What do you think of this?

[mum]

Hi.  I sent my ex an email, at my attorney's suggestion, regarding a trial change in the visitation schedule.  Except for the usual crap, the response was not something I'm concerned with.
What I do find strange, is that the email was read while he was in the car picking up my children from their respective schools (corroborated by my kids).
So (and I have suspected this before) his wife is reading the emails.  He didn't discuss my proposal with the kids, as I asked him to while they were with him, so apparently, he hadn't read it until after he brought them home last night.  His email response also did not sound like him (too wordy).
I've consulted my attorney, waiting to hear back, but I am confused by this.  I've always thought it strange that his wife supports his ongoing fight to keep me here, but this is creepy.  What gives, do you think?
He's a big time N, I'm fairly certain they were in big marital trouble a while back....but this is weird.  Am I wasting time wondering about this, or should I call him on it?

[Brigid]

Mum,
I am dense or perhaps too new to follow your shorthand.  Do you think she is reading the emails?  You are surprised by this?

I've always thought it strange that his wife supports his ongoing fight to keep me here, but this is creepy. What gives, do you think?

What do you mean by "keep me here"?  Here physically or mentally?  I'm sorry if this should be evident, but I am truly confused.  Do you want to call him on his wife reading your e-mails or something else?

I don't want to respond until I understand the question.

Brigid

[Anonymous]

mum,

My vote is that it's irrelevant what she does unless it is germaine to the court proceedings.

bunny

[Anonymous]

Hi Mum:

Indeed this shows how the validity and legality of emails may be questioned in a court of law.

If it were me, I would not be sending emails period and I would ask my lawyer to request his lawyer to let him know that you will not be opening them/reading them or responding to them from now on.

(I did this, in a legal situation and simply said that I get busy and might not check my email for a coons age but I always check my snail mail).

Registered letters are the way to go and usually considered a valid and legal way to inform/communicate/give notice etc.

He can post them on his kitchen cork board, if he wants to....and his wife can type whatever response she likes but his signature.....can be verified.
He also has a better chance of detecting that she is opening his mail before he gets it (if she is dumb enough to try doing it).

I'm surprised your lawyer is allowing this email junk.

GFN

[mum]

Actually, my former attorney opened the door for emails to be considered evidence in the trial regarding my relocation because he was out of the country, there were so many emails....(Brigid, I lost my court case to relocate wtih my children last year, even though he is out of the country for many months at a time).

My current attorney suggested I do send this latest email because we need a "paper trail" on my attempting to work with his suggestions regarding visitation (pre going to court about it).  She is trying to avoid him showing me anything but reasonable when we get to that point.

The whole thing does stink.  I don't know who I am talking to on email. At least on the phone if he says something rude, I can hang up and it is not evidence.  I appreciate, GFN, your thoughts.  I will discuss this with my attorney.
Bunny, whether or not her opening and possibly responding to his emails is important to the court is exactly what I've asked my attorney to tell me. If not, perhaps I can start having my co-workers, brothers, dogs, etc, send my replies to his emails and/or never read them.
Actually, Bunny, I think I'll pay you to handle it!!

Brigid: good question: yes, calling him on not really parenting with me, but allowing a third party to do so.  Again, I can let this go, just strikes me as curious, psychologically speaking... and then again, it may not matter at all.

[mum]

Listen I need to apologize.......I can't even follow my own posts sometimes. It's all stream of consiousness and I write like I talk..too fast.
Please forgive.  I am trying to "shorten" my "story" because it's a little redundant and most likely, boring, so I miss saying important things.
Feeling insecure right now.  It will pass.

[Anonymous]

Hello mum,
Was your mouthpiece trying to save you some dough by making you communicate with the goon? Why leave yourself open to his harrassment from e-mails? If you can afford it I would force this stuff through the lawyers. If not, like GFN said, put it in a certified letter, return receipt requested. They can't deny they got it later on.
I would just assume she was reading your e-mails. You're 'projecting' your common decency onto others. There's that word again.
Hope you don't stress over your x bum. Well he's still a bum just not your's anymore.
I'm off to ship a bulldozer to the Amish the next couple of days, so I'll talk to everyone later.
By the way I thought the Amish drove horse drawn buggies, wore flat brimmed hats and went around sayng thee and thou all the time. This guy  has a cell phone and sounds more like Gomer Pyle than King Lear. I guess I'm thinking of the Quaker Oats guy. Is my perception wrong, after all he's buying a bulldozer, and I doubt if he's going to pull it with a pair of Clydesdales. Are they modernizing or were they never that way? Someone please enlighten this west coast guy.

mudpuppy

[mum]

Hey, mud.  My attorney doesn't want me to force this through the courts YET.  There is some strategy involved.   And yes, the money is an issue...but something will come up to help me, it always does (pollyanna of money, that's me.....in debt up to my eyeballs currently, though).
 You might recall her warning me about being accused of Parental Alienation Syndrome a while back.  This is a strategy to avoid that... and to give my kids a break from the every single weekend with him thing.  
I think it may even have been you who said, if I am actively supporting their relationship with him (which I do) then I shouldn't worry about it.
I'm glad I brought this up here.  It is getting me to think of this in an entirely new way.  Brewing those ideas right now.  Thanks for the input.

I must be clueless on the Amish lifestyle as well, but they still are around, so they must have some modern life amenities....cell phone???

[Blue Topaz]

Mum:

At first I too wondered why your lawyer just did not have a document representing the changes sent to his lawyer or to him (instead of through you direct), but I understand what you wrote about your lawyer wanting a paper trail to help establish proof of your co-operation with him.

But I have to say that I would definitely not bring the issue of his wife reading your emails sent to him, up with him.

It will just stir up the N pot big time, and if emails are going to be admissible in court, he may write you an email based on your comments (if you tell him by phone) that might make you look like you've been antagonistic with a petty issue (note: I don't think it is petty-I understand your frustration) in court.   Aside from making things worse.... it also won't change anything about her reading them.

I agree with what has been said already in that if it is not relevant to helping you in court, to leave it.   I'm by no means anywhere near a legal expert and could be off the mark, but it just seems that the fact that his wife reads your email wouldn't really be related in the sense in proving that he is not co-parenting with you.   He may or may not be co-operating with you whether she is reading your email or not.  And in "legal eyes' they might figure she is bound to be doing co-parenting with him to a degree as his new wife with the kids sometimes being in their custody anyway (that this is normal).

And also, the least amount of contact with toxic N's (where contact is necessary or zero is best) the better in my book.  

Wishing you good luck & take care....

BT

[Anonymous]

Hiya Mum:

Listen I need to apologize.......

For what?

I can't even follow my own posts sometimes. It's all stream of consiousness and I write like I talk..too fast.

They make complete sence to me.  I understand what you're posting.

Please forgive. I am trying to "shorten" my "story" because it's a little redundant and most likely, boring, so I miss saying important things.

Don't worry about it.  I'm not the least bit bored and you can always fill in stuff as needed.

Feeling insecure right now. It will pass.

((((((((((((((((((((((((((Mum)))))))))))))))))))))))

Yes it will.  That was a big hug.

Now.......I have a few questions for your lawyer.

1.  What happens if daddio says he never read those emails at all?

2.  And what if.....he says he never wrote those replies?

3.  Does being out of the country mean registered mail is a bad idea?
     If so, why?

4.  Aren't registered letters a more reliable, ligitimate paper trail?

5.  Can't you work with him in a way that shows him signing things back to you via registered mail and doesn't it make sence to make that paper trail less questionable/more legal/valid/etc by registering it?

6.  Don't you look just a reasonable by registered mail?

7.  Doesn't your lawyer consider the fact that you don't know who you're talking to by email, a major problem? If not, why not?  If you're not negotiating with the children's father, what the????? good is it????

Sorry Mum.  I hate to be a sticker but it seems to me that you may be accumulating a good stack of useless paper.  I'd rather see you have paper that is worth it's weight.

Anyhow, you don't have to play this way for much longer.  You can decide to instruct your lawyer to write something up re this....whenever you choose to.

Are things being solved?  If it's getting close......that might make it even more important to do the registered thing.

whether or not her opening and possibly responding to his emails is important to the court is exactly what I've asked my attorney to tell me

Well.......if you were the judge, do you think it would be important for the negotiations to go on between the actual parents of the children, or would that matter?  I'm no lawyer but it seems to me that it is extremely important and extremely important to prove, without question, who negotiated.  The only way to do that effectively is by registered mail.  The person has to sign for it.  The letters sent back and forth get signed.  It might cost a little by mail, but you don't actually have to have your lawyer write them up.  Negotiate as you would by email, but send it snail way.

Now here's underhanded me, the bad me, the evil me talking :
Can't your pc break down for awhile?

Sorry to keep harping on this Mum.   I just feel worried for you.
Maybe I'm silly?

GFN

[Anonymous]

By the way I thought the Amish drove horse drawn buggies, wore flat brimmed hats and went around sayng thee and thou all the time. This guy has a cell phone and sounds more like Gomer Pyle than King Lear. I guess I'm thinking of the Quaker Oats guy. Is my perception wrong, after all he's buying a bulldozer, and I doubt if he's going to pull it with a pair of Clydesdales. Are they modernizing or were they never that way? Someone please enlighten this west coast guy.

Hi Mudpuppy:

I'm no expert but as far as I know....there are two sectors (???) of Amish.  Some are as you describe and use no modern convenience and the other are modernizing.

There are more mennonites in my kneck of the woods and I've seen them with their buggies and black clothing.  I think they are not modernizing much yet these days.

PS:  Mum:

You might recall her warning me about being accused of Parental Alienation Syndrome a while back. This is a strategy to avoid that... and to give my kids a break from the every single weekend with him thing.

As hard as it might be, try not to make decisions based on this fear.  As a matter of fact, you could outline in a letter how important you think it is for the children to maintain a relationship with their father, and how you are really serious about negotiating something that will be satisfactory for all involved.......especially......for the children's comfort and welfare.

Sending you white light and another warm hug.

GFN

[Brigid]

Mum,

calling him on not really parenting with me, but allowing a third party to do so. Again, I can let this go, just strikes me as curious, psychologically speaking... and then again, it may not matter at all.

Based on some other things I have heard you say regarding his coming to you for parenting assistance, I would say this is par for the course.  Your xN sounds like mine from the standpoint of immaturity and the inability to make his own decisions.  Mine always looked to me for the decision-making, especially where the kids were concerned, and now that we are not together and he doesn't want any contact with me, he also has very little contact with his kids.  I could certainly see him leaning on some new relationship in the future to help him with that as he will never do it himself.  

You once asked whether you should just let him twist in the wind where the kids were concerned or continue to work to make him look good.  My humble opinion would be to let him dangle and let the kids come to their own conclusions.  I think they are old enough to fend for themselves from what I have read and if I were you, I would not any longer assist him with his parenting.  These N men can be like children and will continue to be dependent unless we cut the cord.  Obviously, they can just turn to the next woman who is willing to "mother" them, but I don't think its our job any longer.

My therapist and I talk about this as I occasionally feel guilty that I am not helping him to look like a decent father, but we have both agreed that I cannot do that any longer.   If he disappoints his children by his behavior (which of course he already has in spades) then he must take responsibility for that.  I know I am talking like he is a normally functioning adult rather than what he is, but his children must learn how to work with or around him in the event I died tomorrow.

I don't know if this even came close to answering your question, but it was what I "heard" you saying.

Brigid

[mum]

Thank you Brigid!  You not only gave me food for thought on this question, but you were kind enough to remember my other concerns and give me your wonderful perspective.  My fiance says the same thing.....tell him to figure it out.  Before, when he had to and I didn't fall for the "he needs my help for the kids' sake", he tried to get his current wife much more involved....now the kids hate her.  Oh well.
When my fiance and his ex wife first divorced, and he would call her for parenting help, she would say "be a parent, figure it out for yourself!"  And he did, but then again, he is a kind, decent, secure adult.  But you are right....who cares what my ex needs?  The kids need one good parent, and that is me, and always has been.  Thank you sooooo much.  Have a great day.

[Stormchild]

Hi!
***********
If this helps...

The Old Order Amish still live as much as possible the way they did when the denomination was founded... but they do use modern tools in their workplaces. So they have electricity in the barns, etc.

The Mennonites in my neck of the woods are very modern, use PCs and cell phones and the whole 9 yards. But there are also old-orderish Mennonites too, living much like the OO Amish. It's transitional where I am... grandma (who has a PC and a microwave) wears a little head cap and a simple dress, while granddaughter wears jeans, and they love one another to pieces and don't quarrel about these choices because the inside stuff, the love, is the same.
***********

Mum, I feel so for you. I'm so glad you have a fiance - someone good to love you. Your XN's wife sounds like a piece of work....! [You may substitute any other word of equal length that seems appropriate ]

I like the idea of your dogs emailing your X:

Arf woof woof GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR woof arf GRRRRRRRRR!  

[Anonymous]

Hi Mum

I scanned down the responses so forgive me if someone already mentioned this.  What about tape recording phone conversations?

In regards to co parenting my attorney advised me that if I could get my X N on the phone acting "juvenile" and nasty that a Judge would love to hear that b/c it would reinforce his inability to co parent.  I have yet to do it but I didn't know if it would work for you.  You would have to make sure that your conversations were very clear and not a whole bunch of mumbling that the Judge couldn't make sense of.

Good luck.

Mia