is it at all possible to get them to introspect?

[vunil]

Hi, all--

I am pulled so strongly this beautiful spring morning toward something that I just can't help but post.  I hope to get some clarity from you wise folks.

My parents are very N but do not have NPD.  They aren't sociopathically awful like some of people I have heard about here.  But they aren't a walk in the park, either.

It's super-clear where they got their weirdness from;  just looking at what both of their parents were like, and the trauma in their early lives, pretty much gets you where you need to be to start understanding why they were terrible parents to me.  It isn't rocket science.

So, please don't think I am hopelessly naive, but WHY can't they get to a place where they introspect and realize some stuff about themselves?  My mom likes to watch Dr. Phil and analyze people that she knows, especially if she gets to "realize" negative things about them, and it doesn't seem like that much of a jump to analyzing herself.  A couple of times she has even said some things that sound like she is trying to figure herself out... (!).  My dad used to be a counselor (although he did stop because he "got tired of all of the whining")

I am just dying to get them into therapy--to get them to want to go on their own accord.  I can't get myself to stop wanting this.  I know that the extreme N person can't ever go, but they are more of a combination of N and regular.  The problem is, when they are threatened, the N dominates with a big old vengeance.

So, is there any hope?  At all?  And if not how do I get so I stop wanting it?  I really really want it-- not just for me, but for them.  I see sparks of something good in them, when they are not jabbing at me with their little verbal knives.  And if they could release their guilt about my upbringing I think that they could be a lot more relaxed around me.

THANKS.  You guys are very helpful.   Just typing to the group helps me.

[Joey]

Vunil,

So, please don't think I am hopelessly naive, but WHY can't they get to a place where they introspect and realize some stuff about themselves?

I've asked myself this question for years and have "cried myself to sleep" hoping for they would realize that others had needs.  There are miracles, but it is highly unlikely that you will get a N to reflect.  It hurts them too much. Remember, these people are very wounded creatures and their main goal in life is to get their needs from others - like parasites.  

I have often wondered, myself, if they can "see" the negative in others because they really do know the faults within themselves or if it is just easier to place these personality deficits on others to protect themselves - "I'm fine, they have the problems" way of thinking.  

Please, please take care of yourself.  They are certainly taking care of themselves.  God Bless You - Joey

[bunny]

Hi vunil,

There is something called "capacity for mentalizing" (in those articles by Peter Fonagy). Your parents don't have it.

Of course you can keep bugging them to go to therapy. Who knows? I never bugged my parents about it although I hoped for years that they'd see how it improved ME. But I was the identified patient so I was going "for them." Bottom line they have no intention of going in this lifetime and I've switched my wish for my SISTER to go to therapy. Now I have to give up on THAT wish cause she ain't going.  

bunny

[promqueencasualty]

....WHY can't they get to a place where they introspect and realize some stuff about themselves?  My mom likes to watch Dr. Phil and analyze people that she knows, especially if she gets to "realize" negative things about them...


Vunil, it truly does sound like we have the same mother. You have no idea how many times my brother and I have asked ourselves the EXACT same question, using the EXACT same word("introspection").

I think that N's are so firmly entrenched in their screwy thought processes that, as others have stated in this thread, it is too foreign(therefore, too scary---my Nmother loathes "change") an idea for them to focus their microscopes on to their own conduct. The other posters are right----such an in-depth self-analysis would probably prove to be too uncomfortable for them to bear(and my Nmother's comfort level always takes precedent), even though the initial "pain" would ultimately(hopefully) give way to a healthier way of being and loving.

I'm going to give this more thought, and I'll post more later. In the meantime, rejoice in the loving relationships you DO have, and know that we support you, too!!! : )

[mum]

Vunil: I think you have summed it up when you ask how you can STOP WANTING.  It has helped me enormously to make this "stop wanting" to happen for myself.  As soon as I made the shift to letting go of that which I don't (and very possibly won't ever) have, rather than endlessly wanting it.......things changed.  Not for my ex (who I don't believe has the capacitiy for introspection, or much else for that matter) but things changed for me.  I am happier. The world is a friendlier place for me.  I'm not in the mud with this N's issues, wishing and wanting him to be a better person, different father to our children, etc.  I am somewhere much healthier.
If he EVER figures it out, or if he NEVER figures it out, that is his choice, his life path.  My job is to get my own life on track and happy, for myself and my children. I can't do that if I am mired in his issues, wanting him to "see" them.  
Hope that helped in some way.

[2cents]

Hey Vunil,

Maybe it's difficult for them to be introspective because so many of their emotional responses have to do with projection? From what I understand N's can't "own" their emotional responses very well.

They are aware of others' emotions because they have to be in order to survive, and perhaps at one time (as children) they had to be ULTRA aware of others' feelings in order to cater to them/ protect themselves.

As for therapy maybe they don't believe it will help? The "if it ain't broke don't fix it" mentality? Of course it IS broke, but their defences are there to shield them from the damage... ye olde vicious cycle.

I really hope things can change for them, but in the meantime take good care of yourself,

2cents

[October]

Hi, all--

So, please don't think I am hopelessly naive, but WHY can't they get to a place where they introspect and realize some stuff about themselves?  

If you look back on the learning process that you have had to find out what you know today, is it any wonder that other people are reluctant to start the journey?  A journey of a thousand miles is best postponed, while we watch the telly instead.

None of us here chose to take this route, I think.  We all got forced into it one way or another, and we have all learned a huge amount about ourselves and others in the process, but it is a very lonely, very difficult struggle, and to be honest I wouldn't wish it on anyone, in spite of the blessings.  

However, I can see that you love your parents, and they are important to you.  If you are able to, perhaps you could consider whether you are the closest thing your parents are ever going to get to a therapist.  I do not suggest you try any kind of therapy with them, but perhaps you could encourage them to talk about themselves; perhaps to tell you stories about what it was like for them to grow up in the way they did.  If they can write, perhaps they could write them down.  If not, they could tape record the stories.  If they have grandchildren, you could say it is for them.

If they are ever going to learn introspection it has to come from the inside, but perhaps this could plant a seed or two.  I would do this with my dad if my Nmum were not still around, because there is hope of a kind for  him.  But it is not worth the effort with mum.  She would talk, but she would not reflect.  She would only follow her life script and ascribe blame to each person she encounters in turn.  Waste of my time to listen to that.

[Anonymous]

Hi vunil,
This is probably just a technical point but I think these people are very introspective, way TOO introspective. I think they spend countless hours wondering what is wrong with them, why they're so weird and different. I just don't think they process it very well, and I don't think they can do much about what they do know is wrong.
The persona they present to the world will never acknowledge this self knowledge, but I think they have it. Why else would they be so terrified when their facade is threatened with exposure? If they had no self knowledge the threat wouldn't even register with them.

mudpup

[Kaz]

Hi Mudpup,
If they don't process it very well then it's not really introspection is it? I think they think about things, but only to the point of where they're comfortable with absolving themselves from any responsibility for anything. Real introspection usually ends up with some sort of personal growth.

If they had no self knowledge the threat wouldn't even register with them.

It's an interesting conundrum though. Maybe they have an awareness that they are not who they portray themselves to be, but nothing more than that.
The depth of introspection isn't there.

[delphine]

Hi Vunil and everyone,

I've watched my Nmom attempt "introspection" all my life. My NXH IS a therapist (and a good one... why I never put a lot of eggs in the therapy basket.) My Ns can have insight into their mechanisms in a self absorbed way. They can learn, in a rote manner, what behavour or response makes them appear less Nish. (This helps them get admiration, so it is useful). They can connect the dots of what happened in childhood, what motivates them now. But they can't CHANGE, except superficially, for 2 reasons:

1) they lack empathy, and that cannot change. Without the feedback loop of empathy and emotional connection, Ns don't get the rewards we do for behaving with kindness, integrity, truthfulness. When my Nmom lies on a bed watching tv with her grandaughter and daughter, she does not experience the warm, vibrant cocoon that we do. However, she wants someone to Quick! Get a camera! Take a picture of us all together! ....So she can show her friends that she has a family- that her photo would match or better the ones they show or discuss.

2) Ns feel a compulsion to get admiration, adulation, and attention the way a junkie needs a fix, and this addiction, this compulsion, is so strong that it overrides any other possibilities. So, they can "introspect" and alter  their behavour only if and when it brings them more of their drug (attention).

My mom loves therapy- a place where her monologue about her favorite topic (herself) is actually invited. My NHX loves being a therapist because the power others place in him, the extreme admiration of others paying him to merely be in his pressence ALL feed his Ncism. But neither can tolerate a church or encounter group experience where people get really personal, intimate. They can go to churches that suit their social agenda, or go to seminars that are desiged to create "feel-good" and success- motivated atmospheres.

Vunil, you said

It's super-clear where they got their weirdness from; just looking at what both of their parents were like, and the trauma in their early lives, pretty much gets you where you need to be to start understanding why they were terrible parents to me. It isn't rocket science.

And my Nmom and NXH  CAN see that, but they cannot HEAL from it.

My heart goes out to you in your pain, I totally understand this desire to have N relatives resolve even a fraction of their personal dillema. It hurts to have parents like this.

Delphine

[vunil]

Why else would they be so terrified when their facade is threatened with exposure?

Such a great question!  It is the thing that "gets" me-- that keeps me hoping.  I figure they know they sometimes feel shameful and threatened and sometimes don't, and they are intelligent so why not wonder about why sometimes one feeling and sometimes another?

I think that the actual feeling bad is caused by shame at being potentially discovered, as you say.  But the way they experience their life is something like:  Feeling great!  Best thing ever!  Top and superior!  Uh oh... Feeling mad!  Attack person who is at fault!  Feeling great again!  Best thing ever!  Person who is at fault is EVIL!  Attack them a little more!  Feel even better!  Take some of their stuff and throw it out the window!  I showed them!  Feeling super-great!  


In their mind "at fault" means anything not bolstering their little house of cards.  And sometimes it just seems to mean "person who is in vacinity when starting to feel insecure."  Attacking and exerting superiority seems to correct that feeling pretty well, so why not keep doing it?  I can tell when my mom is going to be the stingray from hell on the phone pretty quickly, in the first few minutes, just by if she sounds insecure about something.  It means she will be insulting every thing I do and do not say for the duration of the call.

It's insidious.  

And OBVIOUS.  That part gets me, too, keeps me hoping.  You just want to call them up and yell "SEE????"  The dots are so easy to connect.

[Greta]

Like bunny I've shifted my hopes for therapy to my sister--though when I first started therapy she said that she'd thought about it, but didn't believe she could find a therapist *at her level*.  My group therapist is fond of saying it's ok to want things--it's a sign of our compassion and caring that we want our nparents to get help, and heal--it's the sense of having to make the wants become reality that causes the angst.  I still don't trust my wants--it seems too dangerous to want things I'll never get.  But sometimes if I just let them be, the intensity of it lessens.  My nmother is a therapist--she got exactly enough therapy to build a protective shell, and didn't go any further.  My nfather believes we live in an "overcounseled" world.  He wrote a whole book about the traumatized lives of various writers--delving into all sorts of psychojargon, but that's as far as he can go, a kind of vicarious therapy.  

Greta