Author Topic: Terri Schiavo and narcissism  (Read 8991 times)

bunny as guest

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Terri Schiavo and narcissism
« Reply #30 on: April 04, 2005, 07:37:09 PM »
stormchild,

I don't think the post about projection was in response to your story. It was in response to the Terry Shiavo part of the thread.

Your story is so harrowing and traumatic that it may take people (me included) a while to recover from feeling triggered or upset by it. So please hang in there. Some of us (incl. me) have also seen elderly parents/relations die in the hospital and it may bring back memories.

bunny

Stormchild Guesting

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Terri Schiavo and narcissism
« Reply #31 on: April 04, 2005, 07:49:28 PM »
Thanks Vunil.

I've noticed in the past that when I post advice it's appreciated, and when I post jokes they're enjoyed, but when I post about my own personal pain it's largely been ignored unless I've started a thread specifically for that purpose.

This seems very strange, since people have been very supportive re Sophie, for instance, and have encouraged me to post about my past; and the first thread I started here was one of the best experiences I've ever had.

I've not been trying to hijack anyone else's thread - rather, I'm very shy about disclosing these things, it takes a lot for me to do it, precisely because I've been ignored or trivialized whenever I have done so in face to face situations. So I've generally posted only when my experience seems relevant to someone else's. To find that experience being ignored in response, and the voicelessness essentially being repeated here, has been painful.

I would say that posting in response to others' experience may have been a mistake, except for the fact that when others do this, their pain IS acknowledged. So I'm stumped, frankly.

thanks again.

vunil

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Terri Schiavo and narcissism
« Reply #32 on: April 04, 2005, 08:25:38 PM »
Hi, Stormy (you need a nickname, I think)--

I think that you just need to give it a little more time.  Your memory was overwhelming!  I'd never even heard of such behavior.  And here we are thinking about poor Terri and death and euthanasia and then Mudpup brings this nazis marching in and it just was all very swamping to the mind and soul.  And it was in the middle of the work day.

I have found that my posts in response to others' posts get less response-- I've posted -lots- of really painful personal stuff in a thread I didn't start that doesn't get responses.  I figure it got emotional responses and it helped me to write it, but something about the way everything was flowing didn't get people to write.  


Please don't think that this listserv experience is somehow reflective of some larger truths about you or your past or whatever.  

We are all dealing with really heavy stuff, doing the best we can.

Also, I reread everything and I was trying to map your experience onto the Schiavo experience and I got confused.  I don't think that matters-- I care a lot more about you than about them, because the whole world is figuring out their situation and they never asked me for help.  

But maybe our little brains got confused.

So maybe help us along toward understanding?  Or start another thread (this one is dying anyway, I think)?

bunny

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Terri Schiavo and narcissism
« Reply #33 on: April 04, 2005, 10:04:57 PM »
Quote from: Stormchild Guesting
I've noticed in the past that when I post advice it's appreciated, and when I post jokes they're enjoyed, but when I post about my own personal pain it's largely been ignored unless I've started a thread specifically for that purpose.


I think it's optimal to start a new thread otherwise your story can get lost in the shuffle, and people's minds aren't focused on it.

My assumption is that people are not ignoring you, but they didn't know what to say, or were triggered themselves, or are thinking about a response.

I hardly talk about myself at all because I could literally not tolerate it if I got the wrong response. So I only talk about myself parenthetically, when it is likely to be almost unnoticed. If I wanted people to pay attention I would definitely start my own thread.

bunny

write

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personal pain
« Reply #34 on: April 05, 2005, 08:09:51 AM »
I think this is a case which touches most of us: we all have to meet death in some context, and many of us have been in the position of making difficult choices for loved ones.

My husband's aunt said 'let me die' then a few weeks later after a most undignified NHS stay I was asked 'do you want her to be artificially fed?'
It just happened to be my visiting day in the family that day.
It wasn't hard to make my choice, though of course many times in the wee small hours I have questionned myself and hoped I was doing what she wanted.

After her death I organised the funeral in a way to try and bring some closure and peace to the family...that's another issue people find difficult. Many family rifts begin with these emotionally charged events and not finding a voice for what needs to be said.

I say so long as what you say is thoughtful and compassionate- for there are many ways to convey words- and one way lies healing, another causes more pain- but speak. Speak kindly, speak softly, but let it be said.

I have consciously decided that whatever life brings I want to deal with it positively, but 'and thou do no harm' is all-important. I can't explain it, but I know it is.

Especially for people who have already been harmed by the legacy of another generation's emotional baggage. We need to find the way out of behaving badly to assuage pain: and though so many times I have felt powerless or voiceless or inconsequential...I know now that I am the trail-blazer for the generations to come, because I said 'stop!' and 'I won't live this way'....

Kaz

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Terri Schiavo and narcissism
« Reply #35 on: April 05, 2005, 08:55:56 AM »
Stormchild, you are upset because you didn't get a response. I am upset and offended by what you wrote
Quote
nurses are just as capable of spreading malicious lies and fabrications, and generating there own, as anyone else.

because I am a nurse.
My foremost obligation is to the comfort and care of my patient, whoever they are. If there are family problems which may impinge upon ongoing care, the social worker is called upon.
Don't lump us all in the same basket.
I'm sorry you had a bad experience, some nurses should not be nurses.

Stormchild

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Not for the Squeamish
« Reply #36 on: April 05, 2005, 12:17:30 PM »
This post is not for the squeamish. It contains a great deal of clinical detail and some extremely emotionally distressing situations. And mild profanity.

In 1997, after my father passed away in June, I found out in September that the back pain I'd been having for a few months was the result of possibly malignant uterine tumors that were so large they had begun to compromise my kidney function. I was going to die unless I had radical surgery.

I went to a hospital that had a sterling reputation for this type of surgery. I did an advance blood donation for myself, etc. The surgery itself went well. However, 12 hours later, at about 10 PM, I had a severe abdominal spasm. I saw my abdomen rise and rise and rise and finally felt something tear inside. This was on a morphine PCA drip, and I still felt pain.

The nurses blew it off.

I knew I was hemorrhaging.

They continued to ignore me, claiming that my mind was fuddled by the morpine. I responded that I am a paradoxical reactor, and that morphine is, for me, a stimulant. They refused even to look at my chart, where I had clearly told the anaesthesiologist this fact and asked that it be noted for reference.

I realized that these people were going to let me bleed to death, rather than paying any attention to what I said, apparently for no other reason than to show me that I could not tell them what to do.

I asked that my doctor be contacted, and this was refused. I tried calling them myself, and got blown off by the answering service, which asserted that the hospital was the only one who could place such a call (so help me.) So I pulled myself up into the tightest 'tuck' position I could, reasoning that if I could minimize my internal abdominal volume, I would perhaps stop bleeding before I died. I kept myself awake all night long by using the morphine continuously.

In the meantime, my lactated Ringer's IV drip was going like a firehose. You'd think these fine professionals would have noticed that, wouldn't you. No, I had to page them repeatedly to get it replaced as I went through one bag after another after another. Did they ever think even for a second about what it might mean? Of course not, that would have meant acknowledging that the patient they were snubbing and ignoring actually understood correctly what was going on.

By 8 am, I had a hammer pulse and a headache, on morphine, remember. The shift changed and the day nurse came in. I told her what had been happening and asked her to contact the primary surgeon. Instead she asked what I do for a living, and I told her (I have been in the healthcare allied industry since 1983, have a PhD). Her response was - and I QUOTE: "Oh, so that's why you're such a neurotic." Then she flounced out of the room with her nose in the air, clearly very pleased at having "won" some sort of sick, mean contest.

THANK GOD, I had had a small piece of elective surgery done. I had a lipoma removed that had been bothering me for years, joking that I might as well lose something else that I wouldn't miss at all. A different surgeon had handled this. He showed up to look at me about 5 minutes after this other fine healthcare professional departed, and I told him what I'd told her, including a description of her reaction.

He did something amazing and radical, and actually took my pulse. And immediately started screaming for an EKG and the lab.

Yeah, I'd been hemorrhaging all right. My hematocrit went from 45 preop to 19 by the time they tested me that morning. I barely survived. Especially because I have asthma and a congenital heart valve abnormality also, which I was also trying to get the night staff to confirm by looking at my chart, with similar success. Hypoxia or hypovolemia = death sentence. At this point, most of my bloodstream was lactated Ringer's.

After that, it took them 12 hours to get around to giving me my own autologous packed red cells. The minister of the church I was attending made it in to give me last rites faster than they managed to get me my own blood back.

Then, after I had my morphine discontinued, they kept trying to push NSAIDS (with anticoagulant effects) onto me for pain, and getting ticked at me when I refused to take them because of the anticoagulant effect. (Duh, like I could afford any more bleeding, whatsoever.)

When I asked for prophy ABs because of the massive amount of intraabdominal bleeding and risk of sepsis, they laughed and refused, whereupon I became septic within 3 days. They'd tried to send me home one day before this happened, but I refused to go because I was too week to stand unassisted, and my Nmom and Nsib weren't about to do anything to help me at home.

So they ended up having to put me on IV antibiotics, and I ended up in that hellhole for ten days.

They fired the nurse who called me a neurotic. The rest of the nursing staff were as mean as humanly possible to me (God forbid they should admit I was right and some of their own had done something inexcusable), except for the ICU nurses who supervised my transfusions and were very supportive. Later, I found out that I should haver been moved to the ICU as soon as my low crit was confirmed.

Sorry you were offended, Kaz. Apparently, you've never known nurses like the ones I've encountered. Good for you. I know some wonderful NIC nurses personally, as well as some really fantastic RNs, LPNs, and psychiatric nurses. I wish I were as lucky in the ones I encountered professionally in this particular situation. It would only have taken one.

But I was nearly killed, by deliberate and malicious negligence on the part of people whose job it was to help me and protect me. One can't invalidate that merely by finding my awareness of it offensive.

I wonder just how many meeker, less clinically educated, more easily intimidated people have died because of stuff like this?

The hospital went bankrupt three months after I escaped. One could argue, I suppose, that morale was terrible while I was there. So what? Nothing I did justified the treatment I received.

Anonymous

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Terri Schiavo and narcissism
« Reply #37 on: April 05, 2005, 01:11:30 PM »
Holy Toledo Stormchild, they probably went bankrupt because of malpractice lawsuits. :roll:
Maybe thats why 100,000 people supposedly die unnecessarily in hospitals every year.
Like you Stormy I know several great nurses who are dedicated to a fault. Three are close friends. My SIL is studying to become one and is a very conscientious person. I'm sure most are, but like every other profession there are bad apples. And sometimes they grow in a clump, as your's did.
This attitude is something I have noticed as a very widespread human behavior. Many people cannot stand having someone give them a suggestion on how to do their job, even if the patient, client etc. is in a position to know better. Even if its offered in the most polite harmless manner possible, as only a possibility to consider. Even if the professional is an incompetent boob. Especially if they're an incompetent boob. Or an N. I have had this expereience with the IRS, doctors, mechanics, and lawyers.
Sorry to hear about your near death experience. Most people don't have to save themselves from one. Most people wouldn't have known what to do. Most people, I guess, would be dead. Glad you're not. :D

Mud

Stormchild

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Terri Schiavo and narcissism
« Reply #38 on: April 05, 2005, 01:32:47 PM »
Thanks mud.

you're right about the job defensiveness thing. i was extremely careful at first during this mess to be as calm, neutral voiced, and non-aggressive as i could, and it did no good at all. talk about a double bind. when i was calm, i was ignored, and when i stopped being calm, i was snubbed and ignored because i was 'ranting' or 'fuddled'. and when i gave my credentials, i was taunted and called neurotic.

i never even tried to bring a lawsuit myself. i was severely anemic for several months after i got out of hospital and too tired and weak to even contemplate it. just as well, since they went bankrupt anyway, eh.

are you aware that hospitals are actively resisting pressure from Federal agencies and some other organizations to voluntarily report surgical and medication errors? largely from a fear of liability, but the fact still makes my regenerated blood run cold.

and the most loving person i know in the entire world... human  person that is... is a former psychiatric nurse turned clinical psychologist. i began seeing her after i could drive again, specifically to recover from this episode. she was a tremendous help. she has retired, and tho my current t is a gem, i do miss her terribly.

Anonymous

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Terri Schiavo and narcissism
« Reply #39 on: April 05, 2005, 02:43:26 PM »
My experience with hospitals and nursing homes (not as a patient but as a relative) is that unless the patient has some outside advocates like family members, they will probably die. My greatest fear is to be in that situation, which is likely, as I have no children. I just hope I die first, hit by a truck or something.

bunny

Anonymous

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Terri Schiavo and narcissism
« Reply #40 on: April 05, 2005, 02:45:57 PM »
Quote
are you aware that hospitals are actively resisting pressure from Federal agencies and some other organizations to voluntarily report surgical and medication errors?

Not to begin a bash the hospital thread, but yeah I have read that. It was in an article about unnecessary infections in hospitals. It suggested revolutionary procedures, like compulsary washing of hands between patients. And there is a vast difference in hospitals. Some are great some aren't. I get to know the ingredients in my Pop Tarts, how come I can't know which hospital kills its patients and which one doesn't? :?

mud

Stormchild

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Terri Schiavo and narcissism
« Reply #41 on: April 05, 2005, 03:10:47 PM »
Hospital anti-bashing coming right up!

After my debacle, three different people I know went to a DIFFERENT hospital in our area for surgery or critical inpatient care... two went for  surgery in the same general area as mine, but different kinds of stuff... and those two made their choice partly based on knowing what happened to me. [the place i was at did not close, it simply changed hands and names, like valujet.]

these people all received an extremely high standard of care, were attended to attentively, one had complications -- which were nipped in the bud! my hat's off to the staff at this place, they were absolutely A-#1-outstanding.

but folks really ought to be able to find this stuff out without having to know people who've 'been there'. just imagine if all hospitals were as good as this one -- and it's entirely possible! that's the saddest part. it's entirely possible.

Greta

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Terri Schiavo and narcissism
« Reply #42 on: April 05, 2005, 03:32:30 PM »
I did not intend to give a lecture on projections, and I was not responding to Stormchild's message--I'm sorry if it did come out as a lecture.  I was trying to describe my own experience.  Stormchild, your description of what you suffered under your mother blew me away, and it was too hard for me to respond specifically to your observations, because of my own issues and struggles, and feeling like nothing I could say would be of any use, and it seemed to deserve its own thread, not one under the Terry Schiavo topic.  I didn't post for almost a year to this board because I feel so vulnerable about contributing to discussions.  And right now it's hard not to feel like I obviously am not good at sharing my experience.  I have found people on this board wonderfully empathetic.  

Greta

October

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Re: !
« Reply #43 on: April 05, 2005, 03:35:12 PM »
Quote from: Stormchild Guesting


Dammit, none of us knows the truth here. But I can tell you that nurses are just as capable of spreading malicious lies and fabrications, and generating there own, as anyone else. I know!!!!!!

 :evil:  :evil:  :evil:  :evil:  :evil:


((((Storm)))))

You are right on this one.  I know it for a fact because my Nmum used to be a nurse.

This is rather off topic, but illustrative of the point.  My mum had problems several years ago, when I was a teenager, with the change.  She was told by her GP to take a pregnancy test, and she came to me, in considerable distress.  She told me what had happened, and said that she didn't want to go to the hospital for a pregnancy test, because the nurses would laugh at her in the same way as she and her mates used to laugh at the old ladies coming for prenancy tests when she was a nurse.  OK for her to do it to others ...

The end of the story is that I told her about do it yourself kits from the chemist, which she had never heard of, and she was too embarrassed to buy one, so I went into the local chemist, and bought one, while she waited outside.  I didn't care what anyone thought, but mum did.  And she preferred them to think it was for me than for her.  

You couldn't make this stuff up, could you!!!!!!!   :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

To get back on track somewhat, Ns like nursing.  It gives them a lot of power, and a lot of superiority.  They can appear compassionate, but underneath they despise their patients, and the relatives, as inferior beings.   :?

Stormchild Guesting

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Thanks Greta & October & bunny & all
« Reply #44 on: April 05, 2005, 07:58:32 PM »
Thanks Greta, I clearly really misunderstood your post and for that I apologize with all my heart. Thanks for coming back and clearing it up.

I do believe you. Please keep posting. What you said has a lot of validity, if I look at it with proper detachment. It was my error to personalize it. Forgive me, please?

October, I understand what you mean, and I am so sorry that you have had these experiences with your mother and then, on top of that, she's in one of the caring professions, while being such an N. How horribly confusing that must have been for you. And painful.

bunny, when i was in school i never understood why my grandparents were so afraid of hospitals and nursing homes. i wonder if what i went through may explain some of it, but i'll never know for sure. you really do need an advocate - it's the ultimate place of voicelessness. or can be.

(((Greta)))

(((October)))

(((bunny)))

It has been a very healing experience for me, posting here today and yesterday, being answered and answering back. in spite of all the intense feelings I had and expressed. Now  I feel very humbled, but somehow also clean, as though there was soil on my heart from that experience, and it's gone now.

I'm sorry I totally reoriented the thread. Anything else I feel a need to say I'll start a new thread for (and I will try to be good, and not do this to someone else's poor innocent thread again - smile).

Thanks again for your patience and your honesty and your help. This was a very significant day in my life. That sounds like fancy talk, but it isn't. I think I received a sacrament here today, from you.

Thanks.

storm