Nparents and depression

[nightsong]

Hello everyone,

For a few weeks now I've been lurking here and finding great comfort in many of your posts. You seem such an insightful and kind group of people. So I hope it's OK to make my first post about me (I'm not supposed to 'show off', I'm sure you'll understand).

I don't think there's a thread here about depression - if there is I apologise, it's 3.23 GMT and my brain may not be functioning at its best. I had about 4 hours sleep and yes, that's part of the depression.

Essentially I have come to realise that I have been depressed for most of my life, presumably as a defense against my N parents. The damage came very early for me I think, in that I was unwanted, the wrong sex (would have been tolerable if I'd been a boy), cold and hungry during my infancy because of her incompetence and indifference - my mother tells me these things with no awareness of the impact they may have on me. Subsequently the control was about her fragility. Adult standards of behaviour were expected of me from the start. Something I realised recently was that, while she proudly reports that I never had a tantrum, she had them all the time. Go figure, as the Americans say.

I've been reading some of the books - again, thanks to people here for posting titles that have been useful to them. Currently I am finding Victoria Secunda's book, 'When you and your mother don't get on', helpful in understanding what happened. I do at the moment feel absolute rage against both of them, but her in particular. This summer she came to stay and I actually criticised something she did, for the first time ever I think. (She has been criticising me, subtly but relentlessly, my whole life. My role is to smile and say nothing).

Well, she hasn't spoken to me since, and despite my guilt I am in no hurry to break the silence. But I do feel completely stuck.  I think the worst legacy of all this is my sense that there is no help for me - that the entire universe is indifferent. Despite a loving husband and a few good friends I feel alone with this. So now I am reaching out to strangers for help. Another paradox I suppose, except that I know you guys understand this stuff, since you have all been through something similar.

Any thoughts would be very much appreciated.

[Clueless]

Hey nightsong,

I know all about having to an be adult when you're just a kid and the effects that can have on you. We emigrated to a new country when I was 12, and when I was 14 my mum died. Without going into too many details (it's a LONG STORY) I became the "little woman" of the house 'cos my dad did nothing and my little brother was only 11. I know parents have to grieve too, but I had to clean, cook, take care of my schoolwork and try to make new friends in a whole new country, as well as trying to deal with the loss of my mum! The result: at 23 I was burned out, and I know all about the tiredness, the lack of motivation, the emptiness that you feel. It's horrible. All I can say is be good to yourself. If you don't want to talk to her, don't. Do things on your terms and don't be guilted into things - guilt is an extremely tiring emotional burden. One last thought: please don't give up on the universe! It may feel indifferent, but there are people right here for you!

[Tinkergirl]

hi nightsong, and welcome.

this is the best place to talk about you....and you will eventually be able to help others once you feel supported, too.  

clueless is right...don't speak to your mom if you don't want to.  take this time to really sort out your feelings, investigate your rage, allow yourself the time and attention to be who you want to be since you have never been allowed to.  once you allow yourself to heal a bit, find someone (therapist, perhaps) to help you sort through the most difficult aspects of your depression and come up with a plan...an actual plan that helps you see the light in your future.  

a loving husband and a few friends is so much more than so many others have...i know that is no consolation on your dark days, but making a concrete plan to help you feel better about yourself will help your well being and self esteem.  don't allow your mother to take away your adulthood.  she has already stolen your childhood.  go ahead and be selfish...it is your life and your time to shine.  take care.

[nightsong]

Thank you so much, clueless and Tinkergirl. I cried when I read your responses - it feels so good to have permission to be myself and put myself first for a change, but I'm so scared to actually do it. There is still that childhood fear that something catastrophic will happen to her, and it will be 'all my fault'... I think the idea of therapy is a good one. I did have some a while ago but I was too defended about my relationship with my parents to make much headway. Now I see the truth much more clearly, so maybe it's time to try again.

Is it common to develop depression as a response to all this? It seems to me to be related to 'learned helplessness', that sense that I can't win and nothing I do will ever change anything. There is also the loss of my idealised view of her I suppose, which I have clung to for so long. My father died three years ago and my main response was relief. Perhaps I haven't mourned his death yet. Ah well, plenty of issues for the therapy!

Thank you again for your kind responses. I like the idea that one day I may be able to provide some support for other people, as you are doing. That feels like a constructive hope for the future, and I can really do with some of those.

[Anonymous]

Hey nightsong,

It's terrible that you have to feel guilty about things that "might happen" in the future! Life should be about being together in the now - things can happen to anyone at any time... If you've read my first post you'll know that I think I'm an N myself so it might sound a bit rich coming from me, but my own experiences with depression and isolation have made me realise just how vital that really is - to really be with people. That's what makes life living.And it's up to her to realise that.

I like what you said about "learned helplessness" - there is a lot of that in the world and we could all benefit from learning to help ourselves. I know depression really feels that way, but it's not helplessness; it's a defense mecahnism against stress and pain. Going through a depression is hard enough without trying to find out if it's "real" or just all in your head - I should know.

Nobody likes losing ideals, but real people with real feelings must be better than cold ideals.Maybe this depression is a blessing in disguise, if it helped you find this site. And you're already helping people, cause it sure is nice to talk to you. Do whatever you need to do to make yourself feel good and positive, and love yourself cause other people need you, and don't run away from your depression or try to "downplay" it. It's happened for a reason, not because you're weak. Stay positive and lots of luck

[Clueless]

Hey nightsong,

That last reply was me - I wasn't logged on!

[I_am_mine]

Is it common to develop depression as a response to all this? It seems to me to be related to 'learned helplessness', that sense that I can't win and nothing I do will ever change anything. There is also the loss of my idealised view of her I suppose, which I have clung to for so long. My father died three years ago and my main response was relief. Perhaps I haven't mourned his death yet. Ah well, plenty of issues for the therapy!

I've been dealing with depression/anxiety for...well, started in my teens, and I'm now 48.  I've come to the conclusion that my Ndad played a big part in my depression, altho I also think I was born with a predisposition for depression/anxiety, as many of my relatives suffer from these conditions.

The constant put-downs, comparisons to the Nparent, stress of "walking on eggs" and never knowing the "right" thing to do to please them, being taught that WE are the defective ones, especially in childhood when we haven't had the life experience to develop any psychological "armor" to defend ourselves....yeah, sounds like a recipe for depression to me!

There's a way out, tho, and it sounds like you're starting to find it.  Finding "reality", even tho it's a slap in the face sometimes, gives us the tools to deal with the Nperson(people) in our lives.  Finding the reality in/about  yourself provides a process with which you can free yourself of the "learned helplessness" syndrome.

You are not defined by your Nparents' definitions, their definitions are distorted, and more about them than about you.  If you can re-define yourself according to your own standards, morals, needs and wants, you won't have to live under their unrealistic opinions of you.

I'm still struggling constantly with the definition of my relationship to my Ndad - sooooooo toxic!  I take maybe 1 step forward, then 2 steps back, but sometimes manage 2 steps forward and hold my ground!

Good luck, sounds like your instincts will take you on the journey.  Try to learn to trust yourself, and you'll come out the other side as a whole person.

bobbie

[rosencrantz]

I am in no hurry to break the silence. But I do feel completely stuck. I think the worst legacy of all this is my sense that there is no help for me - that the entire universe is indifferent.

I know that feeling well.  I guess that means it's just yet another symptom of being the child of an Nparent.  As a child, it was too unbearable for me to believe that my mother was indifferent to me, so I believed that the world around me was indifferent to me.  In my early teens, I used to say 'Nobody loves me; nobody likes me'.  I didn't realise that it was my mother who demonstrated all the time that I didn't exist and didn't count - because I believed what she SAID rather than what she DID.

I even had evidence that other people took notice of me and cared and thought I was a nice person but I was totally unable to recognise it, appreciate it or respond to it.  

And now those feelings of being stuck, of being alone, that there is no help for me, still come up.  On a bad day, I feel sheer terror in response to those feelings.  And I haven't found any answers to this one - yet!!!

Except to note - those feelings ONLY come up when I'm trying to solve problems in my own head or heart that relate to my mother.   So I'm quite sure that it's the child in me who is in control at that instant and not the adult 'me'.  It must be a feeling that nobody is going to look out for us, look after us, have our interests at heart.  

Our parents, of course, trained us to know that noone ever will - their needs always came first.  Our parents met their own needs, not ours, and they required US to meet their needs (not ours), too!!  

But as adults, we have a choice.  We can choose NOT to put their needs first.  And that means that we can indeed make sure we are looked after - by choosing to put OUR needs and interests and well-being first.  And knowing that it's a good and right thing to do.  And never mind what anybody else thinks!!  AFter all, THEY don't feel guilty that THEY put THEIR needs first!!!  

Congratulations on taking your first steps to freedom!  
R

[katrina]

hey everyone, i am slighty confused here im doing some research for a psychology essay and i had this web address in the back of my book and well im very very confused. can anyone please help!!!????

[rosencrantz]

We're all confused Katrina Welcome to the club!

Maybe you need the library of articles on the website rather than the forum.  

Have fun with your essay!
R

[Anonymous]

Dear nightsong,

My question is, "how could one NOT be depressed" having spent a lifetime denying yourself?  Create a picture in your mind of yourself as a small child.  When you have that clear, imagine yourself going to your parent or parents time and again asking for someone to take care of your needs.  The response is always the same, NO.  The because part will change for each of us but the short answar is always the same.  For me it was "I don't have time for you right now", "stop making such a nusiance of yourself", "you're hopeless, stop bothering me", etc, etc.  After awhile, you KNOW that you're not important and begin repressing or denying your needs - a feeling of worthlesnes is established and the joy of experiencing your place in the world is either limited or gone.  You have never learned the process of taking care of yourself since it was NEVER taught.  Now ask yourself, how could you NOT be depressed.

The process of reestablishing myself as a worthy human being has been a long and rocky road.  I first had to acknowledge and accept that my mother had NO capacity to do any different than she did, which did not happen overnight.  That was so hard for me because, as you, I believed that if I just found the right key, I could help her realize that she really did love me.  It sounds so pathetic now but I spent a huge part of my adult life engaged in that Herculian task.

Then, the search for "who the heck am separate from this woman?"  I can honestly say that I did not have a clue about acknowleding my own need let along figuring out a way to believe that I deserved having what I wanted.  I was trained in self-denial and subordination - her first and if it should ever happen that there was anything left over, well maybe as long as it didn't piss her off!  As I become more aware of the people and things that nurture and please me I'm amazed by how difficult it still is to ask for what I need without huge fear that I'll be told the things that conditioned me as a child.

Can this be accomplished while still in relationship with the N parent?  I am trying.  My mother is 86 years old and I continue to distance myself from her emotionally and physically.  I still have to mentaly prepare myself for contact with her - make sure my defenses are never down and expect NOTHING from her.

Dr. Grossman writes about finding your voice and that is true on so many levels.  One way is to choose just ONE thing every day that brings you some joy, claim your right to it and enjoy the heck out of it.  You will actually begin to believe that you can have needs met without a big hammer falling on your head or being hit by a bus that you didn't even hear comming.

I wish you all the best and hope you'll stay connected as you grow stronger (and you will).

[Pat]

Still get this log in thing messed up -

That guest was me, Pat

[katrina]

thank you rozencranz!!!  
i just hope i get it finished.
gotta be in tomorrow and ive been so busy at work lately that i only started the buggar today.my fault really!!!
Cheers m8!!

[guest]

This is nightsong again- can't work out how to post as me, it says 'user name already taken'?

Thank you all so much for your thoughtful replies. It is wonderful to hear your experiences and understand the common thread for us all - we were simply not valued as children and now we have to value ourselves.

I was thinking about the narcissistic elements of actually being depressed - getting self absorbed, having no energy for other people's needs. Maybe even that is learnt from our N parents, or maybe it's a desperate attempt to finally get what we need - a break from having to care endlessly for someone who doesn't care for us.

Thanks again, you are lovely people.

[guest]

This is nightsong again- can't work out how to post as me, it says 'user name already taken'?

Thank you all so much for your thoughtful replies. It is wonderful to hear your experiences and understand the common thread for us all - we were simply not valued as children and now we have to value ourselves.

I was thinking about the narcissistic elements of actually being depressed - getting self absorbed, having no energy for other people's needs. Maybe even that is learnt from our N parents, or maybe it's a desperate attempt to finally get what we need - a break from having to care endlessly for someone who doesn't care for us.

Thanks again, you are lovely people.