newcomer

[sleepyhead]

OK, here goes... close my eyes and take a big leap. I found this message board about a week ago, and has spent most of my time since reading it, waiting for the perfect time to post, and waiting for the inspiration to hit me with the perfect words. Well, I think we all know THAT isn't gonna happen!    So I just have to try my best anyway.

First of all, hi everyone! I feel like I know you, not only from reading your posts, but also from having so many similar experiences. Yes, I realised about a month ago when I came across the 'N'-word, that my mother is one. What a relief! I'm not sure many people outside this forum would understand me when I say: What a relief to find out that my mother never loved me! I have known this for a long time, but when you try to tell people they always say:"Of course she loves you in her own way, she is your mother!" Although they mean well this always makde me feel worse, guilty, like there must be something wrong with ME, and, of course, like I can't trust my instincts. Now I know that I was right all along.

I always knew that my mother was strange, that there was something not quite right about her, but as a kid, if that is all you know, you can't see things for how they really are. It was not until a couple of years ago, when I was thirty, that I finally realised that she wasn't just a pain in my derriere, but she was actually mentally ill. For a few years I thought she was borderline (and technically I was right, since NPD is not a separate diagnosis in Europe), but when I read the diagnostic criteria there were a few things that didn't match up; she is not suicidal and she doesn't engage in self-destructive behaviour. This led me to the NPD criteria, and it felt like I had hit the bullseye. What convinced me even further (not that I needed any further convincing at this point) was when I read how parents of N's often end up! Trouble finishing things they started? Who, me?

Anyway, I won't post my story today (don't know where to begin, or where to end), but I would like to know how anyone knows how to achieve the balance between speaking up for myself without panicking I am just like my mother and being so nice to everyone else that I end up despising myself?

P.S. Thanks GFN for the welcome the other day! I guess the reason it is so much easier to post out of annoyance than any other emotion, is because then I won't be surprised and hurt by a hostile response... D.S.

[Anonymous]

welcome and well done for your post Speaking up for yourself, or about yourself is okay, and it doesn't mean you're like your mother. Or like my mother for that matter!

It's tricky at first, not wanting to post too much, not wanting to seem like we're being egotistical (?) but it is okay to talk. Talk at your own pace and tell us as much or as little as you wish. It'll be fine, really. It's better out than in.

[sleepyhead]

Thanks Guest, it's good to hear it from someone else, just knowing it intellectually isn't enough somehow.

[Anonymous]

Welcome Sleepyhead:

Just let your story unfold a little at a time as you remember "significant" times of impact by your N mother.  We all are learners.  When you tell others about your experiences, until they have been "there" the frame of reference is difficult.  People here, as you have observed have many ptsd from N's.  I also find it hard to find the balance in telling about my own experiences and feeling as if I am falling into the "N" pattern of just talking about myself. However, just typing those experiences out and getting others points of view and experiences, is not only helpful but a great relief.  You are not alone.  Patz

[Anonymous]

sleepyhead,
Let me welcome you too.
My first post was about five times as long as yours and no one complained.
 On top of that, I'm kind of a wise guy and I still haven't had anyone give me a hostile response.

Anyway, I won't post my story today (don't know where to begin, or where to end),

When you feel comfy just spill it. What needs to be released will be. It doesn't have to have a beginning and it doesn't have an end yet.

but I would like to know how anyone knows how to achieve the balance between speaking up for myself without panicking I am just like my mother and being so nice to everyone else that I end up despising myself?

If I understand that sentence, you don't want to end up like your mom who pretends to be nice to everyone but inside despises herself and is N.
I believe you are overly nice for a different reason than your mother.
 Ns are overly nice to fool people into thinking they are really really normal, or they are trying to imitate other's behavior, or they want something from somebody.
You on the other hand sound like you may have developed some avoidant tendencies from your mother's mistreatment. You are overly nice because you don't want to be mistreated anymore. It sounds like you are trying to avoid hurting other's feelings because you are afraid of their disapproval. Is that right?
Your mother just cares about her feelings, you care too much about others feelings.
The only way I have overcome any avoidant tendencies is to just do something. Don't think about it, just do it. Read longtire's thread. He says he has avoidant tendencies. He also says he over analyzes instead of acting. Once you have taken an action you are forced to see it through, and when you do, you find that your panic was over nothing. It becomes easier to do the more you do it. I don't know if your panic would ever go away, but you can learn that you can live with it, and once you speak up for yourself, it will be allright. Just start out with baby steps. Speak up in easy spots when you know you can build your confidence.
Maybe someone with experience could give you some pointers on therapy.

mudpuppy

[sleepyhead]

Thank you, Patz and Mudpuppy!

Although you sort of get what I am saying Mudpuppy, I realize that I was a bit unclear and would like to explain:

I have two options as to how I behave

a) I speak up for myself, talk about myself, and become terrified that I'm behaving like my mother.

b) I don't speak up for myself, let everyone else have their way, and despise myself for being so insipid, and, of course, become really boring, since I have nothing to say, but at least I am not being my mother.

There must be a middle ground there somewhere, however, I've been looking for it for years and haven't found it yet.

Oh, and I do think I have avoidance issues, but sometimes they disappear! Strange!

[longtire]

Welcome sleepyhead.  I think I would win the longest first post contest!  But, no one ever complained or even suggested shorter postings to me.  For all that welcome and acceptance I will be eternally grateful.  On the other end, I think Bloopsy does a FANTASTIC job of posting in the moment without always having to (over)analyze every little detail the way I do.

Proceed at the pace that's right for you in the way that's right for you.  You are welcome to be yourself here.

[Anonymous]

Sleepy,

a) I speak up for myself, talk about myself, and become terrified that I'm behaving like my mother

I suspect that what you believe others would think is self absorption they would find normal self interest. Remember you are hyper sensitive to this because you don't want to be like her. We have to talk about ourselves and stand up for ourselves to get through life as an individual.

b) I don't speak up for myself, let everyone else have their way, and despise myself for being so insipid, and, of course, become really boring, since I have nothing to say, but at least I am not being my mother.

You cannot be your mother. You do not have her disorder, thank God. You cannot develop it at this point in your life.
You're already more than halfway to where you need to be, just by asking the right questions.
I , and I think just about everyone, will reach real maturity when I realize that I will never completely be the person I want to be. I will never strike that perfect balance. And the more I think about it and try to obtain it the farther it recedes. Thinking about being healthy becomes more important than just being healthy. Make sense?

Oh, and I do think I have avoidance issues, but sometimes they disappear! Strange!

Perhaps you're avoiding them. Sorry, another stinker.

mudpup

[Anonymous]

There must be a middle ground there somewhere, however, I've been looking for it for years and haven't found it yet.

Maybe you've just found it by posting. You sound "middle-groundish" to me.

bunny

[catlover]

Hi Sleepyhead,

I know EXACTLY what you mean about not wanting to be like your mother and then letting people walk all over you.  I have had that problem forever, and it's the main issue I'm working through in therapy.  Here are some ideas I've found helpful, and am trying to practice:

1)  Avoid "black and white", "all or nothing" thinking.  It's not the case that if you speak up for yourself you automatically become an N like her.  Here's a somewhat humorous example of how I've had to learn the "middle ground":  I wrote up this long list of things I resent about my husband.  Then I was torn between these opposite perspectives/courses of action:  I am a selfish b**ch who will never be satisfied with anything or anyone; he's not doing anything wrong-I should just stop complaining and learn to be happy.  OR He is a huge ba***rd and I'm a complete wimp for putting up with his crap and I need to leave him immediately.  My therapist asked me if there was anything else I might consider doing, and I honestly couldn't think of anything!!  Then she suggested, "how about if you stay and stand up for yourself?"  UGH!!  I said "that's too hard, maybe I'd just rather leave" and she said "you're going to have to face this issue regardless of who you're with."

2) Realize that OTHER people are also not necessarily like your mother.  In other words, they actually might NOT get angry or ignore, insult or abandon you if you speak up for yourself.

3) Realize that although you may be "mistaken" about something, you are not "mistaken" about your feelings.  In other words, if something is bothering you, you have every right to tell someone it's bothering you.  It doesn't mean they're wrong or they have to change, it just means you are having an honest dialog with them.  Also, it's OK to make mistakes (e.g., by standing up for yourself when perhaps it doesn't end up being totally warranted) - since you are not an N, you can admit to yourself that you're not perfect!

4) If you are willing to listen to, and truly consider, another person's point of view, (and admit that they have valid points if they do) then you are not being like your mother because Ns don't do that.

5) HOW you say something matters as much or more than WHAT you say.  Based on your post, it sounds like your experience was similar to mine in that your mother was not a good model for how to say things.  My mother behaved in an extremely grouchy way most of the time, and was highly confrontational whenever "issues" needed to be addressed.  I've read other posters describe their Ns as manipulative, which can be very different from grouchy.  But, both are similar in that they show a lack of respect for the other person, and an expectation that they will not "get their way" if they don't act really b**chy or manipulative.

Well, these are just some thoughts.  I'm interested in reading more about your story  

[Anonymous]

Hello Sleepyhead:

P.S. Thanks GFN for the welcome the other day!

You are quite welcome.  Glad to see you posting again!

As to the stuff about being afraid to speak up for oneself....I kind of teeder-todder back and forth between a few things...

1.  Trying to be understanding, when someone makes a derogatory comment (I think stuff like:  "Maybe they're just having a bad day and I could improve it by what I say next" and "Give him/her the benefit of the doubt"--which I might do...the first time, or "Gee...I wonder what who peed in his/her cornflakes", or even "Maybe they're right and I should consider this?", etc  

and

2.  Sometimes...I speak up for myself, without a problem, without feeling like I'm like those who put me down....BECAUSE.....I simply did not or do not-- accept a lot of what is being said.....BECAUSE....I was/am lucky enough --to think THEY were/are crazy/foolish/in error/being rude/nasty/ignorant etc. and so I worked/work at rejecting those nasty comments and manage/ed to speak bravely/assertively/factually/intelligently/politely but firmly/whatnot in response.

and

3.  There are certain people who just seem to paralyse me.   What they say seems so shocking to me that I literally don't know what to say.  These are the really, really...Nish??    They know exactly what to say to get me (and probably not just me) into freeze mode and they seem to very much enjoy it.  There has to be a skill one can apply to deal with such people.  I just haven't learned it yet.  But I'm trying my darndest to get better at it!!  When in doubt....I agree with them and they shut up.

What a confusing mix, isn't it?  It's hard to sound--not like a wooss (or a lamb and be walked over)--and yet--not like some person who is full of themself (like a wolf and be aggressive).  I don't believe I'm either.  I'm just human like everyone else.  Sometimes I let people's words get the best of me.  Sometimes I say things I might be better off keeping to myself.
I'm definately a grey/gray person (and I have some hairs to proove it!! ).

I like the many thoughts in this thread!  Looking forward to getting to know you Sleepyhead.

GFN

[sleepyhead]

Maybe you've just found it by posting. You sound "middle-groundish" to me.

Thanks, I really needed that!

Perhaps you're avoiding them.  Sorry, another stinker.

I loved it! Being able to laugh at all the weirdness is what kept me alive and sane for so long, please kepp the jokes coming, smaller relative of the waterdog! Seriously though, I thought about it and realise that they disappear when I'm around people I know well,or people I don't know at all and never have to see again I should have been able to figure that one out sooner!

Gwyn: thanks for the great tips! I think I need to make a point of reading that list at least once a day, to remind myself!

Thank you evryone for making me feel so welcome and for listening/reading my posts. I feel safer here by the second!
[/quote]

[Stormchild]

((sleepyhead))

feels funny advising someone who's been here longer than I have but what the heck, i mean well

you sound very balanced and aware to me. about the concern that you're wishywashy:

when we have to adapt to crushing Ns that we can't escape from sometimes we learn to appease and seek approval. this is not a criticism. it could explain why you feel pulled between 2 options.

Approval seeking does protect against Ns for a while, because it gives them their supply, but with most of the Ns I have known, being N is a progressive disease. Like an addiction. Gets worse. They want more. Nobody can give enough. And approval from an N is a very hollow thing...

i'm studying this out in myself now, so i might be projecting (ugh) and i apologize if so. but i definitely bounce between wanting to appease them and wanting to annihilate them too.

keep posting!

hugs

Stormchild

[sleepyhead]

((Stormchild))

feels funny advising someone who's been here longer than I have but what the heck, i mean well

Well, I've been here about five minutes longer than you   . But from the post on the thread you started, I would guess that you have been on this planet longer than me, so that would give you trumps in the experience department! I don't think anyone here would object to advice given by someone who joined later than them, we all have different experiences, and different ways of looking at things, and someone elses views can always be helpful. On the other hand... I know exactly what you mean... I feel really shy and useless when responding to one of the "experienced boarders" posts , but I brace myself and do it anyway, holding my breath for the reproach that doesn't seem to come (knock on wood ). Because I believe that this is what I need to do, what we all need to do...

Anyway, thank you for your advice. I know I seek approval, especially from N's, yuck, but on the other hand I've managed to leave the N's that I had "chosen" (not family), so I guess I must be doing more things right than I give myself credit for? (Knock on wood.) And thank you so much for saying that I sound balanced and aware , aaaw, shucks. The only response I can give to that is: Rght back at ya! Anyway, your first post shamed me into finally starting to post some of my own story, so I'd better do that now! (Writing here that I will sort of forces me to, I know how to trick myself into doing things I don't reaaly dare!) Take care of yourself and hopefully I will speak to you again soon!

That goes for all the rest of you as well, of course! Sorry that I don't respond to all your posts in person, I'm a bit shy and embarrassed, plus, I have to reply reaaly fast so as not to loose my courage, so I blurt something out and then realize that I forgot to thank some of all the wonderful people who've responded to my post! Plus I feel a little shy towards those, who have been here longer, and whose posts I've been reading for the past few weeks; the cool kids ! Oh, well, hopefully that will pass!

(((((Everyone)))))

Well, now I'm relly just stalling, got to go and write some of my story, hope to see you on my new thread!

[Anonymous]

...i  definitely bounce between wanting to appease them and wanting to annihilate them...

Too funny Stormchild!!  

... I have to reply reaaly fast so as not to loose my courage, so I blurt something out and then realize that I forgot to thank some of all the wonderful people who've responded to my post!

I have this picture of you, Sleepyhead, typing 160 wmp and whipping the curser over to "submit", like a bolt of lightening, and then breathing a sign of relief,  once you've clicked...until you suddenly relaized what you forgot......  .....

NO worries!!!  You can add something later and if you really forget.....the chances are very high that others here will understand and even......forgive you!!!( ).  I feel afraid to post too, more often than might be guessed, but what the heck.....I mean well (what a great way to put it..Stormchild!!!!  Thanks for teaching me that!!! ).

Going over to your new thread now, Sleepy.......to read.......but maybe not write anything......'cause sometimes I don't know what to say or how to say it.  Sometimes I try anyway...and I'm glad you're going to do that in your own thread!!  Good for you!!!  

I'm glad you're both here!!  

GFN