Sticking up for yourself vs lashing out

[Anonymous]

I was wondering about how to balance standing up for yourself with being  mean or hurting someone's feelings.  I think I have been a little (or a lot??) insensitive lately in my attempts to stand up fo myself and I sent a mean letter telling someone who had done something icky to me how horrible it was but I did it in an insensitive way and now I feel like maybe this is going to be a big thing to learn.  
Love Bloopsy

[October]

I was wondering about how to balance standing up for yourself with being  mean or hurting someone's feelings.  I think I have been a little (or a lot??) insensitive lately in my attempts to stand up fo myself and I sent a mean letter telling someone who had done something icky to me how horrible it was but I did it in an insensitive way and now I feel like maybe this is going to be a big thing to learn.  
Love Bloopsy

Remember that we are taught that it is selfish to say to someone, 'Excuse me, but you are standing on my foot and it really hurts!'  Chances are we would think that insensitive and mean.

Stand firm.  If you have been hurt, you have a right to say so.  And even if you did react in an insensitive way - which I doubt - you have a good reason for doing so.  Nobody should be allowed to hurt you and get away with it.  Whatever you do, don't apologise for being hurt, or for writing.

[write]

matters a lot to me: having been hurt so much and done a fe out-of-character things in retaliation.

For me what works is turning it around: if someone did this to me how would I feel?

ThAT's not to say it wouldn't hurt, but wOuld I understand? If it's incomprehensible and seems harsh or deliberately hurtful then I'd stay away from behaving that way if I can.

We all have enough complications without becoming mean ourselves!

[vunil]

I have a long way to go in learning this, too, but had a big break-through recently when I realized that in a choice of hurting someone else versus letting them hurt me repeatedly, I always used to pick the latter.  And when I thought about how to get them to stop, I always thought about how they would feel (and if they would still like me!) not about how much I would like it when they stopped.

That said, narcissism is contagious and it is very easy to respond in the same puffed-up grandiose way that they act.   I have found myself doing that. It felt terrible later, like they had still won (and they had).Or, I'll be very "rational" and cold in my reactions instead of just expressing how I feel (because I was taught that how I feel is irrelevant).  

This is a complicated issue. Thanks for bringing it up.

As I write this I think the answer depends on who we are talking to-- how N they are, if they are able to listen, how close we are to them,  and the context (work versus not work).

I'd love to hear from folks who do this well-- the tricks of the trade.

[Guest from afar]

Hi Bloopsie and others,

I find that if I spend a lot of time identifying and clarifying my personal boundaries when on my own, then at a future time I can easily detect when they are broken and so speak up. I don't feel badly as I know I have worked out reasonable boundaries (principles, really) when I have been on my own and had lots of time to think about it. Eg If someone meeting me for the first time asks about my personal life I will reply (smiling pleasantly) "Let's not go there" as I've already ascertained beforehand that this is crossing the line. As with so much of life, practice makes perfect.

I hope this helps.

S

[Anonymous]

When I'm offended / hurt / injured by someone here's my general protocol:

I. The part about them

- Is this their general behavior or uncharacteristic behavior brought on by stress? If it's the norm, I lower my expectations of them accordingly.

- Is this person a jerk, immature, unable to behave well? Maybe they are unable to control their own aggression and negativity. Doesn't excuse them but only explains it.

- Is this person doing a lot of projecting (i.e., imagining that I am like their abuser and reacting to me that way)?

- Is this person generally able to tolerate another person's POV, or are they totally closed to new information? Are they incredibly defensive, or do they have enough ego strength to tolerate another person's grievance against them?



II. The part about me

- I try to realistically assess how I feel. Am I enraged, or just angry? Am I embarrassed, or just appalled? Am I irritated or mildly annoyed? I assess how damaged I feel by the interaction. If I feel pretty damaged then I have more strategizing to do. Usually I get help from others.

- Is my emotional state coming more from this current person, or more from my issues of the past? Can I separate this person from the past?

- Do I need to maintain a positive connection with this person? I.e., is it a bad idea to respond in a way that would burn bridges? Is it a bad idea to paint myself into a corner? How to handle this particular person?

- Do I need other people's support and advice before responding?

- Did this person do a major projection on me? If so, I usually react very little. A projection comes with a hope for a strong reaction from the projectee. That can set off a big drama which is usually pointless and painful. If I don't react much to the projection or very carefully to it, they have to deal with the feelings themselves.

- Ponder most diplomatic and effective response. Is it to do nothing and blow it off? Or respond differently next time it happens and do nothing this time? Briefly inform the person I'm displeased with that interaction and wish they would not do XYZ in future? Get more help for myself in therapy so that I understand these people better and won't react to strongly to them? This is where it gets more complicated...

bunny

[mum]

Bloopsy, that is such a tough one.  Thanks for bringing it up.
Vunil,  I also struggle with this, all the time.
Am I being true to myself?  Am I reacting/retaliating or just protecting myself?  This is a core issue for me.
I think it is hard to know when your "reality" and truths about yourself have been altered/damaged by an N!!
It just demonstrates the power they have had in our lives.... or still have.

I haven't figured it out yet, but one thing I am trying is being patient.  
N's and contol freaks (are they one in the same?) want to control the time frame of things.  If we can be patient and WAIT a bit, not really trying to "figure it out", just "sit still" with  what we feel, let it go, pick it back up, get distracted by something else....feelit again...
then sometimes life steps in and either it's over, or we figure out what to do, and then we do something.  N's have fits over this, and want responses immediately.  This is one way they get control, they scare us into reacting out of fear.

And many times my reaction is not really me.  But I need to also be patient with myself.  I am not expert at life.  After so many years adjusting my own reality to fit the N's, I am only learning.  So I get to screw it up.  If it' with my exN, then I have learned it doesn't matter if I screwed up or got it right, he will hate me no matter what and twist and use whatever I did against me.

But if it's someone I do care about, I will apologize, maybe not RETRACT what I said, but perhaps change my tone.  Sometimes it IS someone I care about and after "sitting" with it, I decide I DON"T need to apologize or change my tone at all.  They can accept my standing my ground or not, I don't need to please everyone else.  I

I also, have learned that sometimes, altering my "tone" can really be a way of discounting my own opinion so the others like me...  Funny, those people I am trying to please are usually quite N.  My non N relationships don't even have me thinking this way at all.  

Wow, I think I just figured something out!  The people in my life who I don't worry about screwing up around, I don't usually HAVE to hold my ground with, they don't do things that make me feel I have to defend myself, either, so this is a non issue!

[mum]

Wow. how strange, I just hung up the phone and I am still shaking.
Talk about setting limits...sticking up for myself.
 
My very N friend just called to INSIST that I get dressed immediately to go to a yoga class with her that we had only discussed possibly going to the other day. (neither one of us knew what time it started then). When I say she INSISTED, I mean in the "N"est way possible.  The class was starting in 10 minutes, and is a good 10 minutes away and I am not dressed yet. (hey it's morning here).  
So I said "NO I don't want to go, it's to short notice, I am not ready and don't want to rush or enter the class late" (which she would do).  
She kept insisting and insisting, alternately yelling at me and trying to make me feel bad:
She: "c'mon, c'mon, hurry, just throw something on.  YOU said you would go!!!  You sound just like your daughter!"
me: "why, because I am disagreeing with you?"
she; "your'e all whiney, saying (mocking me) I don't WANT TO GO"
me:" well, you keep pushing me, and I said I DON'T WANT TO GO."
she:" I knew you'd say that! I knew you wouldn't just get up and be spontaneous and go!"
me: "well, then you were right!"
she:"man, I can't believe you."
me: "well, goodbye, have fun"

 I am still shaking.
In the span of 30 seconds she disrespected me and insulted my child.  I honestly do not know why I continue to be her friend. She does live right across the street. My daughter, by the way, is almost 13 and has no tolerance for her, will not accept her pushiness.  

But this is a  case in point, my non-N friends would never do what she just did.

[Anonymous]

Bloopsy,
You wrote,

I was wondering about how to balance standing up for yourself with being mean or hurting someone's feelings.

Being mean and hurting someone's feelings are two different things. We don't have to be mean, by calling people names or falsely accusing them of things. But if we tell them they have treated us horribly and we are angry about it and they should stop it and be ashamed of themselves, then its too bad if their feelings are hurt. The kind of people who do 'icky' things to others need to have their feelings hurt so they know what it feels like and so they might think twice before they do it again. If they don't want their feelings hurt they shouldn't treat others like dirt in the first place.
As long as you told this person the truth, you did nothing wrong.

mum wrote,

My daughter, by the way, is almost 13 and has no tolerance for her, will not accept her pushiness.

Why don't you just tell your 'friend' your daughter won't let you come out and play anymore.

mudpup

[phillip]

I was wondering about how to balance standing up for yourself with being  mean or hurting someone's feelings.  I think I have been a little (or a lot??) insensitive lately in my attempts to stand up fo myself and I sent a mean letter telling someone who had done something icky to me how horrible it was but I did it in an insensitive way and now I feel like maybe this is going to be a big thing to learn.  
Love Bloopsy

According to EST theory it is ok to be precisely who you are.  If being confrontational or "mean" works for you, go for it.  If it does not work for you, eventually you will adjust to the responses your demeanor creates.  But, the imperative stands, at all costs be true to who you are.  Anything short of that suggests manipulation.  

The example that I was given during seminar work was the following:  Let's imagine that every morning before you got dressed for the day, you went out into your front yard with a loaded pistol, and shot the first person that you see.  Well, this probably isn't going to work for you for very long.  The bottom line is this:  Do not judge yourself, your actions will always create an effect that you will either be able to live with or not, and you will adjust to create the optimum comfort for yourself.  It may seem a little cold or harsh, but you see the imperative always remains at all costs, be true to who you are.  One has little to contribute, if one is not manifested.  IMO

[Anonymous]

Phillip

Let's imagine that every morning before you got dressed for the day, you went out into your front yard with a loaded pistol, and shot the first person that you see. Well, this probably isn't going to work for you for very long. The bottom line is this: Do not judge yourself, your actions will always create an effect that you will either be able to live with or not, and you will adjust to create the optimum comfort for yourself.

I'm not sure I follow this. If I don't judge myself but wait for the effect to judge for me, isn't that why there are so many actual dead people on other people's front lawns.  
Isn't this utilitarianism in the extreme? If I get away with it it must be good, If somebody objects its wrong?
And how does this relate to dealing with Ns? When we do the right thing around them, is precisely when they make it the most uncomfortable for us.
Not trying to be offensive, just trying to understand your thoughts.

mudpup

[mum]

Mudpup: so relieved you asked Phillip to explain.  I felt stupid not "getting" the point, either.
Phillip: could you explain further?  My ex certainly is lucky I am a pacifist (it's real easy to get a gun in my state!!)

[bunny]

mum,

What a b****. Seriously. She is behaving like a total ass. You did a good job. My strategy [having had time to consider it] with this individual would be thus:

"Get your clothes on and come with me to a yoga class. Come on!"

"No."

"What do you mean, no? You need this exercise, Now get going, you have five minutes."

"I'm not going. I don't want to. Have a good time, I have to go now."

"You are really obnoxious, you know that? What kind of friend are you? etc."

"Don't talk to me that way, I don't like it. Bye now." *click*

My strategy is to be extremely firm and explain nothing. The encounter might also leave me shaking. It might lead me to to call others for comfort/validation. But she wouldn't know that. As far as she's concerned, I'm as hard as nails. And I probably would have to cut her off because she's too bossy.

Hang in there, you did the right thing.

bunny

[bunny]

I think what Phillip was saying was that the consequences of our actions teach us what not to do (pavlovian behavioral idea). That's my guess.

bunny

[vunil]

But the problem with the whole consequences idea is that for those of us raised by and/or married to N's it is much more complicated than just waiting for the consequences and behaving accordingly.  For one thing, in relationships with N's the consequences are completely odd and screwy.  They aren't really grounded in reality.  

Take for example, the obnoxious yoga friend.  Here is what would lead to a smooth consequence:

N: go to yoga even though you don't want to
M: ok!  
N:  good.  I am now happy with you.
M: awesome!

(later that day)

M:  I wonder why I'm in a bad mood?  I should be in a good mood.  I made my friend happy. Also, she's right that I should go to yoga. I'm lucky to have someone who knows what I should do.


Now, of course, in a rational world of extreme self-knowledge, the later that day part would be linked perfectly to what happened earlier. But, I think that two problems exist for those of us surviving N's: We have trouble recognizing consequences, and we have a really hard time figuring out what to do when we do recognize them.  And we aren't stupid to have as hard time with this. Where N's are concerned, itjust is really hard.

Keep in mind that the "what to do" is really topsy-turvy where N's are concerned.  Take it from someone (moi) who thought that "what to do" was to have an honest loving conversation about past abuse.  Or others who have tried therapy, which seems like the gold standard of good ideas.  Well, not always, not when an N person is involved.

This got long, sorry!