Author Topic: STEALTH RADAR: Was that Nism I just experienced?  (Read 4954 times)

Acappella

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STEALTH RADAR: Was that Nism I just experienced?
« on: October 29, 2003, 04:12:18 PM »
Ive read Nism described as stealth abuse.

Well only if we don't see it coming......

The article (see link in next paragraph) seems to me an excellent tool for detecting some Nism tactics that took me too long to see as patterns.

http://www.ippnj.org/mcwilliams1.html

It is a long read so here is a summary/cliff note version:

(The article does not number basic traits, 1-5, as I have here but instead numbers the subcategories of the last two)

1) Reluctance to Choose (Ah, the elusive passive aspects of Nism)  

2) Criticism - (My note: Seems the criticism is often criticism for having emotions or needs and when about shortcomings the shortcomings are never about a lack thereof.  But of course the N tells of their own fears and value system via their criticism.)

3) Avoidance of Bragging.  (Paradoxical? Read on.)

4) The Inability to Apologize (At least 5 permutations are outlined and detailed.)

5)The inability to thank (4 variations on the theme here!)

This article was posted on http://groups.msn.com/Npartners    (site Alan passed along to me - thanks Alan) subject: "Terrific article"

rosencrantz

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STEALTH RADAR: Was that Nism I just experienced?
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2003, 11:14:11 AM »
This is an absolutely brilliant article.  Heavy going but worth the effort.  Thanks ECHO.

The authors point out that for healthy interaction, we all need to apologise and to express gratitude. Those of us with narcissitic tendencies will find these things difficult because they imply need (if we thank someone then a need must have been met) or imperfection (if we have to apologise for something).

My husband and I became aware a long time ago that I don't say 'sorry' enough and he doesn't say 'thank you' enough.  And the sorrys and thank yous are often flagged up as demands on the other person rather than truly reparative.

This article explains it all!!!

After I gave it to my husband to read, we actually had a laugh about it.  And I think it's been a VERY long time since we laughed.  We sat down and chatted about it some more - and LAUGHED some more!!  It's been a wonderful morning.  It was the first time one of these chats didn't end up in a mournful, frustrating standoff/stalemate.

It's a useful article for looking at the unhealthy narcissism in ourselves as well as those moments when the true narcissists in our lives leave us speechless and confused.  You'll be able to articulate the bruising much more easily after reading this - tho I suspect there's little point in articulating it to an out-and-out N because their need for grandiosity and perfection is too overwhelming.

It's a long article so get plenty of paper in your printer.  I had to print it out landscape not portrait.
"No matter how enmeshed a commander becomes in the elaboration of his own
thoughts, it is sometimes necessary to take the enemy into account" Sir Winston Churchill

guest

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Re: STEALTH RADAR: Was that Nism I just experienced?
« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2003, 11:31:10 PM »
It's nightsong here - I can't log in as me.

This was so helpful to me, well worth the effort of reading. I loved the emphasis on how Narcissism is exhibited through subtle, everyday behaviours, and all the examples given. It was so easy to relate this to the Ns in my life! I felt a rising tide of frustration as I imagined them saying these very things. I'm going to share this with my partner. Thanks Echo.

Simon46

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STEALTH RADAR: Was that Nism I just experienced?
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2003, 04:34:49 PM »
I also read the article and it was quite good. Thanks you Echo for posting this link.

seeker

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article
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2003, 01:32:38 PM »
Hello everybody,

This was a great article (oops, an evaluation there).  I have often pondered the lack of apologies and thank you's (and sincerity) in interaction with Ns.  I was even going to ask you all about some people's reaction to compliments.  This context did not appear in this article, but I want to see what you all think:

Have you ever sincerely complimented someone, or wanted to say something nice to make someone feel good, then get a response that is basically some version of "who are you to think you could evaluate me in any way, good or bad?"  "who are you to have an opinion?"  The best example I can think of right now is, after hearing a compliment, an N will reply "I'm glad that YOU think so..."  I think they truly believe a compliment is either a) a condescending put-down (as described in the article) and/or b) an evaluation.  We non-Ns are disqualified from providing any of this.  Another version of a twisted interaction is "Thank you," reply: "I'm just doing my job."  Can you just say "You're welcome"?

Regarding apologies:

One kindergarten teacher would go nuts over insincere apologies.  Instead of demanding apologies on behalf of the injured party, she would ask the perpetrator, "what can you do to make it better".   True, it is a form of "undoing" but it's better than "Sorry!"  (not!)  

I was also gratified to read about the "explanation" vs. apology.  This happens a lot on the playground.  One supervisor explained a little boy's problem to me after this boy knocked down my daughter.  My reaction was "that doesn't mean it didn't hurt!"  

Well, thanks  :D for listening!  cheers, S

rosencrantz

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STEALTH RADAR: Was that Nism I just experienced?
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2003, 07:20:07 PM »
Interesting and thought-provoking points you raise!

Re compliements : I suppose that we don't actually have a right to comment on other people - for good or ill - unless they have asked for our intervention.  We have made an assumption that they need our input if we do.  We've asked them to join an interaction in which we have the upper hand - that quickly becomes patronising. And it's not a 'clean' (ie without emotional strings) communication if we expect to get a particular transaction out of it (eg wanting to be thanked or appreciated for our intervention).

Life is very complicated!!

The purpose of the 'sorry' is reparation.  I guess the teacher is trying to show the child how to make an effective reparation rather than just 'by rote' using the word 'sorry' without any meaning.

Similarly, I suspect that 'explaining' is teacher-speak for 'we don't want children to feel guilty so we don't put blame on their shoulders'???  Did the Supervisor have a duty of reparation for the actions of the boy?  It gets more complicated when children are involved...but under normal circumstances, I'm not sure we believe we owe a duty of reparation for someone else's actions - or do we??
R
"No matter how enmeshed a commander becomes in the elaboration of his own
thoughts, it is sometimes necessary to take the enemy into account" Sir Winston Churchill

seeker

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STEALTH RADAR: Was that Nism I just experienced?
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2003, 01:55:45 PM »
Thanks Rosencranz,

Your reply on compliments, etc., was enlightening.  I'm trying to become more aware of how this type of exchange comes off.  :)

Just to clarify, I found the K teacher's approach very helpful in pointing out that apologies are meant to repair relationships, not let one off the hook to do it again.  That was a point made in the article as well.  So I just wanted to add a specific example.

In addition, the playground incident was an example of another outcome.  The supervisor indeed felt it was his place to enter the situation.  He did want to make my daughter feel better.  I credit him for that.  However, there was no follow through (though plenty of opportunity) to immediate point out to the other child what went wrong and how to address it.  Respect and appropriate conflict resolution is something that is emphasized a lot at our school.  Instead, the message was that since X "can't help it" it was okay.  The result, unfortunately, is that X doesn't learn to control himself.  Instead, X learns that he gets away with bad behavior and learns himself that he can't be expected to control himself.  
So it kinda pushed my button.

Are we not discussing in various ways, what is acceptable behavior and what is not?  Sometimes I think one message that comes out in our culture (U.S.) over and over again is, if you have a great excuse, if you have been a victim of something terribly awful, you have license to treat other people any way you want.  The world owes you, should make it up to you.  In other words, entitlement.  Caroline Myss courageously speaks out on this point in her book, Why Some People Don't Heal.  "I hurt you because I have been hurt."  And we end up apologizing to them!   :shock: Their wounds give them power.  And isn't this what we are all struggling with?  What victims are entitled to is compassion and understanding, yes, but not a blank check or exemption from socially accepted ways of treating each other.

When I read Viktor Frankl's Man' Search for Meaning, a point that jumped out at me was when he and others were finally released from a concentration camp, one former prisoner started destroying some crops in the field they were walking through.  Frankl stopped him, saying something to the effect, just because we were abused doesn't give us the right to start abusing or destroying.  Two wrongs do not make it right.  It's very interesting reading and I highly recommend it to all.  Sometimes it takes a lot of courage not to hit back.  (Atticus Finch in To Kill a Mockingbird comes to mind.)

Well, gotta get off my soapbox.  Thanks again, S.

Anonymous

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STEALTH RADAR: Was that Nism I just experienced?
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2003, 07:17:24 PM »
Yup life is complex and ignorance is bliss only until I know better.

You're welcome for the post.  I am inspired to contribute and have gained so much from your contributions as well.  

About apologies:

I've been mulling this stuff over too - learn as we go....the play ground example reminded me of some things I too began to notice after reading the article.  The "playground" that started me thinking though has only two children and little supervision most of the time - I live there.   :oops:

TRUTH:
I feel that the explanation of intent is good for building empathy & for "victims" to learn to not take the actions of others too personally.  (as you noted Seeker the victim role can become just as imploded as that of the perpetrator, perhaps that is the direct route to becoming a perpetrator?) AND intent is all about the perpetrator if it isn't balanced with consequence - it is unilateral empathy, which is half-arsed.

& CONSEQUENCES:
I agree that undoing is good & what I have noticed lately is the distinction between what is being "undone" - subtle difference, dramatic impact:
1) undoing negative attention by a quick and false apology.  Escapism supreme.
      2) undoing being caught (denial/lies etc.)
      3) undoing the loss of NS supply. (the woops I lost what I liked/needed got to regain supply, get back in favor)
      4) NOT doing anything but:
     
    A) FIRST feeling (ah that is the stumbling block for many of us & a chronic one for the N) the damage done to the other person. Generally, if I've hurt someone then there is some understanding I don't have - even if it is only that I don't understand their misunderstanding what I did. [/list:u]  
         
      B)THEN working to right the wrong even if it means not necessarily getting back in favor or any sort of external goal for righting the wrong but instead an internal sense of integrity with the world, the relationship, social ecology. [/list:u]

      Any of this ring true?

      P.S. I love all of these names (Seeker, Rosencrantz, Nightsong...it is like the Native American names or perhaps all names used to be - meaningful descriptions.  I hope to graduate soon from Echo.)

Anonymous

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STEALTH RADAR: Was that Nism I just experienced?
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2003, 08:07:12 PM »
Well i was guest and didn't realize it again.

I also meant to say that seems to me the number four version of apology is the best and most intensive in effort and impact.

ECHO