Are you afraid you show N traits?

[Screamer]

Hello to all!

I would like to pose a question to the group.  Are you ever afraid that you show N traits?  Do you worry about how often you use the word "I" or how much you talk about yourself?  Are you ever concerned that you are selfish?  

Lately it seems that I am obsessing about this.  I am very concerned that maybe I learned and exhibit N patterns as the child of an N.

Just wondering if anyone else has experienced this.  Does anyone do anything specific to make sure they are not being N-ish?

Screamer

[Brigid]

Screamer,
Yes, I can relate to this.  This whole topic is so new to me so I am trying to learn and understand all the various aspects of it.  I know that current H is N from my therapist, but strongly suspect first H was also, along with father (who has been dead for 5 years) from the reading I have done.  I do start seeing myself in some of the descriptions of N traits.  I knowthat I have empathy and I know that I do not lie, so I don't think I could be intensely N, but I think if you have been surrounded by it all your life you are bound to pick up some of the traits as a defense mechanism.  Those of you who have more knowledge and experience can probably respond to this more intelligently, but I do have worries about this.  Since beginning to learn more, I am more conscious of when I am talking about myself or seeking attention.  I guess the awareness is a good thing and can help to monitor that behavior.

My 2 Cents worth.

Brigid

[longtire]

Screamer, I also still worry about this despite that fact that I beat myself up, not other people.  It really helps me to go back and reread the DSM definition for NPD and compare myself to people I know are NPD.  Its no contest.  I'm not even close to pathological N.  Keep in mind that everyone has and needs healthy N to assert themselves.

I was called an "N" once by a flaming N for using "I" and talking about myself, but after I left the picture he pissed everyone else off too.  I was just the first target in his alienation-fest.  

The problem with pathological N's is NOT using the word "I."  If you started saying "you, you, you" and pointing fingers all the time I'd be a lot more worried.  The problem N's have is not realizing that there are other, separate individuals out there who are NOT merged with them.  I use the "I" word and talk about myself because I'm the only person I "know" and I have a responsibility to communicate my needs and wants so others don't have to guess.

[Anonymous]

The problem with pathological N's is NOT using the word "I." If you started saying "you, you, you" and pointing fingers all the time I'd be a lot more worried. The problem N's have is not realizing that there are other, separate individuals out there who are NOT merged with them. I use the "I" word and talk about myself because I'm the only person I "know" and I have a responsibility to communicate my needs and wants so others don't have to guess.

Perfect! Ought to be in a text book somewhere!

mudpuppy

[Anonymous]

I also worry that I have N traits. I often notice myself seeking attention. It has become embarrassing. I admit that I feel relieved that at least I am embarrased by it------ it is soooo embarrassing. I'm glad I noticed. Also, I say the word i a lot which has also become embarrassing. I think that understanding why you(I????) are doing something so that you can get your need or whatever it is met in a healthier and more wholesome way ( negative attention = bad!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! oh!!!!!!!)  would help out. I don't think we should punish ourselves for our N-ish behavior. THat will only make us more Nish!!! oooops!!!

[mum]

I think the fact that you are even concerned keeps you out of the N catagory.
We all talk about ourselves, and Longtire had a great description and explanation! I think he is dead on.

Also, one of the things that people in our lives (probably N's) tend to do to us, is attack where we are most vulnerable...get us where we live so to speak.  For me, it's calling me selfish (which I am not, to a fault).  Ironically, those are the people who are trying to keep me in a position where they can take advantage of me, or use me for something.  They know it's my soft side and that accusing me of that (used to)change my behavoir to thier liking.

I think a lot of that: "oh, god, am I selfish....I just talked to much.....I took up too much of their time, etc"..... really can be translated into: "I am not really worthy of having an opinion, oh, I don't really know that much, who do I think I am?, people don't really want to hear from me,  I am not worthy, bad me, poor me,"etc. etc.  This is all negative self talk, and in my life, it is the tape I recorded of the sounds of  various negative experiences/people in my life story.  MY life story.  So I'm currently re-recording it!!
   

[Anonymous]

The problem with pathological N's is NOT using the word "I." If you started saying "you, you, you" and pointing fingers all the time I'd be a lot more worried. The problem N's have is not realizing that there are other, separate individuals out there who are NOT merged with them. I use the "I" word and talk about myself because I'm the only person I "know" and I have a responsibility to communicate my needs and wants so others don't have to guess.


Perfect! Ought to be in a text book somewhere!

Oh Yes!!  I agree.  You've really said it like a pro, Longtire!  It's so important to work on self-esteem, especially if one has experienced abuse and nearly impossible to work on this....without...using the "I" word.  It's not a sin to use it.  It's a sin....to abuse it ( ).

GFN

[dogbit]

Longtire.....you have got it in a nutshell.  The worst that can be said about using the "I" word is that maybe you are self-absorbed which can be a very good thing when you are trying to figure out how you got into this mess of being involved with a narcissist.  When I was quite young and being the offspring of a narcissist and trying to figure out what was going on I used the "I" word quite a lot and someone pointed that out to me.  It was like a light bulb going off. Someone (the N) had me so confused that I was only focussing on myself and that was all I had to give.  I guess it was a cathartic moment for me or in the current popular jargon, an epiphany.  I still use that pronoun quite a lot but I also encourage others to use it also.  So I think now I have conversations with people and not manipulations or blame games.  Thanks for making this point.

[Anonymous]

Signs that you are not an N. You -

- say 'thank you' and mean it
- say 'please' and do not expect to have every need met by others
- acknowledge others' existence (e.g. apologising for taking their time)

and very tellingly
- know when you're responsible for harsh words, or ignoring someone who is hurt, and you take that responsibility for your actions. You can handle it because you can tolerate guilt and shame.

- say 'sorry' and mean it.

[Anonymous]

Screamer, I didn't answer your question in that last post!

Do you worry about how often you use the word "I" or how much you talk about yourself? Are you ever concerned that you are selfish?

Talking about yourself is not N-ish as Longtire has said so well.

Using the word I is helpful to kids of Ns. Use it more Screamer!

Being self-ish (yes?) is partly how we survive. Being selfish is okay if it is intended towards good things. E.g. I'm very selfish with my time around people who want to steal my time. I'm becoming selfish with my 'listening' sympathy towards people who have zero empathy. It's a waste of time.

If you think you're being selfish, ask yourself: who is dying because of my selfishness? Who am I hurting? Then compare yourself to a global corporation! If you're with someone who isn't an N, ask them - "do you think I'm being selfish?" - the results can surprise. What do you think Screamer?

[VUNIL]

I agree with all of these posts-- many of the narcissists I know rarely say "I"-- they spend most of their conversation putting other people down, complaining that others don't appreciate/worship them enough, and plotting against other people.  Some of the most malignant narcissists are impossible to read as people because they don't seem to have an "I."  You ask them for their opinion and the whole time they answer it's clear they picked their answer to manipulate you or to sound a certain way.  Tomorrow the answer could be totally different.   It's the weirdest feeling.  I've felt it often  My workplace has these types-  really icky.

I do think those of us with n parents (my hands are up for that one-- both of them!) learned really odd ways of dealing with people from them.  So we (or at least I) have to unlearn those habits. It's not hard for us in the way it would be for them to change because for us it's just ignorance leading to the behavior, not anything underlying and broken.  But it irritates me that they left that legacy, along with everything else.

[Anonymous]

Hello all:

Vunil:  It must be a real challenge (to say the least) working with these types at your work.   Hopefully, there are some non-N-ish types too.  I know what you mean though....been there....done that.  In the long run, I felt sorry for those people because when it comes down to it...the ones I worked with.....were clearly unhappy people and it seemed impossible for them to ever be happy.  Sad.

I think we all have N traits/behaviours and that's ok.  It's like you say......if change is needed....it can and will happen.  Most people aren't disordered by these traits/behaviours.  Most people don't abuse.  To me...that's the biggest sign of N....abusing....especially....without ever taking responsiblity for it or acknowledging it.

GFN

[Anonymous]

vunil:

I remember my SO continually putting other people down.  We would go to resturants and he would talk about that woman or that woman being a "lesbo" or a "bimbo".  I would ask how he knew this:  He would say "I can tell by looking."

All the things you stated brought back memories.  I remember we were passing by a house during Christmas one night.  The people had decorated the outside of their house with lights.  He started in on how "tacky" it looked and the kind of people in the house were probably a certain class of people and could not possibly be happy living like that.  I finally told him "what right do I or you have to question how people live especially if they are happy."  I was met with stone, cold slience.  He felt he "knew" what would make people happy and that the way people lived, thought etc. if it were different than his was not possibly "right" and it was "unbelieveable".  He was such a narc.  Patz

[catlover]

Actually I read some things yesterday which have me very worried about this.  I looked up "covert narcissist," which someone on this board had mentioned.  It's hard to explain how the descriptions of the covert narcissist were disturbing.  One of the things I kept reading was that Ns are created by early "narcisstic injury," which basically means being treated the way an N-parent treats one!!  The following quote sums up my childhood better than anything I've ever read:

"The individual whose environment supports his or her grandiosity, and demands that he or she be more than possible... Such an individual is told 'you are superior to others', but at the same time his or her
personal feelings are ignored."

The quote also said that this individual "will develop to be an exhibitionist narcissist...To restore his or her feelings of adequacy the growing individual will attempt to coerce the environment into supporting his or her grandiose claims of superiority and perfection."

This (and other readings) really made me think about how I relate to other people, which often seems to consist of trying to get them to like me or protect me or take care of me or make me happy or make me look good.  In other words, it is manipulative and it is concerned with THEM only insofar as they relate to ME.  I know I've learned this behavior from being raised by a narcissist:  In order to receive attention I had to manipulate the N by pretending to be exactly what they wanted me to be.  This carries over into hiding my true feelings/thoughts as an adult because I'm worried that to express them would cause someone to "not like me anymore" or whatever.  (Then, I think of myself as a victim and them as a monster because they're "taking advantage of me.")  This seems to be exactly the person Vunil wrote about in this thread :

Some of the most malignant narcissists are impossible to read as people because they don't seem to have an "I." You ask them for their opinion and the whole time they answer it's clear they picked their answer to manipulate you or to sound a certain way. Tomorrow the answer could be totally different.

I wonder whether I truly CARE about other people, or if I only care about them to the extent that they affect me.    I'm really scared about this!    

I hope another thing Vunil said is true (the part about us being able to change):

I do think those of us with n parents ... learned really odd ways of dealing with people from them. So we .. have to unlearn those habits. It's not hard for us in the way it would be for them to change because for us it's just ignorance leading to the behavior, not anything underlying and broken.

[/quote]

[sleepyhead]

Gwyn: Don't worry! As others have said, just the fact that you are worried about being an N, means you are not one! I think most people with N parents pick up some N traits along the way. To quote Counting Crows:"Ain't this position familiar darling, well all monkeys do what they see". (Not implying you are a monkey by the way ) Also, we all feel a need to be heard and to be liked, that is human nature.

You are aware that you might have a problem. Good! That is the first step to changing! I read somewhere, don't remember where, that when we start fretting that people like us, we should ask ourselves if we like them! this has helped me to kepp things in perspective.

Finally, go back to the newcomer thread and read the advice that you gave to me! Isn't it funny how it's always easier to help someone else than it is to help ourselves?