therapist and brought her in to be "fixed".  This therapist was completely duped by surface appearances and allowed N & wife to dictate the parameters of therapy...specifically that R was never allowed any private sessions.  She was labelled a liar, rebellious and in general a problem child.  NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH!  Like their father, the girls are a perfect picture on the surface: talented and active in many extracurricular teams and events, straight A students, in many AP classes, generally overachieving perfectionists.

Thankfully, E was by now speaking to a guidance counselor regularly who informed the parents that she required private therapy as her issues were beyond the scope of a school counselor.  Where R has begun to turn her anger outward, E has turned it inward and engages in self mutilation by cutting.  By the grace of whatever powers may be, R's therapist was not available for new clients and someone else had to be found.  Enter MB who is a true Godsend.  She is the first person in years to look past the surface and see the truth.  She has been working furiously to help E find and use her VOICE.  

At this point in time, my girls have found enough support, inner fortitude and courage to be able to confront their father in MB's office and say that they want to come and live with me.  He, of course, is not listening.  The counselor suggested to me that I should have a lawyer ready when the girls confronted the father as she did not believe he would concede without a fight.  Mainly though, she felt it imperative that when the girls finally use their VOICE, they need to know that somebody is LISTENING, irregardless of the end result.

So far so good.  One problem however, is that although I thought I had faced all of my personal demons years ago...this situation has brought many of them back to haunt me again.  I have realized that I am terrified of going through this legal battle and facing the prospect of losing AGAIN.  It's not even the losing itself that I am afraid of...it's the powerlessness to help my children.  I have also realized that I am still intimidated by N and feel inferior to his "superiority".  I struggle with feelings and thoughts of, what the h--- do I think I am doing, I can't possibly beat him in this arena, etc.  These issues have sent me back into therapy.

This past Monday, my therapist told me that she had been married to an N and that it sounded like my ex was an N as well.  (She said that all this nonsense with the girls all these years has probably simply been to punish me for leaving him.)  This being the same thing I was told all those years ago, I decided to look a little closer.  For the past three days I have been searching the web about NPD and I am absolutely horrified by what I am finding.  First of all, there is NO DOUBT at all in my mind that my ex is NPD.  He has been diagnosed Bi-Polar and takes meds for that condition, but it is either a misdiagnosis or in addition to NPD.  

So many things are all clicking into place for me now and making sense for the first time.  But if anything, I am even more afraid now than I was before.  God only knows what lies he will tell or how far he will go to prevent me from getting the girls legally.  He has already stated to them that he will do everything in his power to prevent it.  Coming to understand that he is completely without empathy, even for his own children, makes those words sound very ominous indeed.  My biggest concern now, however, is for the girls themselves.

I really thought that when the kids confronted him, there would be h--- to pay for them at home.  I was so surprised when instead he reacted by loosening all the rules and controls.  For the first time EVER, he has started to communicate with me and not only keep me informed but solicit my input.  He and his wife have even started to attend a parenting class.  I was feeling kind of hopeful that even if I did not win custody, at least the girls home life and our "coparenting" situation will have changed for the better.  That would make it all worth while.  I really wondered how I could have been so wrong about his reaction and started to think that I had perhaps misjudged him.  

Now, after all I have read, I realize that this is all part of the facade.  He is scrambling to protect his supply.  I think it is a double duty thing with the girls because not only are they sources of NS for him but they are also integral pieces of his projected self image.  To lose them would be horribly devastating, and I'm afraid of how potentially dangerous that will make him throughout this process.  But I have really come to realize that the true damage will not come until after this has been decided in one fashion or another.  Heaven help those girls if I lose and he is given the opportunity to rage and punish them.  On the other hand, if I am understanding things correctly, if I win he is as likely to completely abandon them altogether...which would be emotionally devastating for the kids.  Ironically enough, E expressed those fears to me a few weeks ago.  That if she told her father that she "wants" to live with me, that he would never forgive her and would refuse to have a relationship with her.  I told her that wouldn't happen because he loves her and as a parent you do not divorce your children.  Now, I think she knows her father better than I do.

What in the world am I supposed to do to help these girls???  After all I have learned these last few days, I am overwhelmed with guilt at not having truly realized the level of dysfunction and abuse they have had to live with all these years.  I just found out last week that when R was 15, her father felt it warranted to administer a bare bottom over the knee spanking to her because he found mascara in her school bag.  I keep wondering what other horrors they have never told me about.

I'm open to any advice anybody has to give.  Where do I find help for Children of Narcissist who are not yet adults?  Thanks in advance for listening to my story and for any words of wisdom or points in the right direction you may have to offer my children and me.

[Nic]

Hi Kim and welcome to the board,
You have outlined and explained your predicament extremely well.  I commend you on your understanding and your clarity.
I read your story through twice, and I am perplexed as to what to answer.  I need to reflect more on your situation before I volunteer ( if I can, it sure seems outside my scope--primarily because I have no children of my own, and I'm not up on custody law) information.
I can feel your fear at this horrible situation, and I do want to validate you on that.  Having been in court with my own parents for almost a year now, ( see my posts by clicking on my name) I sure can relate to that horrible feeling of having "family" lying about me to as you say " whoever will listen".
Your children come first, as a parent that seems very clear to you and you are to be commended for keeping that promise to them.  Ns are crazy and out of control, it's about what they can get away with.  Your husband seems to be feeling as you say, that horrible fear Ns get when they are about to lose their source(s) of supply.  They become unpredictable, you've already seen that the rage you expected has turned into  him becoming Mr. Niceguy to the kids.  You certainly are correct in doubting his attitude, it is most likely an attempt to get away with something in the long run and covering up in the short-term.  It scares me to think he has so much to hide that he is setting the stage to make himself look good, laying down the foundation to make himself look beyond reproach.  In any case he is very close to being found out, and I'm sure this major life crisis will be his undoing.  The literature seems to confirm that.
I guess I can only say, for the sake of the children, play it cool, don't validate him in any lies or scenarios he could be involving you in.  If you haven't gotten along since your divorce it ain't gonna happen now.  It's your basic N manipulation.  Much like the fascist revisionists who hare denying and rewriting history, your husband seems to be doing the classic N thing..self-destructing as an expression of trying to control reality.  Someone exposed me to this concept the other day and I find it soooo true.  Ns self destruct over time, and they constantly try to rewrite history because they cannot take responsibility for anything.
Stick to the truth knowing that they never do and you could come out on top this time!
All the best,
Nic

[Kim]

Nic -

Can I just tell you how much I appreciate your reply!  A thousand thank yous!  For years I have not been able to put a name to his ridiculous behavior and anytime I try to tell anybody about it they think I simply have an axe to grind.  You have no idea how wonderful it feels to have somebody 1) hear me, 2) believe me & 3) validate my feelings and fears as justifiable.  Actually, I suppose you do have some idea about that.  I look forward to your further responses.  

Let me try to clarify what kind of help I was looking for with my girls.  I know the legal issues are going to be a mess, but I am confident that I have good representation and strong support from the counselor MB.  I hope the girls are strong enough to withstand the experience (I pray I am too).

What I am looking for is advice on how I can help them emotionally in their relationship with their father.  Especially if we lose and they are forced to remain with him and his wife.  I am free to hate the man, they still love him deeply; therefore he has the power to hurt them deeply.  I thought that I was helping them by empowering them in small ways these past few years, but my new therapist has pointed out to me that I may just be adding more pressure, because now mom is no longer a safe haven without expectations.  The former victim in me is SCREAMING that they need to have his behavior identified and named, they need to have it acknowledged AS ABUSE and be told that it is not OK.  I really believe that they need to know that they are not the defective people here, they are responding in perfectly normal ways to his crazy making behavior.  The mother in me doesn't want to add to their burden in any way.  Do they need me to validate for them as you did for me tonight or do they just need me to BE a safe haven, a place of calm that restores them temporarily (no matter how nice that sounds, I know it still equates to enabling).  

I figure the best people to help me understand how to help my girls cope with this are the people who survived N parents themselves.  Surely you know what has helped you maintain your sanity through all the N's insanity, what you wish had been available to you when you had no choice but to live with it, what you always thought would have helped.  Survival skills, I guess is what I'm looking for for my girls.

I have just read some of your posts.  God, what a horror show!  My heart goes out to you and every other person here for all you have had to endure!  Again, thanks for your words...they meant alot!

Kim

[Karin]

You have a very good understanding of your situation Kim and I just want to tell you to trust your instincts and do what you have to do to protect your children as much as you are able. I am so thankful that my 3 children (26, 24 & 19) are adults and not subject to any custody battles. They are aware of their Nfather tricks and are 'on guard' but I can see that he still affects them because he simply is their father. It's easier for me to turn my back on him. My instincts told me a long time ago to protect them from him. (I can look back now and see that that was in fact what I was doing). Keep an eye on the 'larger picture' and show your children your strength that you obviously have and they will come through OK. It will be hard and don't trust him for a second.
K.

[Nic]

Hi there,
You ask a very good question.  How, and what did i do, and what did I want as a child..A VOICE!  That's what I wanted Kim, and I had none.  You must read Dr. Grossman's essays and see how you can give your kids voice.
I suppose that, like me, your children's lives have been hi-jacked.  Sin number one for your sick ex husband.  Although he is not conscious of his Narcissism ( not many Ns are!) he did consciously take them and he manipulated himself into their hearts and minds.
You have forced me to look back over a childhood I would rather forget.  What did I do? Exactly what you said: I survived !  How did I survive? By doing exactly what my N mother and father expected of me..I acquiesced.  To acquiesce to an N is an accepted defense mechanism against their abuse. But a defense mechanism only an adult can understand without shame or guilt.  Neither I or your kids had the neurons and life experience necessary to properly and effectively fend off  N parents.  I have had to forgive myself for that..I wish your kids didn't have to go through that, I wish I could have been spared the N jungle and all the surviving I had to do but..that's how it happened.  I was a victim but I am no longer one.
If I had had a mother like you, who genuinely and sincerely gave a damn about me,  I would have gotten to where I am today, at least fifty percent faster.
I had to play the game to survive in my own family.  Being adopted was a challenge from the start.  I belonged to them, but was made to feel that security and stability were commodities..they could be manipulated and exchanged for chaos at any  moment.
I became hyper vigilant..controlling also, but not to get my way, rather to maintain what little peace and clarity I could come by within the N system and to give myself a semblance of self-esteem.  I did the same things my parents did, believed what they believed, tolerated what they tolerated..had a rage once in a while to make them feel good..Ns love to be coaxed, so I did a lot of coaxing..Whatever it took to maintain what little peace and sanity existed I did.  I mimicked my parents in their actions whilst clandestinely expecting different outcomes from those actions.  What brought them a sense of control bought me another month or so of peace without the rages and stupid punishments.  I was in fact very hypocritical, in order to survive.
I find it both tragic and amusing that today, since I have abandoned my parents, they feel as though they have found me out instead of the other way around.
I had to be calculating, much like a chess game..living with Ns necessitates a long term plan and much strategy.  They ( Nparents) literally suck the life out of you.  When you're down, it's their opportunity to step in and save you from your misery..Gosh they love it when you're down!  When you're UP they must step in and tone it down..because if you're that happy you mustn't let it go to your head.  They must constantly micro-manage your existence..and you must never as a child, let them know you're smarter.
They strip the child clean of his voice and they clear-cut every living dream that the child entertains.  They make it clear to the child that they are in control all the time, that you can't possibly be or become anybody or anything without them except that when you want to be something they would  like they find tons of reasons to pursuade you that you shouldn't .  N parents bait their children, time and time again..dangling all kinds of carrots ..it's not so much that as a child you can't run fast enough to catch the carrot..it's that the carrot keeps on disappearing...*teary*

And yet, children are "resilient"..Ns love to say that to others..they might have put you through the wringer but they boast to others that they fully expect you to come out of it..'cos you're THEIR child..*gagging*
It's one deception after another Kim..the lying, the cheating, the unkept promises, the manipulation, the hypocrisy..all of it.
NO CHILD, should have to live like that and Yet I and so many others did.
I absolutely don't want to sugar coat what it was like for me as a child.  There were " nice" moments but even then I knew they weren't going to last.
Children weren't put here to survive, they were put here to live, and to be loved.
I was sitting on the couch the other day and I was talking to God.  I told him ('cos I was reflecting on my life) God, I don't have any hate left in me! It's all spent..that's when feelings of hope returned and peace and joy.  So i've had to completely cut my parents off from my life..that's the way it is for me..and there is no going back.  I'm going to turn this horrible experience into an opportunity.  I'm going to give back what I didn't get..i'm not staying in the gutter of remorse and unhappiness anymore.  I'm moving on,'cos i've walked through.
You wanted to know some of my survival tactics during that period and I have shared some of them with you.
Many things will help you/me/everyone but only the truth will set you/me/everyone free.
That's the way I see it.  After 40 years of BS, it's time for some truth.
Do I Hate my parents? NO..buth they have become way too toxic to keep around.  How can I continue living with two Nuclear reactors in perpetual meltdown?  I can't  AND I won't.
Save your kids if you can, I thought I was worth saving as a child, there was just no one willing to " get involved", like the previous poster said: Trust your instincts..ask your kids what it is they need..give them a voice and then draw a line in the sand clearly demarcating what is acceptable and what is not. In my opinion, they will thank you for it one day..
Blessings, Nic [/i]

[rosencrantz]

I understand your feelings of horror and terror,  Kim.  It does that to us at the beginning.  It is so alien; it is such a shock.  But it will pass.

Just best take things step by step.  Everything has its own time.  

One thing you should be clear about.  Well, two really.

Tell the truth.  If your girls want to share their fears about the future, then talk them through it with honestly.  Yes, it is likely their father will want to punish them by not speaking to them - at least for a while.  Help them talk through the pros and cons of staying and leaving.

Forget the guilt.  You are not responsible because you did not know and could not know.  This is too difficult for anyone to understand until the moment of revelation comes through information and knowledge.  This just isn't something you can intuit!  

Also forget the guilt because you can't afford to be distracted from the task in hand - keeping yourself emotionally calm in order to handle what's ahead.

You fear what he might do if you lose.  I understand - but just know you did what you could and work from there.  Don't give up now!  But don't panic either.  

My story as a child of an nParent :

As a child, I believed that I could not have survived without my Nmother and - even more importantly - deep down I knew that she could not  survive without me.  What a responsiblity.  What would I have done if 'they' had taken me away.  Oh, the guilt that I had abandoned her...

But when the time came to carve out my independent life as a teenager and young adult, that was the time when I needed the knowledge to help me escape without guilt, to help me become my own person, intact.

As the years went on and I tried to understand myself, why I felt and lived the way I did, that was when I wanted and needed the knowledge and the support and the love of someone SANE who could tell me it was OK and help me find my way in the world.

If the bruises are psychological, then it will take a long time to come to the surface.  

So even if you do 'lose' now.  Your girls are closer all the time to adulthood and the moment when they really can decide for themselves to leave home, and become independent.  Be there.  Let them know you will always be there.  

Decide on a number of people who will also be there as conduits, as messengers who will hold changes of address and telephone numbers to enable you all to stay in contact so they can find you when they need to.

The hardest part will be handling all the feelings you had that are resurfacing.  All of Nina Brown's books are very good - Whose life is it anyway, Children of the Self-Absorbed and Loving the Self-Absorbed.  Try them - they'll show you and your children what's real and how to survive.

Yes, they need to be validated - but there's a difference between validating (ie agreeing with them, supporting what they say) and forcing on them a particular perception, a particular way of viewing their father and their situation.  

Even tho it's difficult to believe, nobody is all good or all bad and there is a hazard ahead!!  You are not all good and he is not all bad.  Both of you have your fair share of good and bad in different ways.

You and I may think (know!) how bad HIS bad is!!  But it doesn't mean he doesn't have his good points, too!

And the more you point out the bad points, the more they'll be free to notice his good points!!

How many times does a battered wife go back believing 'he' has changed?  They may have to do that, too.

But be there for them.

Keep in touch with the good therapists.

Life takes a long time (!) and a couple of years more may see you all in a much safer, happier, healthier  place if you can 'keep the faith' just a bit longer.